TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Wear-in not a factor at 30K miles? Wear-in is only half-way done...

finklejag: that looks like a good fit for a gasser 5w30 imo. Add pack is definitely SM compliant.

Compared to previous TDI's, it looks like a "normal" level of Al in these engines is going to be higher and that Fe levels are going to be lower than the PD's. Given the TBN of 2.3, I would not run these VW 507.00 oils longer than 10k miles without some supporting oil analysis. I typically use a condemnation limit of 2.0 on the TBN from Blackstone Labs (4.0 from other labs), in the interest of long term deposit control.

The high level of potassium bothers me...that stuff from the new engine should have flushed out by now, unless you are using contaminated bio-diesel. I'd like to hear from VWOA about the source of that...?

TS

TooSlick said:

The high level of potassium bothers me...that stuff from the new engine should have flushed out by now, unless you are using contaminated bio-diesel. I'd like to hear from VWOA about the source of that...?

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Obviously the factory fill has lots of potassium for some reason, so it must not be harmful -- only if it suddenly appears later on because of fuel or coolant contamination. Since that's not the case here, I don't consider it a cause for worry. No matter whether you drain from the bottom or use a topside extractor, there's always going to be some residual oil hiding in the engine.

IMO the aluminum should keep dropping toward <10 ppm over the next couple oil changes, and the potassium down to ~20 and eventually ~5. Maybe test again in 20k or 30k miles?

2009 TDI OCI "Universal Averages"

I was a little bored this evening and decided to gather some info from all the 2009 oil changes that I could find in this thread. Granted, all these OC samples are on new engines, but I figured the data might be of interest to some of you. Many owners were/are changing their oil sooner than the recommended 10K. Based on my 1st OA and looking at a few others, I am glad I changed early at 5,500 miles. Getting rid of that "junk" early was a wise decision IMHO. Based on 30 OC's from 2009 owners/members, here's the "universal average" I came up with.
Average miles on oil samples: 6,721
Average miles on engine: 10,414
Aluminum 51.5
Chromium 2.2
Iron 49.1
Copper 30.6
Lead 1.7
Tin .8
Molybdenum 4.8
Nickel .8
Manganese 4.6
Silver 0
Titanium 1.3
Potassium 140.5
Boron 5.6
Silicon 22
Sodium 6.7
Calcium 1,337
Magnesium 9.5
Phosphorus 672
Zinc 810
Barium .7
SUS Viscosity @210F 62.3
cST Viscosity @100 C 10.9
Flashpoint 420
TBN 3.4

Earlier versions of the TDI engine didn't show this much Al, even when they had low miles on them. I predict a fully worn in CBEA engine will have Aluminum levels in the 15-20 ppm range after a 10k service interval, which is still very low. Iron levels should be lower than for the PD engines, probably in the 30-40 ppm range, depending on the # of soot/silicon in the sample. Those are excellent values for a HiPo diesel engine running a low viscosity oil.

The weak point of these engines will probably be the reliability/durability of the very complex (and costly), emissions control system & not the basic engine design & metallurgy.

TS

5100 miles / 100 hours



VOA for comparison:

So you claim that your Zn and P levels increased after being run for 5100 miles?!

hid3 said:

So you claim that your Zn and P levels increased after being run for 5100 miles?!

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Lab error on the VOA probably, as the additive levels in the UOA match what Mobil says are in this oil as well as the specs it meets.

hid3 said:

So you claim that your Zn and P levels increased after being run for 5100 miles?!

Click to expand...

If I recall correctly his previous OCI was with M1 TDT, which has higher ZDDP levels, so there was probably enough left in the crankcase to get a small bump on the next OCI.

bob_fout your best result was the 9500 mile run a while back, as far as wear PPM per mile. But the M1 0w40 did reasonably well. What diesel ratings does it carry? CF?

brons2 said:

If I recall correctly his previous OCI was with M1 TDT, which has higher ZDDP levels, so there was probably enough left in the crankcase to get a small bump on the next OCI.

bob_fout your best result was the 9500 mile run a while back, as far as wear PPM per mile. But the M1 0w40 did reasonably well. What diesel ratings does it carry? CF?

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Given the conditions (10 mile short trips at 5*F to 30*F, going right to the Interstate at 70 to 80 MPH on a cold engine), this oil did very well.

Previous oil was Amsoil DEO (old style)

For diesel specs, it carries VW 505.00, MB 229.5, ACEA B3/B4, GM-LL-B-025. Oh and CF, an irrelevant spec.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

Bobs' data includes Delvac 1, the Amsoil DEO/5w-40 and now the Mobil 0w-40. His engine seems to do well on just about anything.... I'd like to see him try the Castrol 0w-30 the next time around.

TS

TooSlick said:

Bobs' data includes Delvac 1, the Amsoil DEO/5w-40 and now the Mobil 0w-40. His engine seems to do well on just about anything.... I'd like to see him try the Castrol 0w-30 the next time around.

TS

Click to expand...

I can't decide . Syntec 0w30, Redline 0w40, Royal Purple 0w40, Amsoil DEO 5w40.

Keep in mind this engine has been at 45% to 70% more than stock output for a while, soon to be 100%.

Bob_Fout said:

I can't decide . Syntec 0w30, Redline 0w40, Royal Purple 0w40, Amsoil DEO 5w40.

Keep in mind this engine has been at 45% to 70% more than stock output for a while, soon to be 100%.

Click to expand...

>> off topic
Bob, you still running the stock turbo?

later
Tony

oEo said:

Bob, you still running the stock turbo?

later
Tony

Click to expand...

For another 2 days, yes. 17/22 going in on Sat.

This is my first UOA. Oil (M1 ESP) has been changed every 10k. Wondering why the Molybendenum & Boron are so high?


Comments: Wear was generally above average in the first sample from your Jetta. The long oil run likely contributed to the excess wear, especially if long runs have been the norm for your 1.9L. If this is just the third oil out of your engine then we could be seeing the last remnants of break-in. The high aluminum and iron show excess wear at the pistons and cylinders, while copper comes from brass/bronze parts. No contaminants were found. Universal averages are based on an oil run of 8,000 miles. Check back at your next oil change to monitor. Wear should improve nicely.

Miles on oil sample: 10,000
Average miles on engine: 29,000
Aluminum 18
Chromium 2
Iron 48
Copper 8
Lead 1
Tin 0
Molybdenum 85
Nickel 1
Manganese 1
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 40
Boron 98
Silicon 7
Sodium 5
Calcium 1,139
Magnesium 8
Phosphorus 752
Zinc 961
Barium 0
SUS Viscosity @210F 65.2
cST Viscosity @100 C 11.67
Flashpoint 450
TBN Blank

Elfnmagik said:

This is my first UOA. Oil (M1 ESP) has been changed every 10k. Wondering why the Molybendenum & Boron are so high?

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You are still seeing residual additive levels from the factory fill -- the high potassium number proves that.

So the wear metals numbers are also high because of residual wear during the break-in period.

Just consider this as a baseline UOA for future testing. You should never see numbers this bad again, they will just keep getting better and better unless something goes wrong. But there's nothing wrong with your engine now, and no need to worry about the 10k-mile OCI.

I haven't looked at the virgin oil test results on the M1 ESP Formula 5w30, but those are healthy amounts of moly and boron so you should not have to add any extra.

Moly and Boron are additives, not wear metals. Too bad there's no TBN too.

Blackstone needs to know it's a 2.0L TDI also, not a 1.9L.

Looks typical of a low mileage 2.0L, CBEA engine...

The potassium ("K"), will dissipate over time - it's some sort of corrosion inhibitor that's inside the engine from the factory. The Al and Fe will drop by perhaps 10%-20% with additional engine miles. The Mobil 1/ESP uses both moly & boron as part of the additive chemistry. (The boron levels will drop the longer you run the same batch of oil; moly will stay about the same ppm concentration as in the un-used oil.)

No issues here and the flashpoint of the used oil is nice & high @ +450F, so there's little or no fuel dilution. A 10,000 mile service interval under these driving conditions will be fine.

TS

Bob_Fout said:

Blackstone needs to know it's a 2.0L TDI also, not a 1.9L.

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Yeah, I don't know how they goofed that but I thought the same. How would this change their opinions/comments?

The comments from Blackstone Labs generally have very little value. This is a fairly new engine and the wear metals would naturally be a bit high even if it was a 1.9L model.

Re-test this engine when you have 50k miles and you should see what the stabilized wear pattern looks like....

TS

Elfnmagik said:

Yeah, I don't know how they goofed that but I thought the same. How would this change their opinions/comments?

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I meant for their database of what "normal" should be at various mileage across the board for different engines.

My first sample ever on the car so I don't have a baseline. Also the first sample post cam/bearing break in

05.5 Jetta
103,000 miles on the car
12,000 on the oil [Amsoil 5w40]
Severity Reoport - Abnormal


Iron 51
Chromium 1
Nickel 0
Aluminum 10
Copper 10
Lead 38 *
Tin 6 *
Cadium 0
Silver 0
Vandium 0
Silicon 4
Sodium 5
Postassium 6
Titanium 0
Molybdenum 185*
Antimony 0
Manganese 0
Lithium 0
Boron 36
Magnesium 23
Calcium 1489
Barium 0
Phosphorous 887*
Zinc 1019*

Fuel 1.3%
Soot .3%
Water <.1
Vis 100C 11.5 *

TBN Total Base 3.53
I-R Oxida 31
I-R Nitra 22

It looks like you still have residual break in metals in this sample. For example there is no moly in the Amsoil additive chemistry, so this must be some assembly lube showing up. The Pb & Sn is from the new bearings and should also drop way down. Oil condition is about what I'd expect after 12,000 miles, with a starting TBN of 8-9.

How many miles since the new parts were installed?

TS

TooSlick said:

How many miles since the new parts were installed?

TS

Click to expand...

I did a break in with racing oil for 20 or 30 min changed the oil and filter.

I'd do 1-2 short runs of 5000-6000 miles to get the residual wear metals out of there. Then go back to the full 10,000 mile interval. The Fe & Al levels already look normal, which is a good sign.

Amsoils 5w-40, HD diesel oil (product code: "DEO"), might work even better in thus application. It's about 10% thicker than their Euro oil and has an even higher level of anti-wear additives. Something to consider....

TS

TooSlick said:

I'd do 1-2 short runs of 5000-6000 miles to get the residual wear metals out of there. Then go back to the full 10,000 mile interval. The Fe & Al levels already look normal, which is a good sign.

Amsoils 5w-40, HD diesel oil (product code: "DEO"), might work even better in thus application. It's about 10% thicker than their Euro oil and has an even higher level of anti-wear additives. Something to consider....

TS

Click to expand...

I'll take my next sample at 6,000 to see where things are at and go from there. I'll check out the "DEO" stuff for the next change too.

nic_a_bod said:

I'll take my next sample at 6,000 to see where things are at and go from there. I'll check out the "DEO" stuff for the next change too.

Click to expand...

Based on anecdotal evidence only, from other TDI owners posting here, I think Amsoil is not as good a choice for TDI owners as it was 5 or 6 years ago. Amsoil has not gotten worse, but other oil choices have gotten better.

When I see a lot of lead in a UOA report, and Amsoil at the top of the page, I cannot help but think there is a connection.

I'd have to suspect the lead is tied to the recent mechanical work, and to a lesser extent the 1.3% fuel dilution. The TBN is not low enough in this sample to be the source of corrosive bearing wear.

TS

First UOA on a new 09 TDI. 9,997 miles. I made sure to specify it was a 2.0 TDI on the factory fill of 507.00 oil.

Comments: A lot of wear, potassium and silicon turned up here and depending on how old this engine is, these may all
be normal. If the engine is new (less than 15,000 miles), then most of the wear is likely from wear-in of new parts,
while silicon is from sealers and potassium is a factory leftover. If not, you appear to be getting some excess wear, and
silicon may be a factor if it's from dirt, so check the air filter. Potassium may show a little anti-freeze as well. Universal
averages show normal wear after ~6,500 miles. Check back at the next regular oil change for another look.

Aluminum: 26
Chromium: 2
Iron: 70
Copper: 40
Lead: 2
Tin: 2
Molybdenum: 2
Nickel: 1
Manganese: 8
Silver: 0
Titanium: 0
Potassium: 55
Boron: 2
Silicon: 26
Sodium: 5
Calcium: 1723
Magnesium: 9
Phosphorus: 677
Zinc: 908
Barium: 0

SUS Viscosity @ 210°F: 66.4
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C: 11.99
Flashpoint in °F: 415
Fuel %: <0.5
Antifreeze %: ?
Water %: 0.0
Insolubles %: 0.2

Three questions:

What are the two viscosities (SUS and cSt)?

Could the 0.5 fuel be related to B5 usage?

And finally, Why the "?" in the antifreeze column?