Need someone near Oakland, CA who can evaluate engine damage

LCARC · Nov 30, 2010

A few months ago my 2001 Beetle TDI's engine seized up, cause undetermined although the timing belt was still intact. I took it to European Auto Repair in Alameda to get some assessment of the damage, which amounted to removal of the battery and valve cover; they charged me for 2 hrs of labor, and admittedly, I wasn't ready to spend even more just to hear that my whole engine was toast. When Albert saw that some lifters were scarred, he concluded that he would warranty his work only with an engine rebuild, approx. $5-6k. He seemed hesitant about proposing to do anything less. However, he did rule out biodiesel as the culprit.

The cylinder head was not removed nor was the oil checked for debris (what did the shop do during the 2 hrs?), so the true extent of the damage is not known. As you might expect, I'd like to get a second opinion though I am not a DIY when it comes to cars. Can anyone assist? One option is to take it to a garage such as Tomas Sport Tuning in Berkeley, which I've never used but has a 5-star rating on Yelp. Another is to hire someone with decent TDI experience to pull the head here at my home and assess the damage. I'd hate to tow it to the garage, see bent valve rods, and hear that a major engine rebuild/replacement is needed, then tow it back to my house if i decide it just isn't worth it. Money's kind of tight right now, as you might have guessed.

Any advice or suggestions about someone with enough skills to do this bit of work are most appreciated. Feel free to PM as well. Thanks!

Yblocker · Dec 1, 2010

You say the engine seized. Did you have it towed to Alameda? Or is it currently running? Did it run low on oil?

krystlelite81 · Dec 1, 2010

What happened when the engine "seized"? Were you driving and it died or did you go to start it one morning? Have the other timing components been checked (tb tensioner, idler pulleys) besides just the belt? Like "Yblocker" asked did you run it low on oil? How many miles are you at? Is you CEL on?

LCARC · Dec 4, 2010

A brief history about the car: the previous owner had the timing belt replaced at 55k miles. In February of this year, I had the belts and water pump replaced by a local shop (not European Auto Repair) at 97k since the timing belt appeared to begin cracking; also, there was a slight oil leak, so camshaft + crankshaft seals were replaced. After 5 days in the shop, I picked up the car but was told to bring it back the next day to have the glow plug harness replaced. I noticed large clouds of white exhaust as I drove, and the next day, the car would not start. It was towed back to the shop where the repair was completed, and though the car seemed to run fine, I had my doubts since the shop never fully explained the course of events while the car was in their hands.

In March I had another mechanic replace the seals in my fuel injection pump. It seemed prudent to have him review the timing belt job done by the other shop. He found that the tb tensioner pulley (which I still have) had a bent tab and that the timing had gone out of spec; in fact he showed this to me on the vag-com. In retrospect, I perhaps should have just taken the car back to the other shop to make a warranty-covered correction. However, I was getting rather exasperated with the prospect of having to spend more time on repair issues, so I had this mechanic replace the pulley and readjust the timing.

In mid-Sept., the engine mishap occurred at 101,000 miles while in operation. No warning lights came on at the time, there was a loud pop followed by a chugging sound which tapered off. My wife and I turned off the ignition, and the car would not restart, nor does the car run now. Later I checked the oil level, no problem there.

Since then I've spent more time doing research and talking with more mechanics. I'm aware that improper tension might result in the tb belt skipping a tooth; European Auto Repair made no mention of this despite some follow-up conversations I've had with Albert. I doubt that we'll come to any conclusions about the cause of my woes through this thread (though I appreciate the effort), hence, my question about having someone pull the cylinder head off here at my house. After I get a better idea of the extent of damage, I'll make a decision about repairing or selling the car as is. Thanks again.

Yblocker · Dec 4, 2010

Can the starter turn the engine? I'm trying to help you more closely define "seized" which implies that the engine is locked up and the crank won't turn. If the engine can rotate, then removing the valve and timing covers, (easy) would likely be the next step. If the engine is locked up, then yes, at least the head will likely need to be removed...

zanzabar · Dec 4, 2010

Wish I could help, but no time. I would start the diagnosing by finding a shop with a borescope that can go in through the glow plug holes and look for valve/piston contact. I find it hard to imagine that the head is salvageable after what sounds like certain botched timing belt work, but it's probably worth verifying the extent of the damage. Even if it's -just- the head, it's still going to cost almost as much to fix this car as the car is worth, might start thinking about selling and picking up a replacement.

tothemax · Dec 4, 2010

Tim at Tomas Sport Tuning in Berkeley is top notch and could certainly help you for a reasonable price.

Also, you should look to make sure you did not just pop a boost hose loose. Specially if you heard a pop and then lost power... may be just be a boost leak like rocketeer here

Also, if your car is in your garage or somewhere you can work on it, feel free to burrow my timing belt tools and just check you timing...

In any case, tim at TST is a fair guy and will find your problem pretty quick.

Keep us posted

MAXRPM · Dec 5, 2010

Sounds like the valves kissed the pistons to me, when you have several mechanics messing with aligining the TB and pump, and you have clouds of smoke tells me that your engine was way off on timing, not being pesimist but you probably have bent valves because of the timing was off, not because your TB snapped. I hope I am wrong though.

LCARC · Dec 5, 2010

Turbo doesn't seem to be connected with my problem.

When I last tried starting the engine on the day of the mishap, we only heard a clicking sound. At European Auto Repair, Albert never confirmed if the engine had seized up, or even if he had tried starting the car. Granted, I'm not the best at car talk, so I asked him to put in writing at least some brief info about what he had found. To date, I've received nothing, probably out of legal concerns. Also, you all might be interested in knowing that he is NOT a fan of the TDI club...at any rate, thanks to everyone for chiming in on this.

Windex · Dec 5, 2010

I would not try to start the car any more. I would remove the top timing cover, and try to turn the engine over by hand with a breaker bar on the crank sprocket. You had mentioned that the first garage had noticed "some of the lifters are scarred".

What you have said so far points in the direction of a timing belt mishap, which will cost $2000 minimum at retail rates. If you don't mind turning the wrenches, and have the luck that no connecting rods are bent, you can keep the repair down to $1100-1200.

Yblocker · Dec 5, 2010

PM sent

MAXRPM · Dec 5, 2010

LCARC said:
Turbo doesn't seem to be connected with my problem.

When I last tried starting the engine on the day of the mishap, we only heard a clicking sound. At European Auto Repair, Albert never confirmed if the engine had seized up, or even if he had tried starting the car. Granted, I'm not the best at car talk, so I asked him to put in writing at least some brief info about what he had found. To date, I've received nothing, probably out of legal concerns. Also, you all might be interested in knowing that he is NOT a fan of the TDI club...at any rate, thanks to everyone for chiming in on this.

I am not suprised about him or any other mechanic not being a fan of the TDI club,,,I have always said most of the shops from Bay area, they just do not know how to do TB in a TDI or any major stuff, all this shops they pretend they know TDI's and they do not, , it is always best to go to the GTG and have a guru and work on your car, , you are not the first that this happens and not the last one either,,,,I'm sorry to hear about the problem about your car, but maybe you can take all 4 glow plugs out (10mm deep socket) then you can hook up a 17mm wrench on the cam sproket and try to turn the engine by hand to see what happen, I hope you figure this problem out, and keep us posted.

Yblocker · Dec 5, 2010

When I bought my poorly maintained '97 in September, I quickly learned here that I needed to get the timing belt done soon. I looked at the "Trusted Mechanics by State" list and that Alameda shop is listed. I called them to get a quote which was around $750. In the end I bought the tools and with the help of this forum did the job myself slowly over a weeks time. I'm glad I did now as the car is great, but am wondering about that shop and if they really DO know the TDI engine.

cfm56 · Dec 5, 2010

get a member to look at it who knows TDI's. Or get a guru if you can find one in your area to properly diagnose it. if its a botched timing belt job, contact the shop and let them know what happened as they should be the ones repairing the car if they screwed up. If they decide to deny things and try to put the blame elsewhere, look into a lawyer as well as contact the BBB. HOpe things work out for you

krystlelite81 · Dec 6, 2010

Did you get to look at the lifters yourself? We usually take a picture and send it to our customers when we notice scarring on lifters or the cam (or any other issues that may come up)...I'd be interested to see pictures of the cam and lifters if you could post them...
BTW we (Good Guys Diesel) really like TDI club

krystlelite81 · Dec 16, 2010

LCARC asked me to post some pics of his cam and lifters...You can see in one of the pics that the lifter is shattered. The pic of the tensioner is his tensioner that Justin found and replaced last March...

tothemax · Dec 20, 2010

Are you pulling the head off?

Is there any damage to the internals?

Did any lifter shrapnel get aspirated inside the cylinders?

LCARC · Apr 25, 2011

Here's how everything turned out. A few months ago, I finally decided to take the car to Tomas Sport Tuning in Berkeley. They determined that the cylinder head was damaged beyond repair (at least for their comfort level), the engine block was fine, that the culprit was likely an improperly tightened cam sprocket. There was scoring around the end of the cam shaft, indicating that the sprocket became loose at some point, spun around the shaft, which in turn threw off the timing and damaged some lifters. However, at the time TST removed the sprocket, its bolt fastener appeared to have been over-torqued and the timing belt was fine, so did a previously damaged lifter finally fail? Anyway, we replaced the head with the Spanish aftermarket version purchased from Bora Parts, and the timing belt & water pump all needed to be replaced again to ensure my warranty for the repair. The car has been running fine for the last 7 weeks, but my fuel mileage has dropped off to about 34 mpg, so we're still trying to resolve this. Final cost of repair was about $3500 incl. a new head, TB, & WP.

Lessons learned:

Avoid Car Care Service in Alameda (the shop that messed up my engine in the first place). They don't understand TDIs and tried to blame it all on biodiesel although this was clearly a mechanical, not fuel-related issue. They refused to refund the cost of their original repair, never mind the cost to get the car up and running again.
AAA was useless in this matter - Although Car Care Service is still a AAA-certified garage and I'm a AAA member, AAA was useless as an arbitrator. Their certification program doesn't appear to cover a garage's ability to perform diesel work, and the AAA rep I spoke with wasn't even aware that VW makes diesel autos!
European Auto Repair (Alameda) - Although Albert, the owner, might know his stuff, his general disdain for the TDIClub, computers, and the Internet makes me wonder how he stays current. More importantly, he never really seemed interested in providing any suggestions or options other than my engine needed to be rebuilt.
Tomas Sport Tuning - So far, they've been responsive and good with follow-up and offer lifetime warranty on labor. Since I'm not good with cars, I need that bit of reassurance and access to local labor despite whatever talents the TDI gurus might possess.

Anyway, I still have the old head, plus the replaced TB, WP and serpentine pulley (barely used) if anyone is interested in salvaging them. I am asking a modest amount for them to recoup some of my costs.

Also, I'm very involved in marketing for career & technical education at Laney College, Oakland; if anyone thinks that passenger diesel auto repair might be a useful training program, please PM me. Obviously, solid TDI mechanics are hard to find!!

NewTdi · Apr 25, 2011

We have a very good "local" resource that will travel up here from central CA. If you have any questions feel free to send a pm to matt-98ahu. He was just up here this past week-end doing a clutch and TB job. As for the mileage drop I have found that my thermostat had gone bad and my mileage had dropped 5-7mpg.
TST is a good shop and know their stuff! As for a local resource that will warranty their work they are the ones.

tothemax · Apr 29, 2011

Put me down if we can get torque and HP>>>

Call Erik at LCD... i think he's got his dyno figured out by now

highender · Apr 30, 2011

I find the GOOD Guys Diesel in Santa Cruz, who are fans of Tdi Club, to be honest and worthy of the price, in general.

European Auto Repair in Alameda, charges a lot, and are NOT fans of the TDI club. They spoke disparagingly of this site and of the people on it. Hmm........

To be fair, I think they do a good job in general, but very pricey.

apaterso · May 3, 2011

We, the East Bay, really need a local guru.

I had European Auto in Alameda do my fuel filter and something went amiss as fuel was squirting out of the canister when I started the car. Smell gave it away. I drove back to EA and they redid it. But all that amounted to was taking off the top refitting the green O-Ring and screwing the top back on. If that is all there is to changing a fuel filter I should do the next one myself. Anyway after the green o-ring was reseated the leak stopped and all is good.

Maybe i should just bite the bullet and buy a bentley and a VAG-COM. Or take a diesel auto mechanic class.......

dezeljunky · May 3, 2011

An interesting read and glad it all worked out and we're are all the wiser

apaterso,

You don't need a mechanic class or vag-com to do a fuel filter... lots of DIY instructions on it. I think the newer ones in your MK5 is probably easier than in my MK4. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty and go slowly. I'm assuming you have at least done an oil change yourself? There's lots of great folks on here and even great DIY articles on myturbodiesel.com that will make your job easier. http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/2009-2010-VW-TDI-fuel-filter.htm

highender · May 4, 2011

dezeljunky said:
An interesting read and glad it all worked out and we're are all the wiser

apaterso,

You don't need a mechanic class or vag-com to do a fuel filter... lots of DIY instructions on it. I think the newer ones in your MK5 is probably easier than in my MK4. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty and go slowly. I'm assuming you have at least done an oil change yourself? There's lots of great folks on here and even great DIY articles on myturbodiesel.com that will make your job easier. http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/2009-2010-VW-TDI-fuel-filter.htm

I have done a lot of fuel filters... I can show you how...I am just off 580 freeway, about 15 minutes from you....and I have a Motive vaccum to bleed the fuel lines.

krystlelite81 · May 6, 2011

LCARC said:
Here's how everything turned out. A few months ago, I finally decided to take the car to Tomas Sport Tuning in Berkeley. They determined that the cylinder head was damaged beyond repair (at least for their comfort level), the engine block was fine, that the culprit was likely an improperly tightened cam sprocket. There was scoring around the end of the cam shaft, indicating that the sprocket became loose at some point, spun around the shaft, which in turn threw off the timing and damaged some lifters. However, at the time TST removed the sprocket, its bolt fastener appeared to have been over-torqued and the timing belt was fine, so did a previously damaged lifter finally fail? Anyway, we replaced the head with the Spanish aftermarket version purchased from Bora Parts, and the timing belt & water pump all needed to be replaced again to ensure my warranty for the repair. The car has been running fine for the last 7 weeks, but my fuel mileage has dropped off to about 34 mpg, so we're still trying to resolve this. Final cost of repair was about $3500 incl. a new head, TB, & WP.

Lessons learned:

Avoid Car Care Service in Alameda (the shop that messed up my engine in the first place). They don't understand TDIs and tried to blame it all on biodiesel although this was clearly a mechanical, not fuel-related issue. They refused to refund the cost of their original repair, never mind the cost to get the car up and running again.
AAA was useless in this matter - Although Car Care Service is still a AAA-certified garage and I'm a AAA member, AAA was useless as an arbitrator. Their certification program doesn't appear to cover a garage's ability to perform diesel work, and the AAA rep I spoke with wasn't even aware that VW makes diesel autos!
European Auto Repair (Alameda) - Although Albert, the owner, might know his stuff, his general disdain for the TDIClub, computers, and the Internet makes me wonder how he stays current. More importantly, he never really seemed interested in providing any suggestions or options other than my engine needed to be rebuilt.
Tomas Sport Tuning - So far, they've been responsive and good with follow-up and offer lifetime warranty on labor. Since I'm not good with cars, I need that bit of reassurance and access to local labor despite whatever talents the TDI gurus might possess.

Anyway, I still have the old head, plus the replaced TB, WP and serpentine pulley (barely used) if anyone is interested in salvaging them. I am asking a modest amount for them to recoup some of my costs.

Also, I'm very involved in marketing for career & technical education at Laney College, Oakland; if anyone thinks that passenger diesel auto repair might be a useful training program, please PM me. Obviously, solid TDI mechanics are hard to find!!

LCARC, Glad to hear you are finally back on the road. Bummer about the drop in mileage but I'm sure it will get resolved soon.

Also, Highender, thanks for the awesome words and support!!!

apaterso · May 9, 2011

dezeljunky said:
An interesting read and glad it all worked out and we're are all the wiser

apaterso,
I'm assuming you have at least done an oil change yourself? There's lots of great folks on here and even great DIY articles on myturbodiesel.com that will make your job easier. http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/2009-2010-VW-TDI-fuel-filter.htm

Actually I don't do my own oil changes, I can but it isn't worth the effort. The dealer will do them for $70 and I can't do it myself for less once I factor in my time and oil disposal. Plus they will wash my car too.

LCARC · Apr 8, 2012

For anyone still reading this thread, I later filed complaints in 2011 with the Better Business Bureau and the Bureau of Automotive Repair (CA state agency). BBB was totally useless, they just push paper around. The BAR agent works out of Hercules and actually paid a visit to Car Care Service, part of their regular protocol when complaints are filed. The agent discussed the matter with CCS' owner, then explained that my only recourse was to go to Small Claims Court. Though the agent was very patient with me over the phone, BAR is rather limited in what it can do, and has no facility for examining auto damage nor any authority to determine who is at fault where mechanical matters are concerned.

To help make my case, I requested letters from all the mechanics that examined the car after Car Care Service's timing belt job. I did receive one from European Auto Service, TST provided an explanation via email (but declined to put anything on letterhead), and to date, I have received nothing from Justin Grow despite having made the request in November. All of this has left me very frustrated in terms of the time, money, and agitation that I've had to put up with despite my best efforts to be pro-active with maintenance and safety. What makes up a good mechanic??!! You decide....I just hope that no one else has to go through an ordeal like this.

Need someone near Oakland, CA who can evaluate engine damage

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