Timing jumped massively all on its own... ??!?!?!?!

jackbombay

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Today I was running some Vag logs and at about 4300 RPM and WOT the car hiccuped as if the fuel filter was plugged, I pulled over and the fuel line had not a single bubble in it (I have a PD lift pump), proceeded to drive home and the hesitation got worse, EGTs went up a bunch, so I checked the timng as I had Vag-com running,


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

It was idling at 700*F on the EGT gauge and stumbling as well, I turned it off and back on, and the idle was at least smooth and the EGT gauge was falling, it bottomed out at 450, I let it go for a few minutes then shut it down and corrected the timing, the bolts on the sprocket were not loose in any way, the hub was torqued to spec by diesel fuel injection in Portland Oregon, so I doubt that moved.

any Ideas on what could have cause this? I originally torqued the IP sprocket bolts to 20 lb/ft, too little? Should the 11mm get a few more lb/ft? I did torque them to 25 this time, fwiw. I'm going to put a little nail polish on the hub bolt and the sprocket bolts so if it happens again I'll be able to tell what moved, if anything.

Thoughts, comments?
 

jackbombay

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Aligator said:
Check static timing in basic settings first.
Once the idle had smoothed out I did, as soon as I clicked "basic settings" it started to stumble again and the EGTs strated climbing, the timing was 255 (maxed out) in the retarded direction:eek:.

Today it runs smooth, the timing is where I left it yesterday, but it still has the hesitation when cruising, I just brove it around the block. The hesitationn is slight, but there, I checked the actuall vs. requested IQ and the actuall vs. requested strat of injection, both were remained stable while the power fluctuated slightly.

Is my pump failing somehow?
 

Dave_D

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If the static timing was way off it does sound like something may be acting up in the pump. You might want to check the case pressure relief valve and see if the sleeve in the middle has worked its way out. If so, gently tap it back in to level with the base it protrudes from. The case pressure relief valve is accessed from the upper left corner of the injection pump under a bolt with a flattened oval head that I believe a 10mm open end wrench will fit.

How long since your last fuel filter change? When my injection pump started going I found that a partially clogged fuel filter prevented it from maintaining proper timing. In my case adjusting the case pressure relief valve and replacing the fuel filter bought me about 6 months before I had to replace the injection pump.
 

whitedog

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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
PDiesoiler said:
Do I understand this correctly? You have a PD in tank pump that supplies positive pressure to an IP that is designed to draw (negative pressure) fuel into its inlet?
This should not be a problem. Deere uses the same basic pump that can be fed with an electric pump.
 

jackbombay

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Dave_D said:
If the static timing was way off it does sound like something may be acting up in the pump. You might want to check the case pressure relief valve and see if the sleeve in the middle has worked its way out. If so, gently tap it back in to level with the base it protrudes from. The case pressure relief valve is accessed from the upper left corner of the injection pump under a bolt with a flattened oval head that I believe a 10mm open end wrench will fit.
I'll have a look at that, can't say that I 'm at all afamiliar with it though, to the search engine!

Dave_D said:
How long since your last fuel filter change? When my injection pump started going I found that a partially clogged fuel filter prevented it from maintaining proper timing. In my case adjusting the case pressure relief valve and replacing the fuel filter bought me about 6 months before I had to replace the injection pump.
I have a CAT 2 micron filter,for the volme of fuel that they run throughin an 18 wheelere in 20,000 miles they should be good for well over 100,000 miles in our cars, I have about 20,000 on the current filter


PDiesoiler said:
Do I understand this correctly? You have a PD in tank pump that supplies positive pressure to an IP that is designed to draw (negative pressure) fuel into its inlet?
Yea, tons of peopel are doing it, KERMA sells a similar version on his web-site, instant start-ups and no air in the fuel line. I doubt it is fuel starvation, but does feel like that, and Ida have an extra filter...
 

Frank M

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put every thing back to stock

put every thing back to stock and see if the problem goes away.
My bet is that it will.......;)
 

jackbombay

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QuickTD said:
The midrange hesitation, retarded timing and misfiring are all symptoms of a loose crank pulley on an old 1.9TD. Might be worth a look, though I haven't heard of many cases of this on a TDI, only happens if the crank pulley is improperly torqued or the bolt is re-used.
The car is an 03 with 78,000 miles so it's still on the originall timing belt, crank pulley bolts have never been touched, but it's certainly worth a look. Although if the crank pulley moved the cam timing would be off too which it wasn't. :confused: :confused:

I have had a failing coolant temp sensor for a while and I replaced that yesterday afternoon, but I got some funny numbers when I just checked the fuel coolant and intake air temp with vag com,

It is 25* C right now, the car hasn't run in 12 hours,
Fuel temp: 34.2* C
IAT........: 32.4* C
Coolant...: 4.5* C:confused:

I'm going to check/replace the fuel filter...
 

jackbombay

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So I pulled the fuel line off the filter comng from the tank and turned on the lift pump, just a tiny trickle came out :confused:. Figured it couldn't hurt to re-install the originall non-pump fuel sender. drove t around and the hesitation seems gone, althoug it might be there ever so slightly, but maybe it is just undulations in the road. However the timing is now retarded agian, requested is ~2* BTDC and actuall is ~5* ATDC. Unfortunately I forgott to nail polish the IP pulley and hub bolts so I don;t know if they are the problem.

I don;t think that shifting a shifting pulley or hub is the issue though as the fuel temp after a 5 min drive was 255:eek::eek::eek:, also there is a small bubble in the fuel line that isn;t getting sucked into the pump as the fuel isn't moving fast enough. With the engine running the bubble just wiggles back and forth about 1/4", IIRC before I had the lift pump the fule nmoved fast enough to easily suck bubbles along into the pump, right? Maybe the fuel is so hot because there is not enough circulation? I'll pull fuel lines and blow air through them to make sure they aren't plugged somehow.

I have 2 codes that won;t erase now as well, Injection Start Regulation: Control Deviation and N214 coolant controll valve, which should've been dealt with by the new Coolant temp sensor.

Seems like sooner or later it seems like I'll be reinstalling my 10mm pump:mad:
 
Last edited:

jackbombay

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Well, The car has driven about 1.5 miles since the initiall hiccup, when it first happend I thought the engine was making a bit more noise than usuall, but I wasn't sure as it's had a new pump, new turbo and new programming in the last few weeks. When I turn the engine over by hand there is an audible metalic click from the IP, at the same time as the click the IP sprocket shifts ever so slightly in relation to the belt (video of click here), is this normal?
 

WiLdTdI

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jetta 00 red
loose sprocket

your sprocket is loose look at your video closely...slow motion you can see the sprocket slipping on the shaft!!....Do not drive the car like this!

Thats where the clicking noise is coming from

causes are overtightening,cracked/split sprocket,stripped thread's:)

WiLdTdI
 

WiLdTdI

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I see it all the time(You have to use new bolt's and a proper torque wrench):)
 

whitedog

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WiLdTdI said:
your sprocket is loose look at your video closely...slow motion you can see the sprocket slipping on the shaft!!....Do not drive the car like this!

Thats where the clicking noise is coming from

causes are overtightening,cracked/split sprocket,stripped thread's:)

WiLdTdI
OK, what did I not see? After yo umentioned this, I looked again and I MAY see the sprocket turn when the knut doesn't at that pop, but I"m not sure. Learn us something here, please.
 

WiLdTdI

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You did it

whitedog said:
OK, what did I not see? After yo umentioned this, I looked again and I MAY see the sprocket turn when the knut doesn't at that pop, but I"m not sure. Learn us something here, please.
You explained the problem perfectly!....The Sprocket and nut must turn together all the time if they don't then somthing is wrong!

save the video as and open in a video editor and watch it in slow motion

WiLdTdI
 

whitedog

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save the video as and open in a video editor and watch it in slow motion
WHOOOOOSH

Was that an airplane that just went over my head or was it your post?

Video editor... hmmm I wonder if I have that...
 

jackbombay

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WiLdTdI said:
your sprocket is loose look at your video closely...slow motion you can see the sprocket slipping on the shaft!!....Do not drive the car like this!
I put nail polish on all three sprocket bolts and on the hub nut and shaft, neither of those junctions is moving, the shift you saw was the sprocket shifting in relation to the T-belt as there is the smallest amount of slop in the sprocket and the teeth on the T-belt, the sound of the click doesn't come across all that well, but it sure sounds "wrong" to me.
 

oldpoopie

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Well, I've never seen a pump make that noise, so I'd say yes, its wrong. If you have another pump, I'd install it and send the 11mm back out for a double check.
 

nicklockard

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The nut doesn't appear to turn at all. Am I imagining it because I read it though?
 

WiLdTdI

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jetta 00 red
Tapered shaft & keyway

Just a hint check your key in the keyway and see if it is in position and not damaged or even present at all (they can be pushed out during install)
:)

and last but not least check your sprocket for a crack inside the tapered area (over torquing or keyway misalignment can cause these to split):cool:

Hope you find the cause of the clicking pump Good Luck!:)
 

jackbombay

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oldpoopie said:
Well, I've never seen a pump make that noise, so I'd say yes, its wrong. If you have another pump, I'd install it and send the 11mm back out for a double check.
I listened to a few other TDIs last night at a GTG (I showed up in our subaru, how emabarassing:() and there is definately something wrong inside this pump me thinks. 10mm re-install to go down tonight after work.

WiLdTdI said:
Just a hint check your key in the keyway and see if it is in position and not damaged or even present at all (they can be pushed out during install)
I'm not sure what you mean here, install the locking pin? I thought the hub on these pumps didn't have a keyway.

WiLdTdI said:
and last but not least check your sprocket for a crack inside the tapered area (over torquing or keyway misalignment can cause these to split):cool:
The sprocket has no tapered surface, you mean the hub, right?

nicklockard said:
The nut doesn't appear to turn at all. Am I imagining it because I read it though?
In that whole video the outer edge of the sprocket only turns 1/8" or so, so the nut is only moving a 1/128" being of such a smaller radius, plus it's not all that in focus.
 

WiLdTdI

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Sprocket

Did you use the old sprocket off the 10mm?

It uses a tapered shaft and keyway

I don't know if the 11mm is any different


WiLdTdI
 

WiLdTdI

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Hub sprocket

jackbombay said:
I listened to a few other TDIs last night at a GTG (I showed up in our subaru, how emabarassing:() and there is definately something wrong inside this pump me thinks. 10mm re-install to go down tonight after work.



I'm not sure what you mean here, install the locking pin? I thought the hub on these pumps didn't have a keyway.



The sprocket has no tapered surface, you mean the hub, right?



In that whole video the outer edge of the sprocket only turns 1/8" or so, so the nut is only moving a 1/128" being of such a smaller radius, plus it's not all that in focus.

I'am sorry the hub bolt's on to the sprocket and the pump is attached to the hub with a tapered keyway

I presume you adjust the fuel timing with the sprocket bolts VS the pump housing on 10mm pumps
 

WiLdTdI

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Sprocket Bolt's

If you have an A4, you need to remove the upper timing belt cover and adjust the relationship between the inner and outer parts of the injector pump pulley. To advance the timing, the inner part of the pulley (together with the pump shaft) needs to move "forward" with respect to the outer part of the pulley. To retard the timing, the inner part needs to move "backward" with respect to the outer part. The 3 bolts which secure the two parts of the pulley together may or may not be "stretch bolts" that must be replaced every time you do this ... so it's a good idea to get 3 new bolts just to be sure. Make all the adjustments using the original bolts, then replace the old bolts with the new bolts and torque them one at a time.

This is a quote from the fac section sorry i was confused and thinking it was an older A3 engine in regard's to the timing adjustment method

Good luck and yes i would also be putting the 10mm back in the car

BTW did you have any fuel overheating problem's with the 11 mm??


WiLdTdI
 

jackbombay

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WiLdTdI said:
Did you use the old sprocket off the 10mm?

It uses a tapered shaft and keyway

I don't know if the 11mm is any different


WiLdTdI
I used the sprocket from the 10mm, but there is nothing tapered about it. I've adjusted timing many times and I've never had an issue with it. The timing on this pump changes all by itself without the sprocket moving, the nail polish I used to mark the bolts has not cracked on the hub nut or the sprocket bolts, something is screwed up in the pump.
 

jackbombay

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I swapped in the old 10mm tonight (there was nothing wrong with it except it wasn't an 11mm) and it runs fin enow, timing is stable, normal EGTs, seems to be down 10-15 ponies though, and my james bond smoke show is practically all gone.


Post mortem: is there anything that I could have done wrong with the installl that would make apump work fine for ~1,600 miles then all of a sudden die? The pump is/was new, but it had a bad QA so the QA is a used unit from 4motionVW, is there anyway that could be the culprit? Seems like I just got unlucky as I don't see how the noise coming from the pump could be caused by the QA or be install related, there were no issues with the install, I took my time and tripple checked everything according to the bently instructions...

:(
 

jackbombay

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runonbeer said:
Why don't you tear it open and find out.
Because I'm chicken :eek:

I also don't want to cost myself more money than I am already going to have to spend to get it fixed, I figure sending them an assembled broken pump is more up their alley than a box of parts that used to be a pump. Also I wouldn't quite know what to look for.
 
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