PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 1 (N240): Regulation Range Exceeded

I'm starting this thread as I originally thought I had an ASR problem because the light is coming on. After scanning for faults it seems that the fault code is in the engine module and it is what is causing the problem.

I logged measuring block 018 and when the ASR light comes on the value of injector 1 goes to 47 and stays there until I stop and restart the car.

Here is the log file - http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-018-ENG-Jan11.csv (see line 459)

Some history:

In September about 300 miles into a 400 mile journey the car started to misfire. I got it to a VW specialist who ran diagnostics and found the fault was at cylinder one. They checked the wiring and tried moving the injectors to see if the fault moved but it didnt. They ran out of time and I got the car recovered home.

Next I did a compression test and got nothing on cylinder one. Pulled the head to find part of a valve missing. I got a reconditioned cylinder head and fitted it. I did about 500 trouble free miles and then went on holiday for October so the car sat for a month. When I came back I did another 500 or so trouble free miles.

Then in December the traction control light came on with what felt like a light shudder, sometimes worse than others. I dont seem to have a drop in performance but it does seem to be using a bit more fuel. Saying this we've had a lot of cold weather so in the mornings i've left it running to clear the windows so this could be why the consumption has increased.

Here is the original thread I started - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302523

Worth noting I replaced the injector loom a couple of years ago when I had a shudder problem that turned out to be the DMF so I think it should be fine. However because the fault goes when I stop and start the car I think it must be something electrical?

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions for what I should do next?

The car has 154k miles and if/when I get to the bottom of this problem it will be getting sold!

I agree with electrical issue being likely.

You most likely have a chafed wire in the loom, so that your injector signal is shorting with an ASR control line.

I would check the resistances as specified in this PD fuel check list. Look in Post #7 for a link for troubleshooting the injectors.

Can you post block 13 and 23 data as well?

Thanks for the reply. I'll log blocks 13 and 23 tomorrow and check the resistances.

Just to confirm is the jack and plug referenced in your PDF the injector loom and round twist off plug?

blued said:

Just to confirm is the jack and plug referenced in your PDF the injector loom and round twist off plug?

Click to expand...

That is correct.

You may not have group 23, if not, do not be concerned.

Here are the log files

http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-013-ENG-Jan11.csv
http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-023-ENG-Jan11.csv

They were taken at idle with the engine at operating temperature. I couldn't remember if 023 is meant to be taken at idle or while driving? I did rev and hold the revs twice and this is marked.

I didnt think about this until afterwards but when I ran in to get my laptop I shut the car off so these readings were taken without the light on. I can take more readings this evening with the light on if necessary.

Interestingly I found log files for 013 and 023 on my web hosting from 2007 (assuming the date in the file is correct). Probably when I was diagnosing what turned out to be the DMF. Here they are

http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-013.csv
http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-023.csv

I will try to measure resistances this evening.

Blued,
All of those links lead to the same group 18 log file; not to what the titles seem to indicate.
Dan

Sorry I'm not sure what I did there. They should be ok now?

Yep, ok now.

ok I took some readings. It was dark and raining so I'd like to do it again in daylight to be sure I have good readings.

Plug Key Off Resistance to Ground:
(I'm not sure about this first set of readings, it was on the 2000k setting and the decimal point flickered and didnt appear at all on the first reading)
2-13.97
3-12.83
5-13.90
6-13.83
7-0.87

Plug Key Off Voltage to Ground:
2-0.03V
3-0.03V
5-0.03V
6-0.03V
7-0.03V

Plug Key On Voltage to Ground:
2-0.22V
3-0.35V
5-0.21V
6-0.21V
7-2.79V

Jack Key Off Resistance to Ground:
All out of range on my tester at 2000k setting

Jack Key Off Resistance to 7:
2-0.39ohm
3-0.39ohm
5-0.39ohm
6-0.35ohm

I also logged all 3 measuring blocks while the traction control light was lit on the dash.

http://www.weekendwasted.co.uk/LOG-01-013-018-023.CSV (the markers show where I revved to 2500)

Something else I've noticed is it takes longer to start than it used to, I'd put this down to the cold weather but we've had a few milder days and it still turns over more than it used to before firing both when cold and hot. This isnt since replacing the head, but sometime after I came back from being away for a month.

Do these readings point to anything?

I think those multimeter readings all look normal.

I think, after reading the original thread, that you mayhave an ECU problem. Water in the ECU. Instead of two wires shorting, the short is in the ECU itself. Of course it could be either situation, in actuality.

If you get an ice and snow dam in your car's windscreen plenum that traps water around the ECU, the ECU can aspirate water in through its vent. The water causes corrosion in the components in the ECU and they start internal shorting. If the water stays in long enough, the ECU is trashed. Since all you are getting now is two abnormal ECU outputs (the ASR system fault is due to an ECU fault), it seems this is more probable).

In the one this last weekend, a tuner was present, we gave him the flakey ECU, he opened it, poured out the water, sprayed it with air (I think it was air - maybe some cleaner?) then scrubbed it off with a brush, dried it with a heat gun, and it worked again. We had spent several hours proving the problem was not a wiring or relay issue. He fixed it in 15 minutes.

Just another possibility.

That certainly sounds like a possibility, we had a lot of snow from the end of November through until end of December so there has been plenty lying on the car. I'll need to wait until the weekend to remove the ECU unless it is a quick and easy job? Is the ECU straight forward to open?

It looked easy enough when Jeff did it. about4 screws, but I did not see what type of screw head.

jcrews, please step in here if you want.

Dan

Worn out nozzle...

After about 100K these things are shot. They may run but leak like a sieve on the test bench. Flows are all over the place (up, down, all over).

If the wiring checks out, next step would be to check the injector out.

Internal leakage is another thing that can wreak havoc on the flow and control of the injector.

Pull data from Block 13.

DBW,
He has put data from blocks 13 and 23 in post #6.

It is an intermittent problem, at least the one he is after right now, it goes from so-so balance but running good to zip for one injector. A fault shows up from the ECU to the Brake controller at the same time, giving him an ASR light.

The ASR lamp is turning on only because there is a fault code stored in the ECM.

This looks to me like injector failure. The injector fault code is 47. According to a label file, this is a bit value, stored in 1 byte.

47 is 00101111: samples too low, begin injection period out of spec., max. current reached, small quantity or injector faulty, control while starting, and undefined. This looks like a conversion error, so 48 may be the actual value: 00110000: Samples too low, BIP out of spec.

Does 018 ever record a value other than 0 or 47? Is there any correlation to engine temperature?

In group 23, the switch time deviation is 127ms (probably out of range).

If it is not a worn out nozzle (I wouldn't be at all surprised if they tested poorly), the pumpjet adjustment is incorrect. It looks like BIP is commanded, and the injector responds way too late.

Do you have any details about how the injectors were reinstalled, especially as far as adjustment is concerned?

I agree that the ASR light is turning on only because of a fault code stored on the ECM.

I just do not see that an injector fault in the ECM would cause an ASR lamp to come on. I have seen several different injector faults, including some unplugged ones, and none ever caused a brake unit fault.

So I was thinking that two components in the ECU may be interacting, causing this set of symptoms. Either by bridging inside (water, corrosion) or externally by wires fretting and losing insulation, touching conductors.

Looks as if I might learn something here. Always a good thing.

Drivbiwire said:

Worn out nozzle...

After about 100K these things are shot. They may run but leak like a sieve on the test bench. Flows are all over the place (up, down, all over).

If the wiring checks out, next step would be to check the injector out.

Internal leakage is another thing that can wreak havoc on the flow and control of the injector.

Pull data from Block 13.

Click to expand...

He got a reconditioned head , I assume it also included injectors.
even if it didn't , 100K shouldn't be an issue with PD injectors

The reconditioned head didn't come with injectors I used the original ones and the rockers (not sure if this is the correct term for the bit that sits on the top of the injector) were also taken from my previous head so I left the adjustments on them as they were. If adjusting these may help does anyone know how I go about it?

While diagnosing the misfire prior to replacing the head I unplugged injector one on the loom and ran the car to see if it made a difference. As far as I remember this caused the engine management light to come on, not the traction control.

I can swap injectors 1 and 2 to rule out a faulty injector - this will have to wait until Saturday so I can do it in daylight. However I would expect a worn out injector to cause a fault all of the time? The car runs normally until the light comes on and then there is that definite shudder, sometimes worse than others.

Something else that may back up the faulty ECU problem is every now and again the low coolant warning comes on when I start the car. It happened this morning for the first time in a week or so. The coolant level is correct and this also started happening in November.

Further to that I've just looked at the fault codes I pulled the other week and there was an alarm code

Address 46: Central Conv.
Controller: 1J0 959 799 AH
Component: 4V Zentral-SG Komf. 0001
Coding: 00256
Shop #: WSC 00028
3 Faults Found:
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12)
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
00943 - Heated Exterior Mirror: Driver Side (Z4)
35-00 - -
00944 - Heated Exterior Mirror: Passenger Side (Z5)
35-00 - -

I've always got the mirror codes and I assume they are burnt out because they dont defrost but the alarm code I believe is new.

Thanks for the help so far.

jcrews said:

Does 018 ever record a value other than 0 or 47? Is there any correlation to engine temperature?

Click to expand...

I also got 4 while logging 018 at both below and above 80C engine temp.

Drivbiwire said:

Worn out nozzle...

After about 100K these things are shot. They may run but leak like a sieve on the test bench. Flows are all over the place (up, down, all over).

If the wiring checks out, next step would be to check the injector out.

Internal leakage is another thing that can wreak havoc on the flow and control of the injector.

Pull data from Block 13.

Click to expand...

100k for PD unit injectors? Isn't that too fast?

"The reconditioned head didn't come with injectors I used the original ones and the rockers (not sure if this is the correct term for the bit that sits on the top of the injector) were also taken from my previous head so I left the adjustments on them as they were. If adjusting these may help does anyone know how I go about it?"

I think this may be your problem. If rockers are swapped AND/OR another head is used, the injector lash adjustment is supposed to be set. I would at least eliminate this possibility before buying a new injector and possibly having the same issue.

Bentley details this, but basically a dial indicater with holder is used to determine precise injector rocker travel. I forget the specific details. Once I get home I could post the procedure if you like. (I'm at work now).

--Nate

I would also set the lash before pulling the injector.

It is not difficult.

Nate, that would be great if you dont mind posting up the details. I found a post on it but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. I don't have a dial indicater so will have to borrow one or add one to my toolbox depending on price.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=191919

jcrews said:

Pumpjet R&R for AJM

Click to expand...

Thanks that will be useful.

Henrick said:

100k for PD unit injectors? Isn't that too fast?

Click to expand...

At 100K the nozzles are shot, they will run, they may flow around spec but when tested they fail every test on the bench.

The 30,000 psi takes a heavy toll on the nozzle. The best insurance for these is a CAT filter setup.

We are moving to stock only DLC nozzles in the next month to maximize the life of these when repaired. This is the only way I can see getting a realistic 200K out of a set of nozzles.

The Funny part is that Bosch uses a DLC coating on the plunger to increase its life! Why they did not do this on the nozzle is beyond me...probably cost truth be told.

Wear region on the nozzle: #1 Needle (upper portion) and, #2 nozzle holes (big variable here) since some seem to flow and spray pretty well.

The leakback on these is always very high with more than 50K again this is caused by wear on the needle and fuel leaking back up into the injector during injection. This is solved with the DLC by eliminating this as a wear region.

blued said:

They checked the wiring and tried moving the injectors to see if the fault moved but it didnt.

Click to expand...

I see a lot of talk of the injector being the possible cause, but wouldn't this rule that out?

If the fault did not follow the injector, wire issue.

Swapping the injectors was done before the head was replaced to diagnose the misfire I had which turned out to be part of a valve missing. The injectors haven't been swapped over since this fault code appeared.

I was just out attempting to remove the ECU. Unfortunately on a UK car the wipers and possibly the mechanism under the scuttle panel are going to have to be removed to get at it. My drivers side wiper doesn't want to come off despite removing the bolt and it has started to rain so I'm going to leave this until the weekend. I wish I had access to my garage!