I can't seem to find my leak. 238K Miles. I have replaced the tandem pump gasket and have replaced the valve cover gasket. In tightening the cover I used a straight screwdriver with a tip and did by hand. It seems to be coming closest to the passenger side firewall. Thanks for any help. I get about 3 quarter size circle when left over night after driving 20 miles during the day.
2006 Jetta Oil Leak
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oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Has the cam ever been replaced? If so, were the end cam caps resealed properly? Were non-OEM cam cap screws used? Those will not allow the cam caps to index properly, and the end cap will not be flush with the sealing surface of the tandem pump, and leak forever. I have had to redo about a dozen of these now from someone using these poor quality thinner bolts. 
JETaah
Vendor , w/Business number
The quality non-OEM bolt will allow to index properly. The installer just needs to be aware of the alignment...it's not the thickness of the bolts. I never have this problem and almost never use the OEM bolts.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Then how do you insure the cam cap stays in place? Because I assure you, the thinner bolts most certainly DO allow the cam caps to move away, which is why I have had to replace so many.... often 20-50k miles later... and whomever installed them (not me) has evidently no idea this is happening. Not pointing any fingers here, and to be honest, it took a few fixes for me to actually figure out what was actually happening.
Maybe certain non-OEM bolts are thinner than others? Again, not sure I have actually come across all instances of this, but I do know each and every time I have discovered a PD engine with a bad, chronic oil leak in this area, upon removal of that end cap I find non-OEM bolts, and installation of two new OEM bolts in that end cap fixes the leak.
And there never seemed (to me) to be any instance of the bolts (either the cam cap or the rocker shaft on top of it) being "loose" upon removal.
But hey, food for thought, just sharing what I have learned. Unlike many other engines' cap caps (including VAG gas engines that use bolts instead of studs for cam caps), there is no dowel set into one of each caps' bolt holes to align them. They are entirely dependent on the shaft of the bolt itself.
Maybe certain non-OEM bolts are thinner than others? Again, not sure I have actually come across all instances of this, but I do know each and every time I have discovered a PD engine with a bad, chronic oil leak in this area, upon removal of that end cap I find non-OEM bolts, and installation of two new OEM bolts in that end cap fixes the leak.
And there never seemed (to me) to be any instance of the bolts (either the cam cap or the rocker shaft on top of it) being "loose" upon removal.
But hey, food for thought, just sharing what I have learned. Unlike many other engines' cap caps (including VAG gas engines that use bolts instead of studs for cam caps), there is no dowel set into one of each caps' bolt holes to align them. They are entirely dependent on the shaft of the bolt itself.
JETaah
Vendor , w/Business number
From what I remember, the 1.8t does not dowel the cam blocks. Now granted it may not see the same forces that PD encounters but it relies upon the skill of the installer to align things.
The PDs cam block bolts rely on clamping pressure not only from the small opposing bolts but also from the rocker bolts. You can still nudge the blocks around a bit even with the OEM bolts ... they are not a press fit. I always have had to make sure that the end cam block are flush with the end faces of the head. The OEMs ensure that the block are positioned so that the cam lobes don’t run into them and the rocker will be somewhat centered with injectors so as to keep from offsetting the load upon them. You must be aware with the non OEM as to where things belong.
The PDs cam block bolts rely on clamping pressure not only from the small opposing bolts but also from the rocker bolts. You can still nudge the blocks around a bit even with the OEM bolts ... they are not a press fit. I always have had to make sure that the end cam block are flush with the end faces of the head. The OEMs ensure that the block are positioned so that the cam lobes don’t run into them and the rocker will be somewhat centered with injectors so as to keep from offsetting the load upon them. You must be aware with the non OEM as to where things belong.
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oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
The belt driven 1.8t engines (both early and late) most certainly do. They use the same one, actually (058 prefix part number). Little plastic thing, they call it a sleeve. All the 5v V6s and V8s are the same. I've had lots and lots of those apart, LOL.
So what I think might be happening is, the people who sell the non-OEM skinny bolts are not actually TELLING the installers that it is incumbent on them to be certain to properly align the end cap to the cylinder head edge so that the tandem pump seals properly. However, as I have stated, I have found the problem of bad oil leaks to manifest much later... so I concluded that *somehow* the caps must move, because otherwise the misaligned end cap you'd think would allow a bad oil leak right away. And in most cases, well all of them actually, the engine was apart some time ago and the oil leak was a recent development.
You are correct, the OEM bolt is not a snug fit, but certainly tighter than the aftermarket ones I have seen. You can actually SEE the difference with the naked eye, no need for a micrometer or anything. It is pretty substantial.
So what I think might be happening is, the people who sell the non-OEM skinny bolts are not actually TELLING the installers that it is incumbent on them to be certain to properly align the end cap to the cylinder head edge so that the tandem pump seals properly. However, as I have stated, I have found the problem of bad oil leaks to manifest much later... so I concluded that *somehow* the caps must move, because otherwise the misaligned end cap you'd think would allow a bad oil leak right away. And in most cases, well all of them actually, the engine was apart some time ago and the oil leak was a recent development.
You are correct, the OEM bolt is not a snug fit, but certainly tighter than the aftermarket ones I have seen. You can actually SEE the difference with the naked eye, no need for a micrometer or anything. It is pretty substantial.
JETaah
Vendor , w/Business number
It is if you retorqued them to the original spec with the quarter turns.
If so then they were likely stretched past where they should be and may be well over-stressed.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
The first thing I would say to Studio, NEVER EVER! reuse the cam cap bolts for a PD. Even more so, do not reuse the injector hold down bolts. Both of these bolts have a penchant for snapping off flush with the block. The bolts are not cheap and once the TTY bolts are removed, they cannot be reused. That is the reason I introduced the idea of reusable bolts. Obviously, I'm not the only one using them.
Brian and Marty, I appreciate both of you and your talents. That said, and not with intent to take sides, I have probably been the leader in promoting the non-TTY bolts over the years. To date, I would estimate we have sold in the neighborhood of 50,000 pieces.
Now, about the issue with 'skinny bolts'. First, I have currently sold in excess of 4200 cam kits, with every single one of the kits using a non-torque to yield bolt. Also, keep in mind, the ONLY cap that could conceivably 'drift' and cause a oil leak is at the #5 cap, which we have shown, over and over, 4 things you have to pay attention to.
1. The tandem pump gasket is partially exposed when using our cam removal technique, which the point of doing this procedure is to leave the tandem pump in place, rotate the cam CLOCKWISE from TDC after removing the timing belt and turning the crankshaft COUNTER- CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn. So, the pistons are out of the way and the cam is turned so it can be slipped through the tandem pump driver, vertically. The reason we even do this is to simplify restart. Since the fuel system is not opened, it remains primed and starts up after cam install just like the last time you turned it off.
2. When reinstalling the cam caps, we clean the #5 cam cap and area squeaky clean. The #2 and #4 caps are drawn down to bring the cam into place, then the #1, 3 and 5 cap are installed. There can be an alignment issue with the caps. We actually have found using a non-marring plastic tear drop hammer aides in alignment of the cam bearings. We set 60 inch lbs on the cam cap bolts and BEAT on the cap to force the bearings to align. Subsequent, 120 in lb and 144 in lbs (12 ft lbs) torque and spinning the cam to show it is running freely between each torque setting pays dividends.
3. The #5 bearing's hemisphere that goes against the portion of the tandem pump gasket is cleaned, as is the entire area where the two parts join. I use either Reinz or Dirko high temp RTV to coat under the cam cap and on the hemisphere of the cap that contacts the tandem pump seal. When placing the cap, pull the cap away from the tandem pump seal, set it into place, then push the bearing cap against the tandem pump seal. There should be some excess RTV that comes out of the perimeter of the cap as it contacts the tandem pump seal. Tighten down the two cam cap screws. Personally, I don't care if you prefer to use the OEM screws or the ones I've used for over 10 years, with very few issues. Suit yourself. I'm not wasting my money on them.
4. If you look at the two end caps, there is a slot milled into the bottom of the cap. There is a reason for that slot. Although getting a VW engineer to actually TELL you is like pulling teeth, it is an oil return slot. You should be careful when coating the bottom of the two end caps that you do not get any RTV into the milled slot. Otherwise, oil that would escape through that slot will find another way out. Not necessarily a good way, either. I might also note, when applying sealant to the underside of the two end cam caps, my main concern what to stop any weeping of oil that might occur between the cam cap and the cylinder head itself. By applying sealant under the #5 cap, I think by default, the cap will not have much opportunity to move, as it is glued in place.
That is what I've been doing for years on the PD motors. Can I say, PERFECT? Heck, NO! I could think of lots of ways to make a better sealing cam and valve cover. And that is my other concern, which has nothing to do with the cam caps. It's the valve cover.
Why does VW take something like the ALH aluminum valve cover, which seals reasonably well (although I really think it's seal setup is terrible...) and trade if for this plastic PD thing? Cost. Nothing but the price of the product. Same answer for billet cam shafts and cracked connecting rods. (those who disagree, that's for another day...)They are cheaper to make. But along with cheap often comes compromise. Unfortunately, the plastic is subject to heat warp. I don't really trust the PD plastic valve covers to lay absolutely flat and the contact point from the surface of the head where it contacts the two end cam caps is weak.
I'm sure between Marty, Brian and myself, we have seen not only valve covers with the screws tightened to stripped, but we have also seen the screws so loose, they don't require any torque to remove. There is a steel barrel inside the screws where that bushing is designed to keep the proper distance of the seating of the valve cover. So, you can't put more torque on to make it tighter, but you can warp the cover...and the cover also warps from heat. It will bridge between screws or warp at the caps. The right angle going from the head to the edge of the cam cap is hard to make seal. We add a bit of RTV, and I might note, if you get sloppy with that, once again, the milled slot in the bottom of the end cam caps can be plugged, causing the return oil to have to find some other way out.
So, first, we make sure the valve cover is flat. The valve cover seal is good material, but I think sometimes, the valve cover's slot for the gasket is too deep. We have seen valve covers whose warp will bridge between the hold down screws. And then, if we find it's not leaking all that bad, I've got better things to do than try to make something 'not quite right', perfect. Lots of them leaked before I got there... some of them are leaking after I leave. VW's and Harley's; They like to mark their spot.
So, after all the times and troubles, I can honestly say, the first two times I ever tried to install the #5 cap, it leaked. I had to remove the tandem pump and replace the gasket, because it was easier, NOT because the end of the cap wasn't aligned with the end of the head. But once you get the hang of installing the #5 bearing cap properly with sealant, you can put that problem in the rear view mirror.
Brian and Marty, I appreciate both of you and your talents. That said, and not with intent to take sides, I have probably been the leader in promoting the non-TTY bolts over the years. To date, I would estimate we have sold in the neighborhood of 50,000 pieces.
Now, about the issue with 'skinny bolts'. First, I have currently sold in excess of 4200 cam kits, with every single one of the kits using a non-torque to yield bolt. Also, keep in mind, the ONLY cap that could conceivably 'drift' and cause a oil leak is at the #5 cap, which we have shown, over and over, 4 things you have to pay attention to.
1. The tandem pump gasket is partially exposed when using our cam removal technique, which the point of doing this procedure is to leave the tandem pump in place, rotate the cam CLOCKWISE from TDC after removing the timing belt and turning the crankshaft COUNTER- CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn. So, the pistons are out of the way and the cam is turned so it can be slipped through the tandem pump driver, vertically. The reason we even do this is to simplify restart. Since the fuel system is not opened, it remains primed and starts up after cam install just like the last time you turned it off.
2. When reinstalling the cam caps, we clean the #5 cam cap and area squeaky clean. The #2 and #4 caps are drawn down to bring the cam into place, then the #1, 3 and 5 cap are installed. There can be an alignment issue with the caps. We actually have found using a non-marring plastic tear drop hammer aides in alignment of the cam bearings. We set 60 inch lbs on the cam cap bolts and BEAT on the cap to force the bearings to align. Subsequent, 120 in lb and 144 in lbs (12 ft lbs) torque and spinning the cam to show it is running freely between each torque setting pays dividends.
3. The #5 bearing's hemisphere that goes against the portion of the tandem pump gasket is cleaned, as is the entire area where the two parts join. I use either Reinz or Dirko high temp RTV to coat under the cam cap and on the hemisphere of the cap that contacts the tandem pump seal. When placing the cap, pull the cap away from the tandem pump seal, set it into place, then push the bearing cap against the tandem pump seal. There should be some excess RTV that comes out of the perimeter of the cap as it contacts the tandem pump seal. Tighten down the two cam cap screws. Personally, I don't care if you prefer to use the OEM screws or the ones I've used for over 10 years, with very few issues. Suit yourself. I'm not wasting my money on them.
4. If you look at the two end caps, there is a slot milled into the bottom of the cap. There is a reason for that slot. Although getting a VW engineer to actually TELL you is like pulling teeth, it is an oil return slot. You should be careful when coating the bottom of the two end caps that you do not get any RTV into the milled slot. Otherwise, oil that would escape through that slot will find another way out. Not necessarily a good way, either. I might also note, when applying sealant to the underside of the two end cam caps, my main concern what to stop any weeping of oil that might occur between the cam cap and the cylinder head itself. By applying sealant under the #5 cap, I think by default, the cap will not have much opportunity to move, as it is glued in place.
That is what I've been doing for years on the PD motors. Can I say, PERFECT? Heck, NO! I could think of lots of ways to make a better sealing cam and valve cover. And that is my other concern, which has nothing to do with the cam caps. It's the valve cover.
Why does VW take something like the ALH aluminum valve cover, which seals reasonably well (although I really think it's seal setup is terrible...) and trade if for this plastic PD thing? Cost. Nothing but the price of the product. Same answer for billet cam shafts and cracked connecting rods. (those who disagree, that's for another day...)They are cheaper to make. But along with cheap often comes compromise. Unfortunately, the plastic is subject to heat warp. I don't really trust the PD plastic valve covers to lay absolutely flat and the contact point from the surface of the head where it contacts the two end cam caps is weak.
I'm sure between Marty, Brian and myself, we have seen not only valve covers with the screws tightened to stripped, but we have also seen the screws so loose, they don't require any torque to remove. There is a steel barrel inside the screws where that bushing is designed to keep the proper distance of the seating of the valve cover. So, you can't put more torque on to make it tighter, but you can warp the cover...and the cover also warps from heat. It will bridge between screws or warp at the caps. The right angle going from the head to the edge of the cam cap is hard to make seal. We add a bit of RTV, and I might note, if you get sloppy with that, once again, the milled slot in the bottom of the end cam caps can be plugged, causing the return oil to have to find some other way out.
So, first, we make sure the valve cover is flat. The valve cover seal is good material, but I think sometimes, the valve cover's slot for the gasket is too deep. We have seen valve covers whose warp will bridge between the hold down screws. And then, if we find it's not leaking all that bad, I've got better things to do than try to make something 'not quite right', perfect. Lots of them leaked before I got there... some of them are leaking after I leave. VW's and Harley's; They like to mark their spot.
So, after all the times and troubles, I can honestly say, the first two times I ever tried to install the #5 cap, it leaked. I had to remove the tandem pump and replace the gasket, because it was easier, NOT because the end of the cap wasn't aligned with the end of the head. But once you get the hang of installing the #5 bearing cap properly with sealant, you can put that problem in the rear view mirror.
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AndyBees
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Location
- Southeast Kentucky
- TDI
- Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Well, this old man has done one BRM cam replacement (last summer, if I remember correctly...LOL) ........... Wow! As far as I know, the guy is satisfied. He called yesterday about his daughter's NB with a coolant leak (heater hose connections on the firewall {o-ring]). Anyway no mention of his 06 Jetta with the BRM.
Franko6, I always like to read your posts ... (Oilhammer's too)
Franko6, I always like to read your posts ... (Oilhammer's too)
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