Larger TDI engine into an F-150

TDIMeister · Jan 27, 2015

The 3.0 V6 TDI would be would be your best bet because it was/is sold here. Scott DeWit had a couple of 2.5 5-cylinder CR-TDI long blocks from the VW Crafter brought in - I don't know whether these include the complete FIE, ECU and harnesses or not. Ask him about that.

The older VE-pump 5-cylinders can also work, retaining the electronic control of the pump or mechanizing it; there's no real magic or mystery with them if one already know the 4-cylinder counterparts.

Alternatively, you can import a 2.5 V6 TDI and ostensibly convert the VP44 pump to a mechanical one to make the swap simpler and control the VNT with this: http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

Most of the challenges will lie in making the VAG ECU talk with the non-VAG chassis (and transmission) in your F150. The fabrication and fitment will be relatively trivial in comparison.

50harleyrider · Jan 27, 2015

One of our trusted vendors, Frans, isn't impressed with the V6 TDI's. Says they're "rubbish". I've heard bad things about the newer 5 cylinder inlines with plasma coated aluminum cylinders....Vega lol. Got to pursue the VE inline 5 and get someone to make me an adapter plate and flex plate. Maybe Scott will bring one over. thx.

tophergrace · Jan 27, 2015

oilhammer said:
Yep, the first gen (that we got). Although many (most?) in Europe were actually 4 cylinders, with a proper manual transmission. All we got were the 5+slushbox. That said, that combo is still quite good at moving those big vans around with a minimal amount of fuel consumption.
We service a boatload of Sprinters (have two here now). They are fantastic machines. It is a shame all other MB products sold here are cushy, tarted up country-club cruisers. Because if you could get a basic, taxi-cab level version of the E-class or C-class, with a very no-nonsense trim level and interior, they would probably be very VERY good cars. The Sprinter's utilitarian accoutrements insure it performs with a minimal amount of fuss for the owner/operators.

Well if you order new you can order what options you want. A local restuarant owner local to me ordered his new MB with crank windows. I think it is a c-class but I cannot remember.

TDIMeister · Jan 27, 2015

I would agree that the early 2.5 V6 TDIs had a history of eating camshafts à la BRM PD, but this was fixed in subsequent engine codes -- AKE was the first and most problematic; the ones starting with B seem to have had the cam problem fixed BAU/BCZ/BDG/BDH/BFC. Apart from the complexity, I have not heard much bad about the 3.0 V6s from the late 2000s on, although I would go for the newest engine codes as they would have had the designs and bugs sorted out.

The only 5-cylinder TDIs with plasma-treated bores are the aluminum-block PD ones used in the Touareg and T5 Transporter; yeah, avoid those. VE-pumped AXG/AHY ones from the T4 Transporter, as well as the Crafter common-rail versions, all have cast iron blocks and are for all intents the same as the familiar 4-cylinder TDIs with an extra cylinder.

Scott_DeWitt · Jan 27, 2015

I've got several 2.5 tdi's.. They are pretty good engines with loads of potential. The main problems are the cams, which was exacerbated by ridiculously extended oil change intervals (15000 miles or something crazy) and people's tendency to drive them till they quit. The bottom ends of the 2.5 is stout. It's very easy to get 220-240 hp and 400 ft/lbs out of a 2.5.

The V10 tdi is a great engine, it's HUGE! and a maintenance pig, it eats cams too, which are a $4000 repair bill. 3.0 is a decent engine, only problems I've seen are with the cam chain drives. 4.2 is probably the cream of the crop 400hp/600ft/lbs is a chip tune away. I just sold my 4.2 A8L TDI but still have a 4.2 tdi engine.

However for simplicity's sake I'd look into the Mercedes engines either the 3.5 turbo diesel or the 3.0 24V turbo diesel. Both can be made mechanical relatively easy, power upgrades are a turbo and nozzle change, and the bottom ends can hold 500+ hp.

50harleyrider · Jan 27, 2015

Scott_DeWitt said:
I've got several 2.5 tdi's.. They are pretty good engines with loads of potential. The main problems are the cams, which was exacerbated by ridiculously extended oil change intervals (15000 miles or something crazy) and people's tendency to drive them till they quit. The bottom ends of the 2.5 is stout. It's very easy to get 220-240 hp and 400 ft/lbs out of a 2.5.

The V10 tdi is a great engine, it's HUGE! and a maintenance pig, it eats cams too, which are a $4000 repair bill. 3.0 is a decent engine, only problems I've seen are with the cam chain drives. 4.2 is probably the cream of the crop 400hp/600ft/lbs is a chip tune away. I just sold my 4.2 A8L TDI but still have a 4.2 tdi engine.

However for simplicity's sake I'd look into the Mercedes engines either the 3.5 turbo diesel or the 3.0 24V turbo diesel. Both can be made mechanical relatively easy, power upgrades are a turbo and nozzle change, and the bottom ends can hold 500+ hp.

Thanks guys, Wow add M-B to the mix now huh? At any rate, Scott can you make adapter plates and flex plate depending on which engine I choose? Fordcummins has plates but only for the 4bt and 6bt. I can probably source a diesel TC and a modded 4r75w,4r100, or a 4wd Allison 5sp because to get my wife on board,it's got to be automatic unfortunately. Do you have the harness and the ecu for the 4.2? That would be too sweet in my truck. You can PM me with details if you like. but I'm sure others would like to know about 4bt alternatives. I bet the 5 cylinder would make its torque smoother without the 1000RPM torque spikes of a 4bt and would be a lot less tranny and TC hungry not to mention less vibraty. Would the 5 be supported in VCDS and by our tuners?

Scott_DeWitt · Jan 27, 2015

I've got a 3.0 liter MB 24V turbo diesel engine I'm mating to a ZF 8 speed automatic from a 2015 dodge 1500 diesel I'll be putting in a Jeep ZJ. So I should have an adapter for that engine to trans combo, I can make others, but need both the engine/trans to CAD up.

I'll pm you details on the 4.2 I have the complete engine with harness, and ecms

K1Cowboy · Jan 27, 2015

50harleyrider said:
One of our trusted vendors, Frans, isn't impressed with the V6 TDI's. Says they're "rubbish". I've heard bad things about the newer 5 cylinder inlines with plasma coated aluminum cylinders....Vega lol. Got to pursue the VE inline 5 and get someone to make me an adapter plate and flex plate. Maybe Scott will bring one over. thx.

I've gotta recide with Frans on these. All my buddies with the V6 tdi's have nothing but horror stories about them. There are guys on the forums here pulling them out to swap them with 1.9's instead.

50harleyrider · Jan 28, 2015

Scott_DeWitt said:
I've got a 3.0 liter MB 24V turbo diesel engine I'm mating to a ZF 8 speed automatic from a 2015 dodge 1500 diesel I'll be putting in a Jeep ZJ. So I should have an adapter for that engine to trans combo, I can make others, but need both the engine/trans to CAD up.

I'll pm you details on the 4.2 I have the complete engine with harness, and ecms

Great .Looking forward to it. How are you going to control the ZF-8? PCS programmer? Are you also using the flex plate,starter and TC from it? I've heard that new 1500 Dodge diesel is pretty gutless. Hope the tranny is better.

oilhammer · Jan 28, 2015

Gutless? Compared to what? They actually run quite well.

Dirtracr95 · Jan 28, 2015

50harleyrider said:
Great .Looking forward Io it. How are you going to control the ZF-8? PCS programmer? Are you also using the flex plate,starter and TC from it? I've heard that new 1500 Dodge diesel is pretty gutless. Hope the tranny is better.

I don't think I have heard anyone call it gutless. I'm positive it's not 5.7L hemi fast but thats not what people should be comparing it to.

50harleyrider · Jan 28, 2015

Dirtracr95 said:
I don't think I have heard anyone call it gutless. I'm positive it's not 5.7L hemi fast but thats not what people should be comparing it to.

The new Dodge isn't a good conversion candidate. Probably be awhile before any are available. I'm really interested now in a 97-01 MB 3.0 inline 6 diesel (0M606.961,.962.,.964. Considering the price of a 4bt, buying a complete rolling donor M-B car for $4k might be the way to go for my conversion project. At 15 degrees slant it may fit in my F-150 quite nicely and I bet my 4r75w tranny would be OK with a diesel TC and PCS controller. I've driven some 97-01 diesel Benz's and they sure aren't a jerky torque monster or noisy ground shaker like the 4bt. Great idea, Scott!

TDIMeister · Jan 28, 2015

K1Cowboy said:
I've gotta recide with Frans on these. All my buddies with the V6 tdi's have nothing but horror stories about them. There are guys on the forums here pulling them out to swap them with 1.9's instead.

Uhhh what? That's news to me. Show me the swap threads.

TDIsyncro · Jan 29, 2015

K1Cowboy said:
I've gotta recide with Frans on these. All my buddies with the V6 tdi's have nothing but horror stories about them. There are guys on the forums here pulling them out to swap them with 1.9's instead.

I have not heard this either. Not sure where you get your opinion from. I would agree the 2.5 V6 was questionable...but the 3.0 CR V'6 seem pretty solid. MB engine is good option. The 4.2TDI would be dream!

50harleyrider · Jan 30, 2015

waiting on your 4.2 tdi info

Scott_DeWitt said:
I've got a 3.0 liter MB 24V turbo diesel engine I'm mating to a ZF 8 speed automatic from a 2015 dodge 1500 diesel I'll be putting in a Jeep ZJ. So I should have an adapter for that engine to trans combo, I can make others, but need both the engine/trans to CAD up.

I'll pm you details on the 4.2 I have the complete engine with harness, and ecms

Is that a common rail engine? Could our friends in Europe get parts,etc. Could Mike or Jeff tune the ecu? I'd love to use my automatic and transfer case if possible but a ZF and M-B 3.0 may be a better option especially with a Holset 40 super turbo. I hope you do a build thread. Is that M-B conversion an OM606 engine? They're scarce. I might just buy a whole 97-01 E300 turbodiesel donor car. I assume you'll use an 0m603 mechanical IP? I have a link on a guy in Europe that does that. Does the zf 8 speed require a PCS controller or did you get a TCU for it? Is that the same tranny the hemi uses with a diesel TC?

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 6, 2015

It's an OM606.962 converted to mechanical pump. I'm hoping to get 350 hp and 500 ft/lbs. There are the 12V versions in Europe running over 500hp..

It's going in a jeep Grand Cherokee

Yes the 8 speed needs a controller.

50harleyrider said:
Is that a common rail engine? Could our friends in Europe get parts,etc. Could Mike or Jeff tune the ecu? I'd love to use my automatic and transfer case if possible but a ZF and M-B 3.0 may be a better option especially with a Holset 40 super turbo. I hope you do a build thread. Is that M-B conversion an OM606 engine? They're scarce. I might just buy a whole 97-01 E300 turbodiesel donor car. I assume you'll use an 0m603 mechanical IP? I have a link on a guy in Europe that does that. Does the zf 8 speed require a PCS controller or did you get a TCU for it? Is that the same tranny the hemi uses with a diesel TC?

50harleyrider · Feb 7, 2015

Are you using Dieselmeken in Sweden to set up your IP? Holset? Retain wastegate on the Holset? This OM606.96* really sounds like the way for me to go too.Time to start collecting parts. Don't forget to start that build thread too as will I.

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 7, 2015

There are also the 2v versions of the Mercedes turbo diesel from 2.5 to 3.5 liters. They are smaller and a smidge lighter than the 24v versions. There is also a 3.2 24v european only engine that has twice the torque of the om606 but its common rail. Great thing about the pump engine is they take well to running on veggie oil.

john.jackson9213 · Feb 7, 2015

Scott, Please tell us about the controller you are going to use on the ZF 8 speed.

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 7, 2015

TDIsyncro said:
I have not heard this either. Not sure where you get your opinion from. I would agree the 2.5 V6 was questionable...but the 3.0 CR V'6 seem pretty solid. MB engine is good option. The 4.2TDI would be dream!

2.5 tdi is a solid engine, problem is the cams. They were not designed for the low zinc oils, has ridiculous oil change intervals (15,000 kms or something) and people drove them until they stopped. Cams wore down and then the followers get spit out and get caught up in the oil pump chain.

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 7, 2015

john.jackson9213 said:
Scott, Please tell us about the controller you are going to use on the ZF 8 speed.

I intend to offer it when I'm done and it's mature.

50harleyrider · Feb 9, 2015

Scott_DeWitt said:
I intend to offer it when I'm done and it's mature.

We understand you're in this thing "for profit". Thanks for all the tidbits anyhow. I'm mature now and want to get my conversion off the ground before I croak

To the poster asking about transmission controllers: PCS controllers are pretty much the recognized conversion controller for electronic trannies. I would advise contacting them directly for the application you are interested in. Also there are only about 4 competent AT experts out there for getting the internals of conversion trannies up to the task. Do some searches. From what I've read, the tranny and torque converter will pretty much make or break an automatic conversion. The zf 8 speed out of a 2016 Dodge 1500 diesel would be awesome but don't count on many showing up used for quite awhile.

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 9, 2015

50harleyrider said:
We understand you're in this thing "for profit". Thanks for all the tidbits anyhow. I'm mature now and want to get my conversion off the ground before I croak
To the poster asking about transmission controllers: PCS controllers are pretty much the recognized conversion controller for electronic trannies. I would advise contacting them directly for the application you are interested in. There are only about 4 competent AT experts out there for getting our conversion trannies up to the task. Do some searches. From what I've read, the tranny and torque converter will pretty much make or break an automatic conversion. That's one reason I'm not gonna do a Cummins conversion. Too much low RPM torque spike.

I'm a PCS dealer in case you don't know.

They don't offer one for the ZF8 speed

, and have zero interest right now in modifying their units to work with the 8 speed.

50harleyrider · Feb 10, 2015

Are they focused only on the Ford electronic trannies? If not, what others? Great to know you're a PCS dealer. Do you plan on another brand unit for your zf8 or using the harness and tcu from the Dodge? It seems like there are so many loose ends for those of us wanting to go automatic

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 10, 2015

50harleyrider said:
Are they focused only on the Ford electronic trannies? If not, what others? Great to know you're a PCS dealer. Do you plan on another brand unit for your zf8 or using the harness and tcu from the Dodge? It seems like there are so many loose ends for those of us wanting to go automatic

The pcs unit will do ford/gm and Zf 4/5 speed transmissions. The 8 speed uses only 5 shifting elements, but 3 are engaged for any given gear.

I'm not sure if the controller can supply the appropriate frequency to the zf 8 speed (the solenoids are pulsed, instead of direct current like the ZF 5hp19).

I think with the appropriate programming the PCS unit can be used but not 100% yet.

I need to do a bit more research and experimentation to get some of these questions answered.

Frans · Feb 11, 2015

TDIsyncro said:
I have not heard this either. Not sure where you get your opinion from. I would agree the 2.5 V6 was questionable...but the 3.0 CR V'6 seem pretty solid. MB engine is good option. The 4.2TDI would be dream!

The 2.5 v6 tdi isn't the best engine ever made. Camshaft problems, injection pump problems combined with poor mileage.

The 3.0 v6 tdi is better, however the early ones did have issues with the timing chain tensioner. (The engine needs to come out to replace it, gearbox side) . Some 3.0 are equipped with the bv50 turbo, which are not as good as the 2260.

The 4.2 v8 tdi is the best, large tdi engine ever made imo. I have seen these in audi A8s with over 400-500k kms. Still running first turbos/injectors/injectorpump/aircopump/alternator and even the starter. As long as you maintain these vehicles properly(oil/filters), these will go another 400k. Due to the high torque down below of this v8 diesel, you can get 30-35mpg on the highway with a 2 ton audi A8.

Putting a 4.2v8 tdi into a f150 doesn't make sence btw. You'd better buy a f250 powerstroke and save yourself the hassle

.

REDNECKDZL · Feb 11, 2015

is there that much electronics on a 4.2 that makes it a nightmare, would be a fun motor to have in a muscle car

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 12, 2015

REDNECKDZL said:
is there that much electronics on a 4.2 that makes it a nightmare, would be a fun motor to have in a muscle car

yes 2 ECu's trans inputs immobilizer etc.

Scott_DeWitt · Feb 12, 2015

Frans said:
The 4.2 v8 tdi is the best, large tdi engine ever made imo.

You must be forgetting about the 500hp/740 ft/lb 6.0 V12 tdi in the Q7.

It's Uber expensive though.

whitedog · Feb 12, 2015

Scott, he said its the BEST large TDI... Maybe he thinks the V12 isn't all that.

What about the 5 cylinder 3.2 from the Transit? There may be some wrecks out there by now. Its mated to a Ford trans so that shouldn't be a problem.

Larger TDI engine into an F-150

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