Q7 3.0 TDI Timing Chain Parts Cost and Labor Units to R/R

I went to to the new Audi dealership in Oxnard to look at the Q7 3.0 TDI. As kit turned out it was delivered with out its ad blue solution in the tank. It was putting out fault codes as a result. A young UTI graduate on his first job figured out the socket to use (17 mm) to open the ad blue cap. after the ad blue, a struggle with the VAS 1552 to reset (reboot) the MIL and I was set for a short test drive. This thing is smoother and quieter than any VR6 gas engine I have been around. It is no power house but delivery power is smooth-it reminds me of a well set up GM small black.
Once I got back to the dealer I went to the sevice manager to check up on cost of ownership. I wanted to know about the downside associated with having 4 timing chains.
Here is the parts cost and Labor Units for each part associated with a complete timing chain job:

Part Quantity; Cost; Labor Units; LU,Total

Timing Chain, 4; 120.00; 1.5; 6
Rail, 1; 142.00; 1.30; 1.30
Tensioner, 3; 126.00; 2.9; 8.70
Guide, 2; 56.00; 2.9; 5.80
Gilmer Belt, 1; 55.00; 2.70; 2.70
Water Pump, 1; 285.00; 1.9; 1.90
Total: Parts: $1,612.00; LU: 25.40

If each LU is worth $ 95.00 then the labor is worth around $ 2,300. Then add sales tax to the above amounts and you are well north of 4K for parts and labor.
The DSG transmission must be serviced at 35,000 mile intervals I was given no cost as the data base went down in the midst of doing this. The Gilmer belt is to be checked at 110,000 miles no replacement required but assume by then it will be worn and likely require replacement.
The service manager felt that if the chains and associated hardware need replacement then a design problem exists. She was previously a Mercedes service writer and is rather innocent about VOA warranty issues. Her car is a 1.8T Bug so she was all ears about VW issues and where to take her car in the local area.
Just some thoughts for those wanting a 3.0 TDI...

On most engines, it is very expensive to service the timing chains; this is no surprise. But, if the timing chain system is properly designed, it should never require service.

What is the "Gilmer belt"??

edit: The Q7 ain't a cheap vehicle, even to begin with. I'm thinking that anyone who can afford the purchase price, ought to be able to afford the maintenance. Way beyond my reach, that's for sure.

Those must be the parts for a serpentine belt and high pressure pump belt replacement. Far too few for the 4 timing chains and associated hardware. Nothing there for the hours required to r/r the transmission to get to the back of the engine and the chains.

Here's a partial list of timing chain related parts:
Chains:
059 109 229 J
059 109 229 K
059 109 229 M
06E 109 465 AQ
Tensioners:
059 109 467 E
057 109 218 K
057 109 217 J
057 109 510 A
Tracks:
057 109 269 H
079 109 510 F
BOLTS:
N 101 243 06 X 5
N 101 562 05 X 8
N 105 540 05 X 3
WHT 000 265 X 3
N 910 522 01 X 5

Other hardware:
059 109 481
059 115 120 A
N 900 154 01
N 908 932 02 X 2
079 109 435 G
N 909 549 05 X 3
057 109 224 B
079 109 139 A

and that's just in the chain tensioner area. It does not include anything required to replace when r/r the transmission.

For the high pressure pump and serpentine belt:

059 109 119 F high pressure pump
058 109 244 relay roller
057 109 243 M tensioner
N 900 637 06 tensioner bolt
WHT 002 244 nut
059 903 137 AC serpentine belt

Water pump is driven by serpentine belt, so it is a replace when necessary part. 06E 121 005 F

I expected some one to come on here with parts that will need to be replaced that the Audi dealer did not include. Any idea on the price of these added parts and the labor units needed to R&R the timing chains? I don't believe the 4K figure at all.
Also what is the cost for a DSG transmission oil change on this? I suspect it will be greater than for any VW 4 cylinder-how much even this dealer could not tell me. If you know let me and the rest of the world know.

Point remains the chain should last the life of the car.

That is, car should only be worth about 4K at the time the stuff wears out, so it's a total.

Comparing a V-engine to a four-banger is a bit apples/oranges, too.

3 litres in the European context is a luxury car engine and a VW TDI 4-banger car isn't.

VLS_GUY said:

The DSG transmission must be serviced at 35,000 mile intervals

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The Q7 has never been available with a DSG.

The reason why I am concerned about the timing chains wearing goes beyond the problems found on some TDI 4 bangers. VR6 engines had timing chain problems as well, usually showing up at around. 100,000 mi. Vortex has a DIY on this procedure check it out at:http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1264409.
The DSG transmission concern come from the sales stff being convinced that a DSG option will become available on the Q7. This would have to be a different animal than that found behind a 4 cylinder of any sort so I would like to know if any one knows about the potential DSG transmissions that could handle the torque and their servicing requirements.

VLS_GUY said:

...I would like to know if any one knows about the potential DSG transmissions that could handle the torque and their servicing requirements.

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Audi has a 7-speed DSG in the A4, A5 and Q5 with the 3.0 diesel.

But I wouldn't make presumptions about the service intervals and procedures on those transmissions being similar to the service intervals and procedures on an entirely different transmission.

Re the timing chains, I also wouldn't infer that this is necessarily going to be a problem area. Certainly, IF it is a problem it's going to be a BIG problem, but this is a different engine from the VR6 and isn't NECESSARILY going to have the same issues. Properly designed timing chains will last the life of the vehicle. If you are worried about something being not properly designed ... why not price out the turbochargers? And the injection pump? And the ECU? And the pistons, and the lifters, and the valve springs? And all the gaskets and seals? And the clutch, and the final drive, and the CV joints? And the brakes, and the hubs, and the wheel bearings? And the ABS module, and the master cylinder, and the brake booster? While you are at it, price out every part to replace everything on the whole vehicle, because every single piece has the possibility of being improperly designed?

At a certain point, you just have to assume that the designers did their job correctly and the durability testing departments got the worst of the bugs out, and just go with it. If there is a problem, just deal with it. There's no guarantee that the timing chains will be that problem.

The reason why I price out similar components or systems that have a history of failure and come from the same company on anything I am purchasing is because the same or similar design and production process is used complete with assumptions and value judgments. This makes for a product family lineage with similar types and frequencies of failure over different models from the same organization. Over time you can even see similar patterns of improvement in reliability over a products lifespan. When high failure rates on similar parts on different engine types are seen this puts such systems on at least one metric drivers list and a candidate for design, manufacturing process, or improved user training. In short historical failure data is used to prioritize systems to be monitored.
I am simply applying the principals of Reliability, Maintainability, and Availability (RM&A) to VW automobiles to lower the owners risk and total cost of ownership. If the timing chains and the associated hardware last the life of the vehicle then why not offer a warranty that reflects this? The cost to VW would be low and it would be a good selling point for a brand not known for reliability.

GoFaster said:

......What is the "Gilmer belt"??.....

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Gilmer belt is the same as tooth timing belt as was pionered by Glas automotive for driving the camshaft in the SOHC/DOHC engine

VLS_GUY said:

The reason why I am concerned about the timing chains wearing goes beyond the problems found on some TDI 4 bangers. VR6 engines had timing chain problems as well, usually showing up at around. 100,000 mi. Vortex has a DIY on this procedure check it out....

Click to expand...

I used to have two '95 VR6 powered Passats. I still have one (125k) , and sold the other one(150k). Before I sold the other Passat VR6, they both have over 100k with original TCs and WPs. I do my own maintenance and repair, minor and major, on all the cars I have owned. VW TCs are of good designs and as good as BMW, MB, or Porches TCs. I have never had problems with them. I think this whole thing about VW TCs being junk are just simply scams. Just like the BS. Mechanics like to tell horror stories so they can make lucrative business with people like you and me.

I have seen those chains in person. They will be a problem. Teeny, tiny, single roller jobs. If you get 200k miles (normal city-highway mix, not some constant steady-state cruising like a lab test) I would be surprised. They actually look far wimpier than the VR6 chains.

However, even if it costs $5k to replace them, given the price of the vehicle, how well they run, and how frugal they are (given WHAT they are), I would not be too worried about it. If I could afford the car, I could afford the repairs. And, like the OP, I too would want to have a better handle on how much it costs just to be prepared.

VAG cannot make chain drives people. You need to understand that. The 1.8t cam chain tensioners are failing like crazy now, since some have actually survived the oil sludging issues and are hitting close to 200k miles. I even had one that was bad at 55k miles , and one on a W8 that was bad at 77k.

The toothed (Gilmer) belt, part number 059-109-119-F, I would think has a normal PM schedule like any such belt would. However that appears to be a very easy and quick job, relatively speaking. And since that only operates the high-pressure fuel pump, it may in fact outlast the chains.

Here is a pic of the CATA engine:



Not sure if this applies, but the labor time to R&R the engine/trans on the VR6 T'reg calls for 15 hours, because they must come out as an assembly. I do not know if that will be the same for the TDI however. My Alldata has no info on the newest model T'reg/Q7/Cayenne.

The information I can get is very limited on PM surrounding the Gilmer Belt. All I can find out is that it is visually inspected at 110,000 miles; no replacement schedule etc-yet.
As for VR6 chains not failing count yourself lucky if your haven't at least started to show signs of wear. It is a DIY on Vortex because it is a common problem like it or not.

T_D_I_POWER said:

I used to have two '95 VR6 powered Passats. I still have one (125k) , and sold the other one(150k). Before I sold the other Passat VR6, they both have over 100k with original TCs and WPs. I do my own maintenance and repair, minor and major, on all the cars I have owned. VW TCs are of good designs and as good as BMW, MB, or Porches TCs. I have never had problems with them. I think this whole thing about VW TCs being junk are just simply scams. Just like the BS. Mechanics like to tell horror stories so they can make lucrative business with people like you and me.

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LMAO, you sold those cars BEFORE the chains became a problem. They are VERY common failure items. My sister's VR6, which was impeccably maintained, was wiped out at 160k when we sold it to a fellow club member. You are right, VR6 chains ARE a lucrative business.

Go post some more pictures of square tires that are 'fine' will ya? Geez.

yikes.....I love the way that thing drives but....

Timing gears. Someone needs to come up with retrofit. Rotational inertia be damned.

T_D_I_POWER said:

I used to have two '95 VR6 powered Passats. I still have one (125k) , and sold the other one(150k). Before I sold the other Passat VR6, they both have over 100k with original TCs and WPs. I do my own maintenance and repair, minor and major, on all the cars I have owned. VW TCs are of good designs and as good as BMW, MB, or Porches TCs. I have never had problems with them. I think this whole thing about VW TCs being junk are just simply scams. Just like the BS. Mechanics like to tell horror stories so they can make lucrative business with people like you and me.

Click to expand...

Made for you -> http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=dee-dee-dee-song&videoId=72779

You know, I really have to laugh at the VR6 chain comment...a simple quick google search for 'VR6 timing chain' will give anyone HOURS of reading about noise, wear, and outright breakage. It would seem pretty common knowledge to anyone around VWs, but I guess not.

And it is with this previous less-than-stellar track record that I feel the CATA engine's chains will be a thorn in someone's side some day.

Thankfully, all my current Volkswagens are 100% chain-free.

The only thing funnier than the VR6 timing chain comment is that he never replaced a water pump. An OEM VR6 water pump with a plastic impeller would have an tiny numb of an eroded impeller by then and likely leaking. How he got away with not replacing the water pump is beyond me.
Also I wonder if he knows about the shift rod making its usual racket by the time it makes 100,000 miles... If both the timing chain and shift rod bushings need changing a VR6 can make for a rough sounding engine.

It's comforting to know that all of this research and analysis has been done. Now I can sleep better. Thank Google we have such reliable reliability informants with access to Google search.