Advanced TDI Combustion Pressure Going Higher!

S

SkyPup

Guest
Considered opinion in the automotive industry is that peak cylinder pressures will rise considerably in passenger cars, following the trend in heavy duty trucks, to improve the fundamental operating efficiencies. VW-AUDI Passenger car TDI cylinder pressures of 180 bar or even higher are being planned to meet EURO IV Emissions in 2005 and the even more stringent requirements of EURO V in 2007. The use of VNT turbocompressors with PR outputs over 3.0 and copper-brass intercoolers to return the heated pressurized air back to near ambient temperatures will achieve these goals.

Increasing cylinder pressures by as much as 40 bar or more for VW-AUDI diesel passenger car engines to meet 2005 emissions requires an enormous development in TDI technology.

As regards the engine structure, mechanical and thermal stresses will increase considerably. The engine designer is constrained by package size and fundamental dimensions which cannot be changed, whether for vehicle packaging requirements or manufacturing transfer line requirements in which dimensions such as bore centres cannot be altered for economic production.

Material improvements will be required to improve stiffness and mechanical and thermal fatigue behaviour.

The histogram shows the result of investigations carried out by AVL of Austria, and indicates the maximum safe operating cylinder pressures for the available crankcase materials with normally dimensioned engine designs. Note that V designs have lower maximum cylinder pressure potential than in-line designs because of the reduced number of main bearings and more complex stress loading of the main bearing walls.

It can be clearly seen that only CGI successfully allows the economic and practical realisation of the very high cylinder pressures planned for future TDI engines.

Practical fatigue investigations on production Diesel engines have shown an effective fatigue strength approaching double that of a geometrically equal grey iron block. This enormous advantage allows CGI designs of the future to be simultaneously weight reduced compared to today's designs, whilst still comfortably meeting the massive cylinder pressure rise.

CGI will become the basic engine construction
material of the coming generation of competitive Diesel engines.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Peak combustion on the 4 cylinder A3 TDI's is 130bar, while on the A4 design the peak combustion pressure is 155. On the TDI-R race cars it is already been pumped up to 185bar. Apparently these blocks will be seeing somewhere around 200bar with the increase turbocharged compressor units being planned to meet power and emission and economy goals!


That is some awesome engineering as the largest heavist most powerful truck and bus engines max out at about 200bar too!!!
 

Oldman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Location
Leander,TX,USA
skypupl, CI, CGI, gee I used to know but I'm old. CastGrayIron? I forget. I know in high HP application pressed in Inconel liners, seems to hold up fine (aluminum blocks). don't know peak PSI, but 1000 HP from 2 to 3 liters is easy to do.

I do know tha Honda was one of the first in the H series motor to use a cast in place fiber reinforced aluminum liner with aluminum wall spray bore on their aluminum motor Preludes, as well as one of the first to use cast in place iron liners, that worked.

I'm still waiting for a ceramic liner and piston!
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
TDI engine design is governed by performance objectives and constrained by packaging, durability and fuel economy/emissions requirements. In TDI engines, these conflicting demands can only be satisfied by increasing the peak firing pressure in the cylinder bores (Pmax). This increased combustion load is transferred via the connecting rod to the crankshaft and ultimately applies a fatigue load to the main bearing region of the block. As Pmax in state-of-art turbodiesel passenger car applications has been increasing from approximately 135 bar in 1997 to 160 bar in 2000, and is forecast to increase to 180-200 bar by 2005 to satisfy emissions legislation, conventional materials require larger cross-sections to withstand the fatigue loading. This, however, contradicts packaging and weight criteria.

Rotating-bending, 3-point bending and tension-compression testing all show that the fatigue strength of CGI is approximately double that of conventional gray iron. These results, obtained from polished specimens, have recently been validated in bench tests on TDI inline four cylinder passenger car diesel blocks fitted with dummy crankshafts, pistons and connecting rods. This room temperature bench test caused fatigue failure in the gray iron block at approximately 200 bar while the CGI block withstood testing at up to 380 bar.

This result indicates that cast components, with different geometry and surface conditions, also provide the improved fatigue properties observed in polished specimens. CGI allows for increased loading, often at reduced risk of service failure, without increasing component size or weight.

A recent design analysis conducted by the engine design firm AVL List GmbH of Austria
has evaluated downsizing opportunities for a 1.9 litre diesel engine cylinder block upon conversion from gray iron to CGI. This analysis showed that Pmax could be increased from 135 bar in gray iron to 180 bar in CGI, and that the displacement could simultaneously be reduced from 1.9 liters to 1.3 liters while providing the same performance. In consideration of required add-ons to the CGI engine to increase the performance, such as VNT turbocharger, larger water pump and exhaust manifold, and high performance intercooler.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
CGI - Compacted Graphite Iron, it has a much different and more compact molecular structure and is able to withstand alot more stress and pressure that previous utilized block and head materials.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
LOL


A 1.3 Liter TDI that has the same performance as the current 1.9 Liter TDI.

AWESOME!!!
 

lazlongski

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Location
chicago,il
Skypup, Did they say anything about different engine configurations to get away from the V styles and the associated stresses? I know they have a W so they seem to be rather open on solutions.Like maybe an opposed 8. An opposed 6 has odd harmonics but a four could be smaller and an 8 might work if packaged right.

Alan
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
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Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lazlongski:
Skypup, Did they say anything about different engine configurations to get away from the V styles and the associated stresses? I know they have a W so they seem to be rather open on solutions.Like maybe an opposed 8. An opposed 6 has odd harmonics but a four could be smaller and an 8 might work if packaged right.

Alan
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A W-configuration cannot be easily adapted for a Diesel (read practically impossible). A boxer-6 has no such odd harmonics. In fact, along with an inline-6, it's perfectly balanced; but due to the long crankshaft, a poorly-designed inline-6 can be prone to torsional deflections.

VW probably won't make boxer engines anytime soon because the like undersquare dimensions (small bore, long stroke) that makes for inefficient packaging in an opposed configuration. And VW seems to be unswervingly committed to the 88mm bore spacing.
 

Willy den CGI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Location
Sweden
AVL has ( according to very well informed sources )even been running sucessful longtermtrials with blocks in CGI with peak-pressure around 235 Bar. The everyday-pressure must be below that but it`s better than any other known material. CGI has been known since around 1940 when it suddenly occured when making ductile iron. What is CGI ?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
One of the fundamental requirements of a diesel engine is that the crankshaft be extremely strong. Until recently, there were only two choices in automotive applications.

1. An in-line arrangement, with a main bearing journal on either side of a crankpin.

2. The 90-degree V8 configuration is okay, because the pairs of connecting rods that go out to either bank are side by side on a single crankpin, and it provides perfect primary balance with evenly-spaced cylinder firing. (A 60-degree V12 is okay for the same reasons, but you don't see those in automotive use.)

It is far, far more difficult to make a successful V6 diesel. In order to achieve an evenly-spaced firing order, you have to use offset crankpins, which introduces a whole bunch more potential weak spots in the crankshaft.

The horizontal-opposed arrangement is also challenging. The usual "boxer" arrangement has each set of pistons 180 degrees apart ... you're into the offset-crankshaft problem with too much distance between the main bearings again.

The VRx configuration ("x" being either 6 or 5) I don't think is suitable for diesel engines. Since the head is inclined to the cylinder bore, you're stuck with a whole lot of "dead space" above the upper compression ring.

The in-line 4-cylinder arrangement is going to be around for a while...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI mit UPsolute
 

Turbo Steve

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Location
.
How about a compromise with an inline 5-cylinder TDI, naturally increasing the width of the car while you're at it too.

Volvo's S80 has a nice inline 2.9L / 2.8L 6-cylinder mounted transversely in their FWD sedan and you can even get it with twin Garrett turbos too. Too bad the rest of the car has been downgraded by Ford, though.
 

Willy den CGI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Location
Sweden
The bearings have higher loads in V-engines and that leads to that they have lower maximum cylinder pressure potential than in-line designs because of the reduced number of main bearings and more complex stress loading of them with forces coming from more directions. That is also one of the advantages with this new material. Audi V8 3,3 liter in CGI has solved that with a bearingcap that is cracked and bolted back after initially being melted in one-piece with the block.

The main words in all this is PEAK combustion pressure.

From SkyPup:

Rotating-bending, 3-point bending and tension-compression testing all show that the fatigue strength of CGI is approximately double that of conventional gray iron. These results, obtained from polished specimens, have recently been validated in bench tests on TDI inline four cylinder passenger car diesel blocks fitted with dummy crankshafts, pistons and connecting rods. This room temperature bench test caused fatigue failure in the gray iron block at approximately 200 bar while the CGI block withstood testing at up to 380 bar.
---------
Why not buy some stocks in Sintercast Ltd and surf the waves when they will be in full production ?
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Willy den store, that is not such a bad idea seeing as the massive increase in European Turbodiesel sales and the projected future sales too through the years 2010 on. This is NO JOKE


Not to mention the fact too, that in addition to the millions and millions of Euro turbodiesel passenger cars that are being produced (the new AUDI TDI V-8, BMW Turbodiesel V-8, and VW TDI V-10 NOW already are being produced with these CGI blocks
) will be joined by all the big truck turbodiesel too.

I will check out if there is an ADR on the New York Stock Exhange as I have already read their last three annual reports and they indeed are doing very very well.
 

lazlongski

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Location
chicago,il
tdimeister;Are you sure?
I've rebuilt a couple of opposed sixes from aircraft.

They had sliding tuned counter weights in several spots on the crank counterbalances. I was told that they were for a third harmonic in the verticle couple. I understand what it means but I just may not have expressed it correctly.
http://www.sacskyranch.com/article2.htm

I thought that opposed fours and eights were
perfectly balanced.

Alan

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: lazlongski ]

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: lazlongski ]
 

Davin

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
L.A.
TDI
2001 Golf GLS 5spd blk/blk
Does anyone know anything about CGI? I'm not a materials guy... is it a sintered product?

-davin
 

Willy den CGI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Location
Sweden
Fords has already made their decision in their new topranging 2,7-liter powerplant developed under the codename Lion. It has not been shown yet. When shown , it will boost the CGI-use I think.
Dieselnet news

It is EVEN being slated for export to the US, according to Blueoval.com and internal Ford documents..
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
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Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fincoop:
Someone make a note of that theoretical max of 380 bar. We'll need that when it comes time to chip


Coop
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mickey is already thinking 420 bar
!


DB
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
With a full 25% 50bar increase in combustion pressure, the 1.9L TDI four banger should be good for OEM 200HP and 325 lbs of torque right off the showroom floor!


Now if we could only get ULSD fuel here we might have a chance to drive one of these beasts without having to fly to Europe first!


GO VW TDI and ULSD FUEL!!!
 

Metalnerd

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Nov 14, 2000
Location
Greensburg, PA, USA
TDI
96 Passat TDI Storm Grey
Compacted Graphite Iron (I had to look it up) is a modified cast iron, similar to grey cast iron with minor additions of Magnesium, Calcium and Rare Earth elements. The alloy additives cause the flake graphite typical of grey cast iron to be less sharp and more blocky, probably reducing the stress concentration of sharp graphite flakes.
 

Drizzten

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
Golf GL 5spd, 2002, Candy White
If they increase the compression (and then theoretically increase the engine weight to compensate), do you think they'll lighten the cars in other areas to adjust? Or would the power increases more than fix that admittedly small problem?
 

boatguy

Active member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Location
ithaca ny
John Deere spent a great deal of money and time in the fifties trying to develope 60 degree diesels to replace their two cylinder engines and failed, reverting to inline instead.

One engine you should check out
is the axial piston engine at www.dynacam.com . It is a gasser at present but the company has defense dept. funding to work on diesel development

The pistons move parallel to the output shaft. There are no throws so it isn't really a crankshaft. It's more like a swashplate. It puts out an unbelieveable amount of torque
 

lazlongski

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Location
chicago,il
Talked to the Dynacam people years ago at Oshkosh when they presented the engine for aircraft. They didn't seem happy by the reception. Instead of everyone jumping for joy they got the Spanish Inqusition from some of the smartest people in the industry.
Pro and amateur alike. Dynacam is fine work and the family that has developed it has made great strides to bring it to the current level of sophistication. But....IMPO it has been a solution in search of a problem in the general aviation market.

I don't know about the present but Oshkosh has always been a rough place to present a new product. The one time a year the people from all levels of aviation meet to fraternize. This can be an unusual group.
One night, while sitting at a campfire,
a friend of mine leans over and asks if I know the 2 older gentlemen with whom I had just been shooting the breeze. I said no but you always meet new and interesting people here. My friend smiles and says yeah, but you don't often get a chance to drink beer and shoot the breeze for 2 hours with the guys from Pratt & Whitney who designed the engines for the SR-71.
Doh!
 
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