Coolant temp dropping

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Thermostat

craig01b said:
Sticky thermostat....mine did the same thing for 3 years in the colder temps. They fail open, and idling will cool the engine. No panic, and if your driving is mostly highway, its not really a worry. Its a curious thing the first time it happens, it makes up appreciate the efficiency of the diesel at idle.

Craig
Assuming the theory is correct that the thermostat "fails open," then upon removal would it still be open?

Back last February, I took a friend up to Dayton, OH on a very cold day (in the low 20sF) to pick up a Vanagon he had purchased. On the way back, with me following him, he drove about 60-62 MPH. My TDI temp guage stayed below the 190 mark most of the 255 mile return trip. And, it was obvious that the engine was not putting out a lot of heat....... we kept the heater temp set to the max with the fan on the second speed setting. At the time, I just assumed the low temp issue was because we were driving slow in the cold temps. On the way up, under the same conditions, with speed at or slightly above 70 mph, there was plenty of heat and the temp guage stayed stright up (190 reading).

Maybe I need to change my Thermostat........ would be good to know if the it will be open or not (assuming it is bad).
 

ubercam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Location
Hertfordshire
TDI
2007 Golf Match TDI 1.9L (BXE) M5
I just buttoned everything up. I took a round-trip drive to the city with the Vag-Com monitoring the engine module measuring blocks. It's really neat to watch block 015 to see your L/hr and mg/stroke fuel consumption, but fairly difficult to do while driving :p

Anyway, Vag-Com tells me that the maximum coolant temp during my drive was 68°C. Odd, considering that I know the thermostat opened up. I could feel hot coolant at the top of the lower rad hose after I shut off the car. I also squeezed both the lower and upper rad hoses at the same time and I could hear the coolant flowing through the block & head, and bubbling in the expansion tank, so obviously it was open. I also had unbelievably amazing heat the entire drive, unlike last night. I'm not sure, but I'm starting to think that last thermostat was bad.

My guess is that the water temperature sender is faulty. Does it make sense that it could report 68°C when the 88°C thermostat was open? It's not throwing any codes or a CEL, but somehow I still don't think it's working quite right.

Can anyone else make heads or tails of this?

I'd like to thank everyone who's spent time answering questions here. It's nice to know there's a great place to come to for help!
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
AndyBees: a bit lower than 20 F is a cold day for you? Thats -8 C. Here we often have -20 C and less so that's -5 F and less :D
 

ubercam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Location
Hertfordshire
TDI
2007 Golf Match TDI 1.9L (BXE) M5
hid3 said:
AndyBees: a bit lower than 20 F is a cold day for you? Thats -8 C. Here we often have -20 C and less so that's -5 F and less :D
Just you wait until January/February, that's when winter really starts here in sunny southern Manitoba... -40°C baby! And that's before the windchill! If you don't plug your car in, you don't start. Period. The battery doesn't even have enough juice for the starter to overcome compression. Boosting doesn't help. The wait for CAA is at least 8 hours on any given day/night colder than about -30°C. The only happy people are tow truck drivers haha.

And to think that some people who aren't from around here still wonder why everyone's car has an electrical cord hanging out of the front... "Do you guys charge the battery at night or something?" :D
 

ubercam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Location
Hertfordshire
TDI
2007 Golf Match TDI 1.9L (BXE) M5
The local VW stealerships want $44 for a thermostat! Screw them! They can keep it for that price. I usually order online for a fraction of the price, but I can't find enough stuff that I honestly need this time around to make a $75 order for free shipping. I could fluff up my order with oil filters and stuff, but we already have enough of those to last a year at least hehe.

I asked my friend's dad, who owns and operates a VW repair shop, and he recommended MotorRad thermostats, which are what he uses.

BTW, I accidentally broke the retaining tabs when I was taking off the original thermostat, but I've had no problems in regards to holding it in place or anything. It's not like the thermostat has to be oriented in a certain direction to work or anything.
 

Lex4TDI4Life

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
Location
NorCal
TDI
2001 Golf-Ute TDI GLS 5spd Manual
might have been the angle I was parked on, but I could not get the theromostat to stat in place properly without mounting it to the flange first.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
A4 winter operation with no radiator

Like most TDIs mine is slow to heat up. I was operating at 168 degrees even after a 17 mile trip (avg speed 35 mpg or so) when the temperature was near 30 degrees F.

Until I got my ScanGauge, I thought everything was Ok. The idiot gauge reads a constant 194F/90C from 160F/71C to 212F/100C on my car. After I got my scanguage, I could see what was really going on.

So I replaced my thermostat - twice - with two 200 deg F (93C) thermostats. I did it twice because it did not seem any better after the first one was replaced. I was still near 170 F after my morning commute on 30 degree F mornings. The second 200F/90C thermostat showed nothing different. When driving at a steady 70 mph, and it was 50F, I noticed I was running at 200F. Then I cut on the cabin heat and noticed the coolant temperature start dropping. So I started investigating.

On my car, if I run the cabin heat at full capacity, I can drag the engine coolant temperature down to 170F, from its normal 200F, while driving at a steady 70 MPH.

I thought "I must still have a lot of thermostat leak by, probably due to the coolant pump differential pressure trying to pull open the thermostat, rather than pushing it shut as on many other engines." So I tried to check it out.

I clamped the upper radiator hose completely shut, using two long bolts and two hose clamps to squeeze them together. This shut off flow completely, as at 215F/102C the hose on the radiator side of the clamp was completely closed.

Another 70 mph run showed that I could easily keep my coolant temperature between 170F and 200F just by adjusting my cabin heat temperature setting and fan speed. Ambient temperature was 55F. Of course I had to have all the windows open to keep from roasting.

The next morning was about 28F, so with the radiator hose clamped, I drove to work. I kept the heat off until I hit 96C. I could only run the fan on slow or my coolant temperature would drop below 90C. I collected this data with my VCDS.

On a different morning, 27C, with radiator in normal service, I collected data again. I never did get to turn on my cabin heat, because I never reached my 90C target temperature.

The graph is attached below. As you can see on the NO Radiator run, I started with a temperature about 9C lower than the first run. I was not sharp enough to sit in the garage and idle until it reached the first run's starting temperature.

The car is a 2005 PD with no exhaust flow through the EGR cooler for this run. The EGR cooler still has coolant flow through it, and so probably loses a fair amount of heat to ambient, instead of picking up heat from the exhaust. The car is very fuel efficient, and usually averages over 52 mpg during this run.

You can see that during coasting operations temperature drops even with the radiator isolated and no heater in operation. This surprised me.

I did find that my car, with the radiator blocked off at an idle in 50F ambient conditions would heat up from 190F to 197F in less than 10 minutes.

What did I learn from this?
Why VW engineers made the idiot gauge the way they did. It masks most normal operational temperature variations completely.

I learned that I lost very little heat to the radiator when operating more than 8C below its setpoint.

I learned that the cabin heat load is a very large percentage of the heat produced, and that turning it on in the event of a thermostat failure would probably save my car.

I learned that unless I get a Frost Heater, even here is SC, I have to chose between heating me or heating my engine.

I learned that if you want to evaluate the thermostat or cooling system operation, you must use VCDS or a SCANGAUGE. Your idiot gauge is useless except to warn you of gross failure.

I learned that you must take into account cabin heat - the temperature dial and fan setting both, as even with the fan off, if you have the heat setting high the natural draft flow of air will impact your engine temperatures.

I learned that our TDIs really do not produce much heat.

Dan

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PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
hid3 said:
Today temperatures dropped slightly below 0 Celsius. My trip from work to home is 6 miles. I started my car and didn't notice anythin unusual. When my coolant temperature raised up to ~70 C, I stopped at traffic lights for ~2 minutes. Before I started to move again I noticed that my coolant temperature dropped from 70 C to about 55 C. "Ah, I'm already too tired" I thought. When I arrived to my garage, coolant temperature was slightly less than 90 C (one paddle to 90 C). I left my car to idle for 3 minutes and I saw that the coolant temp. gauge really dropped by almost 3 paddles! I shut down the engine, checked the coolant - the level was ok, reservoir cap was tight. Engine ran good, no unusual sounds.

What problem am I facing here? Does this sound like something serious? I've never seen coolant temperature dropping on short stops with engine running. Please help!
What you experience is normal for the TDI. Mine does it too. They use so little fuel, and so effeciently, idling the engine in cold weather will actually cool it off. Also, the engine is unthrottled, so you get a full charge of air in each cylinder on each intake stroke. At idle and low power demand, this rapidly cools the motor by pumping lots of cold air through it. At about 32 degrees F. out it takes a full 10 miles of driving to get mine up to operating temperature, and if its in traffic, it takes longer. Turn on the heat, then it takes longer still.

--Nate
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
DanG144 said, "You can see that during coasting operations temperature drops even with the radiator isolated and no heater in operation. This surprised me."

This is absolutely correct. Try the same test w/ the car in neutral, engine idling, coasting down the hill and you will see that the heat loss is less to none.

This brings up a good point to help keep your car warm in the winter. What you should do when traveling down hills/grades is to put the car in neutral and cost. (Only do this if you feel safe doing so and have a manual transmission). This lowers the engine rpm and causes much less cold air to be pumped throught the motor (preventing it from cooling down as much), allows the engine to burn a small amount of fuel (idle amount), thus keeping it a little warmer, and actually uses LESS fuel because the lack of engine drag allows the car to roll further than if in gear and the idle fuel used is less than the amount of fuel that would be used to overcome the engine drag.

--Nate
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Ubercam, I have been thru Canada to Alaska and back 7 times...... not in winter.

I did see many many vehicles with the electrical plug hanging out thru the grille.

Back in the '70s we did see some 21-24F below zero here. But, for the last 25 years or so, we have seldom seen the temp drop below 0F. There have been a lot of below 20F just this year.

Yep, I had a long discussion with a sales rep at Peoples Automotive (VW Dealer) in Grande Prairie in Alberta back in 1999 while waiting on some engine service on my '83 Vanagon. He told me about the rough winters there.

BTW, Peoples Automotive did good work at a fair price.....thumbs up to them!
 

Marco34

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Location
Lancashire, UK
TDI
1.9TDI 160
I've just read this thread with interest. I am from the UK and my A4s temp gauge started going weird 2 years ago. I replaced the black temp sender with a green one. The black temp sender (when the gauge worked) always read 90c. The green one did not fixed the temp gauge prob, but the temp always read below 90c. Midway between the middle notch and 90c.

Once I'd decided to fix the temp gauge (dry joints) I noticed the temp was only getting to the same midway point. Once I got VCDS I noticed the actual temps were 80-87c max. In the cold, -2 - 2c I've noticed a varying temp gauge reading. It moved quite a bit but VCDS only shows a variation of 84 max down to about 78-79 when going down hill with heater on 22c.

I also found different temps between the engine module and the instruments reading. Instruments reads about 6-8c less!!! No idea why!! I've only got the one temp sender as far as I can see.

From my experience the green sender seems to give the temp the varying temp reads, the black one always sat at 90c. I didn't have VAGCOM them to check it out. I've still got the black one and thought about putting it back in to see what happens.

In a nutshelll, the temp gauge readings meen nothing!!! I nearly fitted a new thermostat until I read the threads on TDi club. Great help. I don't think there is much to worry about. With so little heat output from a TDi the temp cannot remain constant. I've found mine will warm up from 78 - 82 in 3 mins when idling and some revs so the thermostat must be ok.

I've also read that the 90c reading is to stop joe avergage from panicing and seeing a big variant in temp.

Hope this adds some weight to the thread.

Cheers
Marco
 
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paokaras31

New member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Location
Greece
TDI
Q5 2.0 TDICR 170 CAHA
Hello everybody
For anyone with a tdi CR engine (mine is coded CAHA) here is my story. Car took too long to reach 90c and then would start to fall towards 70 whenever there was no load, downhill or even at stop lights!
I thought... open thermostat so I changed both thermostats : 03L 121 113 A main thermostat on block and 1KO 121 113 A in line. (in hose no 23 at th lower section in the image below. In the upper section of hose 23 is a non return valve part no. 1J0122351 which I did not change). Problem remained. After a lot of searching I found
out that I also have a second inline thermostat 1KO 121 113 A at the oil cooler which did not show on the diagram!!! I actually found this thermostat by visually inspecting all the hoses!!! After changing this one everything works as it should. It was also in the low part of hose no 23 going to the oil cooler.
https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+q5/aq5/2009-647/1/121-121025/
Hope this helps someone
 
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