Timing belt jumped?96 Passat tdi

smsayner

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Location
Wisconsin
I believe my timing belt jumped. I think this cause I was driving down the road and it just died! It would not restart but turnes over still. The belt is not broken. I looked in the engine compartment and found the timing belt cover broke in a few places and a small 12mm nut (flanged) laying there. I think maybe someone lost a nut or something cause so far I have found no loose ones(besides myself).My engine still turns over by hand so I think maybe I am lucky and didn't hurt nuttin? I found tdc on the flywheel and looked like everything was 180 degrees and then some off. After thinking on it, maybe I was not at TDC on #1 cylinder but TDC on #3 cylinder? Also is there a way to set the injector pump up with out a computer? I am going to go get a allen socket from a buddy so I will check back. Thanks for your Help
 

smsayner

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Location
Wisconsin
Unfortanetly, I have already messed up the timing as it was. So I now need to reset everything from start to finish. It was time to replace the belt anyway. But now all my timing is off. ANy Ideas are helpful. I am obviously a back yard mechanic so help is always welcome Tks
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Where are you in WI? Maybe GarrettP can come to your rescue with his new tools that you'll need to do the job properly.
 

garrettp

Former Chip-Monk
Joined
May 23, 2000
Location
Oconto, WI
TDI
2000 JEDI
thanks for the e-mail Glen


let me know where you live and i can make a trip to help you out. i have to go to Iron Mountain/Florence on tuesday so if you are within 200 miles of there, i would be happy to make the trip to help you out
. i was kidding about the 200 mile thing, let me know where you are and i would be happy to make the trip (156,000 miles and counting
NEED MORE MILES
)
 

lrpavlo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Location
Cocoa FL
TDI
09 Sportwagen DSG, 02 NB Auto
If you are way far North on the Western side....like closer to Superior maybe my Brother could help....Ipavlov@pressenter.com
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
Set the flywheel at TDC by turning the motor clockwise with a wrench on the crank pully. Then pull the valve cover and check where the cam is positioned. The #1 lobes should be pointed up and the notch in the drivers end of the cam should be parallel with the surface of the head. If the cam is in the right place when the crank is at TDC look at the holes in the injection pump sprocket. Is the little hole in the sprocket pointed at the front of the car? The little hole lines up with a hole in the bracket which holds the injection pump. Hopefully the crank, cam and inj pump line up and there's something else wrong with your car. Starting at the beginning, did you replace relay 109, are you sure your fuel is not gelled?
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
Originally posted by smsayner:
I found tdc on the flywheel and looked like everything was 180 degrees and then some off
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The crank turns twice as fast as the cam and injection pump.

If the crank is at TDC and the cam and pump are 180 degrees off, then just turn the crank another 360 degrees to turn the cam and pump 180 degrees and it should line up.

Be aware that just because the engine turns over by hand does not mean that you won't get valve stikes with the engine running. Once you have oil pressure the hydraulic lifters pump up which can then give you a valve strike even if you are only one tooth out.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
[My engine still turns over by hand so I think maybe I am lucky and didn't hurt nuttin? /QUOTE]
Be aware that just because the engine turns over by hand does not mean that you won't get valve stikes with the engine running.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My first question: Did you hear a metalic "banging" or "slapping" after the engine quit and you tried to restart?


I am far from being the expert, but my understanding is that due to the high compression ratio the pistons and valves interfere w/each other. Therefore if the engine jumps time, damage to the head is inevitable (someone please tell me I'm wrong). That is precisely what happend to me/us last spring when the timing belt stripped. The pistons hit the valves and "crashed" the head.

If it were me. I'd pop the head and check. Trying to restart/run with bent valves or pieces in the cylinders will definitely result in more, possibly catastrophic damage. Drivebiwire gave me a ballpark figure of $1200. That was for me to get parts and rebuild the head myself. (I opted to replace the engine ... cost? about $3000)

I may be in the Eau Claire area next week. I have the manuals and a computer and would be happy to help if I can.

( Sorry to be such a curmudgeon ).
 

MITBeta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Location
Boston's Metro South-West
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2004 Sprinter CDI Passenger (Mid/High), former: 1996 Passat TDI Variant
Am I the only one here thinking that this had nothing to do with the timing belt but everything to do with the fact that he's in Northern Wisconsin and it's VERY COLD there?

I smell gelled fuel, but I guess it's a moot point now given that his timing is AFU.
 

smsayner

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Location
Wisconsin
The gelled fuel was the first though but the car was parked in a heated garage all night and I had only gone 3 city blocks when it gave. Regardless you could be very correct thet my timing was fine and now I have a bigger mess then I needed. In my defense: The timing belt did have a tear and a few cuffs in it so replacing was needed anyway.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
the car was parked in a heated garage all night and I had only gone 3 city blocks
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Based on that and the fact that you have belt and cover damage, I think your first synopsis is correct and you jumped time.
Do you still have the rogue 12mm nut? If so inspect it for "damage". I'd also take a very close look at the pullys and make sure they were not damaged by the nut getting trapped between the belt and a pully.

Does anyone know of a way to check for piston/valve contact w/out pulling the head?
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Using a 12 point 19mm socket on appropriate size ratchet (I use 3/4 inch), hand rotate the engine slowly. Of course, you've got to have a belt attached properly too.

The only places I can think of a nut coming off is from the tensioner or EGR controlling valve mounting. They should be 13mm though.

If the tensioner nut came loose, I would expect the belt to jump (at the minimum).
 

smsayner

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Location
Wisconsin
well I still have a nut on the tensioner will check the other and let you know. As for now I will slap a new belt on and try to align things best I can...then I will give it a try. Should be done by tommorow night if all is well keep ya posted.
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
I suggest taking up Garrett on his offer to assist before you damage the engine by guessing at alignments.
 

dieselgrandad

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
TDI
1997 Silver B4 Passat
Amen to that!

As I stated earlier, trying to run or even start the engine with bent valves will likely result in more damage, including scoring of the cylinders, which could cost you the block!
That means big bucks for a new ($4000+ from a dealer) or rebuilt engine. Popping the head to check for damage is more cost effective. Plus you could clean the manifolds which is probably needed by now anyway.
 

car54

theGAME
Joined
Dec 5, 2000
Location
Woodbridge VA
TDI
2002 Jetta
Originally posted by smsayner:
As for now I will slap a new belt on and try to align things best I can...then I will give it a try.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sorry to say, "the best I can" isnt good enough. If it isnt dead on, it wont start.

I suggest taking your car to a TDI specialist, the dealer, or GarretP. Your in need of some major help,
 

KeithP

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Location
NH
If you remove the cam by taking off the bearing shell halves you can look at the valve spring height. Any low valves are signs of damage by an interferance strike. When the cam is out now is the time to set top dead center and align cam before dropping back in. Two weeks ago I replaced a head assembly because of a belt failure. Two hydraulic lifters were crushed and a used head at $300 was a cheaper alternative. About 6 to 8 hours to r&r head first time. Keith
 

smsayner

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Location
Wisconsin
Here is the ending to the Passat Jumped Time story. I aligned everthing TDC on # 1. Used a 11mm deep well socket and set the pump. Used a file and set the cam. Replaced the belt. Turned over by hand several times and then I hit the key to turn it over but instead the damn thing started! Sounds fine and runs the same as before. I think only the injector timing jumped. Good news for me, Nothing else seems to be wromg for now. Thanks for everyones help!!
 

lrpavlo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Location
Cocoa FL
TDI
09 Sportwagen DSG, 02 NB Auto
Glad you are running again!


Don't ya think it might be a good idea though to check your timing with a vag com and get it set to spec?
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Glad to hear it too. Another example of how much simpler an A3 is compared to an A4.
 
Top