Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

rotarykid · Oct 8, 2017

VeeDubTDI said:
I think there will be a major shift in the vehicle fueling model.

Currently you drive to any one of the numerous gas stations around you and spend about 5 minutes filling up your car - perhaps 10 minutes if you also run inside for a pee or a snack. Land is expensive and demand for it is ever-increasing.

In the future, when EVs dominate a significant portion of the market segment, I expect the number of convenience store filling stations to decrease and more entertainment and shopping venues (including downtown parking garages) to have high speed vehicle charging available in their parking lots and garages. It makes sense because many people are already visiting these places on a regular basis and parking is readily available. Many of these places also have large power connections available to them. While the charging infrastructure itself is expensive, land utilization is consolidated, with the shopping mall now serving multiple purposes that include vehicle charging.

I think we'll also see manufacturers and charging companies building interstate rest stops that offer large-scale EV charging, restrooms and a convenience store or lounge. Tesla is currently building a couple of 40-stall Supercharger sites in California that have PIN access customer lounges, restrooms and a place for food trucks to pull up. These sites are located in small towns that offer other services within walking distance if you don't want to hang out at the charging location.

Tesla is doing some very creative thinking with regard to vehicle charging both interstate and inner-city. It will be very interesting to watch how this scales up and also to see if other manufacturers go down a similar path or if charging networks like Chargepoint and EVgo handle the bulk of our charging needs.

I was just in the north part of California during the beginning of summer, and I found once you get north of San Francisco outside of the tourist areas, there doesn't seem to be any charging that I could find available.

Pot is easier to locate across most of the west than charging stations are....that says all that need be said as far as I am concerned about the practicality of these things when it comes to crossing this big empty....

And I believe because of this I did not see a single electric vehicle anywhere north of San Fancisco outside of the the grape growing areas.......

This is no different than what is faced by the 5 states region that I reside in most of the time once you get outside of Denver or Salt Lake or Albuquerque. There's no where to charge these things.?..!..;(...

Until these issues are dealt with these things are going to be toys for the rich people, which they are right now, regardless of what some says...

And they will continue to be useless for crossing most of the sparsely populated west to get from one place to the other until that changes.

I don't see them catching on until this changes.... I know I don't want a vehicle that I can't get into and drive anywhere I want to and not worry about being stuck somewhere because it has a dead battery, a dead battery that won't go any further for that day, ..,...

....This feels like going back to the national mandated speed limit of 55, where it took 3 days to cross areas you can cross in reasonable amounts of time in cross in less than one day today....a really hard sell out here...

bhtooefr · Oct 8, 2017

For what it's worth, a lot of charging stations aren't posted with blazing beacons of their presence, because the people that need them have ways of finding them.

Tesla Superchargers, the in-car navigation on any Supercharger-capable vehicle can find.

Public charging stations for other brands of electric vehicle, Plugshare is the way to find them (including reviews of the station, so you know if it's any good). (That said, long distance travel in a non-Tesla is... painful.)

RabbitGTI · Oct 8, 2017

rotarykid said:
I was just in the north part of California during the beginning of summer, and I found once you get north of San Francisco outside of the tourist areas, there doesn't seem to be any charging that I could find available.

Pot is easier to locate across most of the west than charging stations are....that says all that need be said as far as I am concerned about the practicality of these things when it comes to crossing this big empty....

And I believe because of this I did not see a single electric vehicle anywhere north of San Fancisco outside of the the grape growing areas.......

This is no different than what is faced by the 5 states region that I reside in most of the time once you get outside of Denver or Salt Lake or Albuquerque. There's no where to charge these things.?..!..;(...

Until these issues are dealt with these things are going to be toys for the rich people, which they are right now, regardless of what some says...

And they will continue to be useless for crossing most of the sparsely populated west to get from one place to the other until that changes.

I don't see them catching on until this changes.... I know I don't want a vehicle that I can't get into and drive anywhere I want to and not worry about being stuck somewhere because it has a dead battery, a dead battery that won't go any further for that day, ..,...

....This feels like going back to the national mandated speed limit of 55, where it took 3 days to cross areas you can cross in reasonable amounts of time in cross in less than one day today....a really hard sell out here...

Exactly. Right now they are toys for people with disposable income, subsidized toys at that. And the lack of versatility is exactly why ICE/hybrids make the most sense for MOST people. Many of the people I know can barely afford to keep one vehicle on the road, much less have a city EV and a going on a trip car. EV range has to increase and charging time has to decrease for them to take a big market share.

aja8888 · Oct 8, 2017

RabbitGTI said:
Exactly. Right now they are toys for people with disposable income, subsidized toys at that.

Lots of disposable income, for that matter. The average blue collar working guy with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a few other bills can't afford an electric car that depreciates faster than his kids go through Cheerios.

nwdiver · Oct 8, 2017

aja8888 said:
Lots of disposable income, for that matter. The average blue collar working guy with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a few other bills can't afford an electric car that depreciates faster than his kids go through Cheerios.

A used LEAF can regularly be found for ~$10k. Electric cars depreciate a bit slower than ICE. If a $34k EV isn't for 'blue collar' workers then neither is a $34k ICE.

rotarykid said:
I was just in the north part of California during the beginning of summer, and I found once you get north of San Francisco outside of the tourist areas, there doesn't seem to be any charging that I could find available.

They're there...

I've driven from NM => IL => CA => WA all on fast chargers. Any RV Park with 50A outlets can also provide faster charging than most public L2 chargers.

compu_85 · Oct 8, 2017

rotarykid said:
I was just in the north part of California during the beginning of summer, and I found once you get north of San Francisco outside of the tourist areas, there doesn't seem to be any charging that I could find available.

I guess you didn't look very hard

I just pulled up PlugShare and there are a bunch of stations along the major routes.

https://www.plugshare.com

aja8888 said:
Lots of disposable income, for that matter. The average blue collar working guy with a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a few other bills can't afford an electric car that depreciates faster than his kids go through Cheerios.

It will be a while before electric cars can compete with $1500 rattle trap Tauruses. But on the used market there are many selections available below $10,000. 'dub and I just got our 500e for under $8,000, with a CPO warranty!

Plus, remember the running costs of the electric car are much cheaper, so you don't have the hidden cost of 20 mpg gasoline in your beater Taurus.

-J

VeeDubTDI · Oct 8, 2017

rotarykid said:
I was just in the north part of California during the beginning of summer, and I found once you get north of San Francisco outside of the tourist areas, there doesn't seem to be any charging that I could find available.

Pot is easier to locate across most of the west than charging stations are....that says all that need be said as far as I am concerned about the practicality of these things when it comes to crossing this big empty....

And I believe because of this I did not see a single electric vehicle anywhere north of San Fancisco outside of the the grape growing areas.......

This is no different than what is faced by the 5 states region that I reside in most of the time once you get outside of Denver or Salt Lake or Albuquerque. There's no where to charge these things.?..!..;(...

Until these issues are dealt with these things are going to be toys for the rich people, which they are right now, regardless of what some says...

And they will continue to be useless for crossing most of the sparsely populated west to get from one place to the other until that changes.

I don't see them catching on until this changes.... I know I don't want a vehicle that I can't get into and drive anywhere I want to and not worry about being stuck somewhere because it has a dead battery, a dead battery that won't go any further for that day, ..,...

....This feels like going back to the national mandated speed limit of 55, where it took 3 days to cross areas you can cross in reasonable amounts of time in cross in less than one day today....a really hard sell out here...

It's interesting that your response to my posts about the transition happening over the next couple of decades always seems to be "but I was in XXX remote area last week and didn't see anything, toys for rich people, etc."

It's coming...

nwdiver · Oct 8, 2017

rotarykid said:
....This feels like going back to the national mandated speed limit of 55, where it took 3 days to cross areas you can cross in reasonable amounts of time in cross in less than one day today....a really hard sell out here...

I've driven from WA=>NM in a Tesla and a Jetta TDI. The total travel time is effectively the same... 'cause I'm a human with a stomach and a bladder.... and I need to sleep. As it turns out the time spent eating, pissing and sleeping can also be used charging...

CraziFuzzy · Oct 8, 2017

At this point, the constant discussion and fretting over long-distance capability, fast charging availability, etc. is almost a red herring. MOST passenger car fuel expended is NOT on long distance trips, and can be 100% satisfied by an 80 mile ev with a slow 4-6 hour charge at home. Anecdotally bringing up how 80 mile ev's are not viable because they cannot drive coast to coast is very much the same as saying the civic is pointless to buy because it can't tow 9,500 pounds.

RabbitGTI · Oct 8, 2017

CraziFuzzy said:
At this point, the constant discussion and fretting over long-distance capability, fast charging availability, etc. is almost a red herring. MOST passenger car fuel expended is NOT on long distance trips, and can be 100% satisfied by an 80 mile ev with a slow 4-6 hour charge at home. Anecdotally bringing up how 80 mile ev's are not viable because they cannot drive coast to coast is very much the same as saying the civic is pointless to buy because it can't tow 9,500 pounds.

EVs lack flexibility to change plans mid trip and the civic analogy is just plain stupid.

turbobrick240 · Oct 8, 2017

People who feel threatened by the ev can conjure up a million reasons why they don't suit their needs. And a few may have some merit. The good news is nobody is going to force them to buy an ev. As much as I have enjoyed my ice vehicles, I really look forward to harvesting free, clean energy from my property to meet most of my transportation needs in the future. I'll probably take the leap when I can get a tesla or something of comparable quality/aesthetics for under $30k.

aja8888 · Oct 8, 2017

nwdiver said:
A used LEAF can regularly be found for ~$10k. Electric cars depreciate a bit slower than ICE. If a $34k EV isn't for 'blue collar' workers then neither is a $34k ICE.

Have you even been in one of those LEAFs? My word, what a load of junk, even for $10K.

Ans as far as depreciation, I recall knowledgeable posters on this site commenting on how fast the LEAF depreciates. It all has to do with the observation that people who buy used cars don't trust the remaining battery life of used electric vehicles. It's viewed as like marrying a divorcee with young kids and no job.

nwdiver · Oct 8, 2017

aja8888 said:
Have you even been in one of those LEAFs? My word, what a load of junk, even for $10K.

Yeah... they were more fun to drive than my TDI and from what I've heard A LOT easier to maintain. Every time I fixed one glow plug another one would die... then there was the struggle with my stupid EGR valve and my alternator pulley then my tensioner... and on and on and on....

Some people want a project... I just want a car.

aja8888 said:
It all has to do with the observation that people who buy used cars don't trust the remaining battery life of used electric vehicles. It's viewed as like marrying a divorcee with young kids and no job.

Their loss... your gain... get a great used EV cheap. The only EVs that have had battery issues were the first generation LEAFs. And now Nissan will replace the battery for $5500. Buy a LEAF with a 'bad' battery for $6k... you can have an EV with a brand new battery for <$12k.

john.jackson9213 · Oct 8, 2017

I looked at San Diego Gas & Electric's car charging rate plans a few days ago.
Even at night the price is .23/.25 per KW.

Today, I filled the Camry at $2.79/gallon (Costco) and checked the mpg - 26.5 for that tanks. So ten and a half cents per mile around town.

What would my cost per KW translate to in costs per mile in a similar size EV to the Camry?

As for cross country travel, Anita much prefers to fly and rent a car at the destination. So most of the time, that is what we do.

I suspect the Chevrolet Volt is the most practical model electric car for most people. Meaning Gas/Electric hybrid - not especially the 1st or 2nd generation Volt.

turbobrick240 · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
I looked at San Diego Gas & Electric's car charging rate plans a few days ago.
Even at night the price is .23/.25 per KW.

Today, I filled the Camry at $2.79/gallon (Costco) and checked the mpg - 26.5 for that tanks. So ten and a half cents per mile around town.

What would my cost per KW translate to in costs per mile in a similar size EV to the Camry?

As for cross country travel, Anita much prefers to fly and rent a car at the destination. So most of the time, that is what we do.

I suspect the Chevrolet Volt is the most practical model electric car for most people. Meaning Gas/Electric hybrid - not especially the 1st or 2nd generation Volt.

Should be ~5-6 cents/mile at those rates. The summer tou rate for super off peak (12-5 am) electricity is $ .19 kw/hr there.

nwdiver · Oct 9, 2017

turbobrick240 said:
Should be ~5-6 cents/mile at those rates. The summer tou rate for super off peak (12-5 am) electricity is $ .19 kw/hr there.

Or Solar... Over the 20 year warrantied life of the system that's <$0.07/kWh. Which comes out to <2.3 cents/mile VS 10.5 cents/mile for the Camry...

El Dobro · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
I suspect the Chevrolet Volt is the most practical model electric car for most people. Meaning Gas/Electric hybrid - not especially the 1st or 2nd generation Volt.

42,000 miles, so far and 75% of it EV.

compu_85 · Oct 9, 2017

aja8888 said:
Have you even been in one of those LEAFs? My word, what a load of junk, even for $10K.

Space for 4, OK seats, quiet and smooth ride... not too bad. Controls are easy to reach, and the AC works great. And, no stupid transmission to be in the wrong gear.

The battery degradation issues they have are the only major fault I have with them. They're an excellent commuter car, despite the odd styling. Like every car I've driven with regen brake blending the Leaf's brakes can have an odd, grabby feel at times... but I found it didn't take long to adjust to.

-J

john.jackson9213 · Oct 9, 2017

nwdiver said:
Or Solar... Over the 20 year warrantied life of the system that's <$0.07/kWh. Which comes out to <2.3 cents/mile VS 10.5 cents/mile for the Camry...

That is all well and good if you have a 20+year horizon. At my age, that is not a reasonable horizon. For Anita, it is even less reasonable.

But you need to calculate the present value of the $15K from Costco for a solar system. Then you need to calculate the present value of what ever the difference in purchase price from a 22K Camry and your preferred electric car. Call that difference $50K for a Tesla S (just for calculations).

How does the cost of fuel look then? Based on 15K per year or 300K miles over a 20 year lifetime.

Just the cost of solar @ $15K adds $.05/mile to the 2.3 cents per mile you calculate.

Even a $37K Bolt adds another $15K in costs for another $.05/mile. AND the Bolt is no Camry on the inside.

Does anyone have an aprox range of KW/Miles in an EV?

compu_85 · Oct 9, 2017

Our 500e easily does 4.5 mi/kwh. If you're driving lightly around town you can almost touch 8 mi / kwh!

VeeDubTDI · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
That is all well and good if you have a 20+year horizon. At my age, that is not a reasonable horizon. For Anita, it is even less reasonable.

But you need to calculate the present value of the $15K from Costco for a solar system. Then you need to calculate the present value of what ever the difference in purchase price from a 22K Camry and your preferred electric car. Call that difference $50K for a Tesla S (just for calculations).

How does the cost of fuel look then? Based on 15K per year or 300K miles over a 20 year lifetime.

Just the cost of solar @ $15K adds $.05/mile to the 2.3 cents per mile you calculate.

Even a $37K Bolt adds another $15K in costs for another $.05/mile. AND the Bolt is no Camry on the inside.

Does anyone have an aprox range of KW/Miles in an EV?

Wouldn't the cost of solar replace the 2.3 cents per mile in calculated electricity costs? If I install solar and charge my car from it exclusively, my energy cost per mile is the amortization of the solar system across the miles driven.

VeeDubTDI · Oct 9, 2017

compu_85 said:
Our 500e easily does 4.5 mi/kwh. If you're driving lightly around town you can almost touch 8 mi / kwh!

Correct. In the winter with electric heat, I expect it to be closer to 3 or 3.5 miles per kWh.

nwdiver · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
That is all well and good if you have a 20+year horizon. At my age, that is not a reasonable horizon. For Anita, it is even less reasonable.

You're essentially buying your electricity in bulk. If you just want your TODAY costs to be lower then you could get a loan to pay for the system. Pay ~$0.10/kWh to the bank instead of ~$0.19/kWh to SDG&E.

john.jackson9213 said:
Just the cost of solar @ $15K adds $.05/mile to the 2.3 cents per mile you calculate.

2.3 cents per mile IS the cost of solar.

I'm not sure which PV system you're referring to but solar is ~$3/w installed. So a 5kW system would cost $15k. 5kW would generate ~8000kWh/yr in SoCal. Over 20 years that's 160MWh or $0.09/kWh; $0.063/kWh after the tax credit.

A loan @ 4.99% with a 20 year term would cost ~$67/mo for 650kWh or ~10 cents per kWh. You'd pay half what you pay now per kWh on day 1.

john.jackson9213 · Oct 9, 2017

nwdiver said:
2.3 cents per mile IS the cost of solar.

I'm not sure which PV system you're referring to but solar is ~$3/w installed. So a 5kW system would cost $15k. 5kW would generate ~8000kWh/yr. Over 20 years that's 160MWh or $0.09/kWh; $0.063/kWh after the tax credit.

A loan @ 4.99% with a 20 year term would cost ~$67/mo for 650kWh or ~10 cents per kWh. You'd pay half what you pay now per kWh on day 1.

Guys,

Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to compare apples to apples.

A Fiat 500e is no Toyota Camry! It is a much smaller car.

Problem here is I don't see an EV that is equal to the Camry in room. Closest I have found is the Camry Hybrid.

I see the 2018 Volt has 53 mile range with an 18.4 KW battery, so 3 miles/KW seems like a reasonable number for "quick calculations". At $.24/Kw that means 8 cents per mile. At $.19/KW it would be $.0633 per mile.

So "assuming" $.105/mile cost for gas and $.065/mile for electricity - 15K miles fuel cost per year. An EV might save (15000 x $.04) $600 in fuel costs???

But that is still comparing a Volt to a Camry - apples to oranges again.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the Cruze to the Volt. Or the Camry to the Camry hybrid. Guess I need to run those numbers also.

oilhammer · Oct 9, 2017

The current technology is better suited to shorter range, city dwelling cars. And smaller cars are better suited to that anyway. So while the 500 (electric or otherwise) is certainly no Camry, it doesn't need to be.

If I had to deal with dense urban traffic, tight parking, a gazillion stop lights, and a bunch of cramped streets, I'd want the smallest car possible, regardless of how it was motivated.

bhtooefr · Oct 9, 2017

Size-wise, closest US-market BEV to a Camry would be a Model S or (when they're more available) Model 3, I'd say. (We didn't get the Renault Fluence ZE, but IIRC that's in the right size range, too.)

VeeDubTDI · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
Guys,

Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to compare apples to apples.

A Fiat 500e is no Toyota Camry! It is a much smaller car.

Problem here is I don't see an EV that is equal to the Camry in room. Closest I have found is the Camry Hybrid.

I see the 2018 Volt has 53 mile range with an 18.4 KW battery, so 3 miles/KW seems like a reasonable number for "quick calculations". At $.24/Kw that means 8 cents per mile. At $.19/KW it would be $.0633 per mile.

So "assuming" $.105/mile cost for gas and $.065/mile for electricity - 15K miles fuel cost per year. An EV might save (15000 x $.04) $600 in fuel costs???

But that is still comparing a Volt to a Camry - apples to oranges again.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the Cruze to the Volt. Or the Camry to the Camry hybrid. Guess I need to run those numbers also.

They Hyundai Ioniq and the Tesla Model 3 are probably the closest competitors to the Tesla. The Hyundai is actually very nicely packaged and, I think, the most efficient EV available currently. The Ioniq plug-in hybrid is coming this fall.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/ioniq/index.aspx

oilhammer · Oct 9, 2017

Isn't the Ioniq based on the smaller Elantra/Forte platform though? They do not look as "large" as a Sonata, which would be a closer match to a Camry. They classify the Ioniq as a "compact" car. I do realize though that those classifications often are not indicative of actual room inside, especially the driver position.

The Ioniq looks like a nice car though. Not sure if it is $30k worth of nice, but certainly not as butt fugly as some others.

VeeDubTDI · Oct 9, 2017

oilhammer said:
Isn't the Ioniq based on the smaller Elantra/Forte platform though? They do not look as "large" as a Sonata, which would be a closer match to a Camry. They classify the Ioniq as a "compact" car. I do realize though that those classifications often are not indicative of actual room inside, especially the driver position.

The Ioniq looks like a nice car though. Not sure if it is $30k worth of nice, but certainly not as butt fugly as some others.

Yeah the Ioniq compares better to the Prius than to the Camry. IMO it's a more functional package than the Sonata due to the liftback, but if you need that rear seat space, the Sonata is also available in a plug-in hybrid. One of our members here has one and likes it very much.

El Dobro · Oct 9, 2017

john.jackson9213 said:
I see the 2018 Volt has 53 mile range with an 18.4 KW battery, so 3 miles/KW seems like a reasonable number for "quick calculations". At $.24/Kw that means 8 cents per mile. At $.19/KW it would be $.0633 per mile.

With a Gen 1 Volt, I usually average around 4mi/kWh, so I would imagine a Gen 2 could beat that average.

Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Gadget Guy

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Gadget Guy

Top Post Dawg

Gadget Guy

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast

Top Post Dawg