TDI cams revisited

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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First of all, do not interpret what I post below as being any kind of "advice". You need to do the homework yourself, and I won't be responsible if you go ahead and do anything that comes out of what you read.

I have maintained a database of about 80 OEM and aftermarket camshafts for 8V VWs, both gasser and Diesel, for about the last 6 years. Many of the physical dimensions between gasser- and diesel VWs are similar if not identical, and this is also true spanning over the generations of VW engines since the 1970s until today.

There's a question about whether some aftermarket gasser camshaft profiles will work in a TDI or not. Having done a lot of analysis (although admittedly no testing in hardware), I can say that they won't, at least not without significant clearancing of the piston valve pockets, and likely also the lifter bosses. Even if you were able to get on to physically fit without interference, the engine will likely run very poorly with it.

However, several years ago, tdi rs let on from his experience of using a gasser VW 8V cam, that certain gasser cams will not only fit on the TDI, but run pretty well...

So, I'm here to propose to anyone who wants to try it... to try to get a camshaft from the A3 2.0 8V (048 109 101D). Alternatively, 050 109 101A, 026 109 101G, 026 109 101A, in roughly that order.

The secret no cam vendor will tell you is that these OEM cams have almost the same timings as cams being sold as aftermarket TDI performance upgrades. I'm not for a second saying that they are using exactly the same camshafts and simply re-packaging them; what I AM saying is that the publicly-available cam timings are, as I have analysed, very similar. If nothing else, you get a nice bonus of extra valve lift. Stock TDI is about 8.5mm; the above listed cams start at around 10mm (.393"), and go bigger from there.



Let me warn again: this is NOT a bolt-on!! It has not be tried by myself! Machining work will likely be required to the cam, cylinder head, and/or pistons!
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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In the table pic above, the column In. open @ .050 gives an indication of valve overlap and the amount of clearance between the valves and piston at TDC.

Any camshaft with a non-negative value implies valve overlap. You can forget about using these cams in a TDI because a) you don't have the clearance for it; b) even if you modded the pistons to clear the valves, it will run like crap.

My own experience (...) have shown the threshold of valve/piston contact to be around -8° BTDC @ .050". Any more will require clearancing. If you're close to this threshhold, to be absolutely sure, the best thing to do is to place Plastigages over the valve relief pockets; bolt-on the cylinder heads; and turn the engine over by hand at least a few full turns. Then pull the head and inspect the result of the Plastigages.

Like I said, any cam that opens the valves earlier than 8° ATDC will need to have the piston valve reliefs machined deeper to accommodate. For a turbocharged engine, more overlap is not usually a good thing.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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Rub87 said:
AHU cam and ASV cam is not the same..
I know... this is one of the differences (note the slot widths):


Also, as a tease, a tiny part of my cam database:
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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One of the problems of using the gas cam is the different fitment to the sprocket. The gas engines use a keyway while the TDI uses a tapered fitting and aligns the cam by a slot in the free-end to a reference surface (the cam cover sealing surface -- see picture in post #3 above).

One way this could be solved is by taking a junked TDI cam and cut off the tapered nose, and bore/ream a hole and shrink-fit it over the gas cam. Alternatively, one could fabricate an adapter sleeve from steel. Alignment could be achieve by cutting opposite grooves on the sprocket flange shoulder that is aligned to cam TDC (I think the key serves the purpose of alignment in the gas cams), and align these grooves to some reference surface (again, the valve cover sealing surface). If necessary, corresponding grooves could also be cut onto the sprocket as an alignment aid. Below is a picture of what I mean.



Or, you simply determine cylinder #1 cam TDC and machine a slot on the free-end so that you can align it by the usual procedure.

Also, I did some calculations and determined cam timings at 1mm lift for each of the gas cams, and I compare this to OE cams for the AAZ (1.9 IDI), AEY (1.9 SDI), 1Z/AHU and ALH/AHF. For what is probably the first time, you can see an apples-to-apples comparison of the full camshaft specs for all the above cams, plus for comparison, one of my experimental profiles for simulation (this is NOT what went to production).

 
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shortysclimbin

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Oct 15, 2004
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Virginia currently
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Kubvan, mk2 golf, mk6 golf
I am in hopes to have data on the 048 101 109D ABA cam here in a few months... I could also put it into my mk3 but I rather wait. I would stress to people that some clearancing was done on my pistons but it may or may not need to be done. I did it to open things up to oem heat clearancing specs. You Might be able to put this cam in an oem car with little to no mods. My speculations are that it might run a little rough at idle and have starting issues, but it should open things up for us pushing 2-5.5k rpm ranges.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I am reviving this thread because I'm looking for a better cam for my Golf and may not be able to wait until Q2 for something to appear. My questions:

- Will and AAZ cam fit in an ALH without modifications?
- Would this cam provide any performance improvement for an ALH?
- How does the data above look for an SDI cam? Would this cam help?

I'm focusing on cams that are inexpensive in the aftermarket, and (preferably) ones that are available now in North America. The SDI isn't available here, but I probably can get some here without much difficulty.

TIA for your thoughts. I'm porting the head and adding firmer, double valve springs. Other than that no head mods planned. If I don't find anything good I'll stick with the stock cam for now.
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
Like TDIMeister said to me at one stage "just buy the Dbilas sports 260 cam and be done" its should give you all the performance benifits a cam for our tdi's can handle P&P with out any modifications having to be done.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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What about the Colombo-Bariani 260? What are the pros and cons of one of these versus the other? They look pretty similar.
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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mk3 tdi golf
Quote...http://www.colombo-bariani.com/catalogo.php?lang=eng
Road medium 9.4 8.6 260°/252° 110°/110° 20°/60°-56°/16° 0.6/0.4 H.T.

If this is the cam/spec you were refering too then i would say that the dbilas cam would give more......and if i'm reading it correctly the lift given is 9.4mm lift and 260 d's duration inlet / and 8.6mm lift and 252 d's duration exhaust...

Dbilas cam spec's is 9.9mm and 260 duration inlet/exhaust
 
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mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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mk3 tdi golf
IndigoBlueWagon said:
I am reviving this thread because I'm looking for a better cam for my Golf and may not be able to wait until Q2 for something to appear. My questions:

- Will and AAZ cam fit in an ALH without modifications?
- Would this cam provide any performance improvement for an ALH?
- How does the data above look for an SDI cam? Would this cam help?

I'm focusing on cams that are inexpensive in the aftermarket, and (preferably) ones that are available now in North America. The SDI isn't available here, but I probably can get some here without much difficulty.

TIA for your thoughts. I'm porting the head and adding firmer, double valve springs. Other than that no head mods planned. If I don't find anything good I'll stick with the stock cam for now.


So IndigoBlueWagon which one of the 2 cams are you more persuaded to go with now you've been in formed of which is best!!:rolleyes:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Don't know. I might try something else entirely. It partly depends on price/availability. Are the dbilas cams available?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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mk3 tdi golf
Rub87 said:
how's your cam going mojo?.
Pm sent!

Quote....Don't know. I might try something else entirely. It partly depends on price/availability. Are the dbilas cams available

There's nothing else out there available although there is supposed to be a couple in the pipeline if enough people commit to buying one but i havn't heard anything recently about TdiMeisters cam.........and if you were only thinking out a load i understand.....but i definetly wouldn't be going for this one!!http://www.colombo-bariani.com/catalogo.php?lang=eng
 
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Rub87

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Wonder why they(re running so little lift on the exh side.. with my ported head the exh keeps gaining quite some flow until 10.2mm (didn't test more)
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
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Rub87 said:
Wonder why they(re running so little lift on the exh side.. with my ported head the exh keeps gaining quite some flow until 10.2mm (didn't test more)

I think its because that cam/spec was made some time ago and they didn't want to go too far i think its more or less oe on the exhaust side @ 8.6mm lift........i think depending on what mods were done on a car using this cam would have been better off using 8.6mm inlet and the 9.4mm on the exhaust side.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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TTT. Don't know if this link will work (subscription access), but there's a bit about recommendations for initial-start and break-in of a new cam.

http://bit.ly/rQjcaW
It is sometimes easy to forget that after all the efforts a cam manufacturer makes in producing his products, the greatest cause of failure is not in the installation or its timing but in the first few seconds and minutes of its active life.​
Also wanted to tie this "revisited" thread to my original.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
bumping this up for a bit of info....I'm currently running an AAZ in my 82 vanagon ...wondering if an ALH cam would provide any low rpm torque increase in the AAZ ?....I have a good ALH cam on the shelf and it would be a quick job to swap it out
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Bumping this with some info on the gasser cams. Whole pile of 2.0 8v gas motors at the junkyard so I pulled a couple. One from a Mk3 one from a Mk4, thinking they'd be different (then I read somewhere that OBD2 cars got one cam, OBD1 cars got a different one)

Anyways, got to fiddling around with the V-blocks and an indicator. The things have .420" of lift, and clear the tappet bosses just fine. The base circle is absolutely tiny compared to the diesel cams. Good thing because the diesel valvesprings would coil-bind long before max lift. So, longer valves, longer valvesprings, and still likely won't work without robbing a bunch of usable air the combustion chamber in the piston with massive valve reliefs.

A really neat idea, but I don't think I'm going to try anything with it beyond the look I took.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
9.9mm works fine without deepening the pockets so 10.6mm should also do depending on the amount of overlap.. How much difference is there in base circle?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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MN
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02 golf ALH
9.9mm works fine without deepening the pockets so 10.6mm should also do depending on the amount of overlap.. How much difference is there in base circle?
I might have numbers tomorrow, got them written down in the shop... 10 miles away.

I looked at a valvespring, and the stock ones would not work at all, something like 0.060" past coil bind from a 1.20" installed height.
Thus the longer valves for longer springs to match the smaller base circle.

The gas motors actually have shorter valves, but they're higher in the head due to having a combustion chamber in there.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
U can get the rostens springs with thinner wire, they allow more lift. On a PD you run into retainer against stem seal first.

You could also slightly deepen the spring seat surface in the head if u dont plan to run high rpm and remain with stock springs
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
U can get the rostens springs with thinner wire, they allow more lift. On a PD you run into retainer against stem seal first.
You could also slightly deepen the spring seat surface in the head if u dont plan to run high rpm and remain with stock springs
The hydraulic lash adjuster would be on the edge of falling out. Could use lash caps to correct for that, but heck that's kinda hack, it just needs more spring.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Hokay, so.
The gas motor cams I have have a .356" smaller base circle than the ALH cam.
That is .178" on the radius. Quite significant of a difference if you're thinking about taking it up with the hydraulic lash adjusters alone. They'd fall out, tumble sideways between the tappet and valve stem and hang valves open.

The ALH valve springs are only good for .380" of lift before coil bind from a 1.2" installed height anyways.
So, longer springs, longer valve stems. Probably still run into issues from the (how do I word this) decreased lack of overlap.

the OBD2 8V 2.0 that I've got a couple of supposedly has -10 degrees overlap at .050 (1.2mm) lift
the alh supposedly has -35 degrees of overlap at 1mm of lift
so the difference is quite a bit (and even more than at first glance if you look at the lift numbers)
 
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