Timing belt replacement - are new bolts a must?

I was going to change my timing belt and water pump tomorrow on my '03 Jetta TDI. I watched a video on YouTube where the guy mentioned that you must replace some bolts. I bought a Gates timing belt kit and there was nothing said about replacing bolts. Can you guys shed some more light on this? And what bolts are the ones they're talking about? Also, my car has 178k miles and I believe this will be the second time it's been changed.

http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_31_41&products_id=30

The bolts in question are torque-to-yield (TTY) and must be replaced each use. Lots of info here on this site. Do a bit of searching.

The bigger question is do you own or have access to VAG-COM and the proper tools to do the job right?

coolvdub said:

The bigger question is do you own or have access to VAG-COM and the proper tools to do the job right?

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Yes ;-)

Not just the WP, TB and motor mount bolts. The tensioner is an absolute must and the big idler/roller and two smaller ones. Bolt for the big roller also.
Read the TB change article.
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf
Make sure you have everything part and tool wise.
I don't know what Gates TB kit you got, or where, but if it was a good complete kit put together by a TDI expert, it would have been all inclusive. I would think I would examine each part and check its source and quality. Without knowing the brand(s) and quality lets just say there is a lot of junk being sold out there. The belt itself is usually not the fail item.

I don't know where you purchased your belt, but if you only bought a belt send it back and order a proper kit like this.
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=449
If you take a look at the picture you will see the belt along with the bolts, water pump and tenisioner, all of which need replacing.

I will have to give my vote for IDPARTS.com . I keep a lot of parts on hand at my shop but I drive to IDPARTS.com some times 4 times a day lately, just 9 miles away.
Any one that picks up the phone there can walk you though and job you may take on.
Yes change the bolts if you cant send the belt back just look at there pic or just call and add what is need to to it right the first time.
Bob Mann

He stated he bought a Gates belt "kit", but didn't list what came in the kit. Apparently a rather short list w/o TTY bolts, etc.

I own a NAPA auto parts store so I bought it from myself haha. The kit comes with all the rollers and the new tensioner. I also have a new water pump. I will call the dealer and buy the bolts. The belt that IDparts sells in their kit is the same one I have. I would assume that their rollers and tensioner is too. All these guys are doing is adding to a "kit" that all auto parts stores sell. I believe the one that diesel geek sells is essentially the same as well. I wanted to do the belt this weekend because I borrowed all the tools from a friend of mine who owns a shop. He has a kit that holds the camshaft, pins the I/P and a few other things. I also have his VCDS.

Anyway, is there a complete list somewhere that will tell what bolts I need to get from the dealer? Thanks again!

See http://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/the-tale-of-two-bolts-or-life-lessons.27276/

Y.

MxChase good luck with your timing belt. We here as group and as vendors do are best to steer those that seek knowledge on TDIs down the right path!

Dos not NAPA have a tech line for you?
Bob Mann

CNGVW said:

MxChase good luck with your timing belt. We here as group and as vendors do are best to steer those that seek knowledge on TDIs down the right path!

Dos not NAPA have a tech line for you?
Bob Mann

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Thanks Bob. I agree that most of the members on this forum are quite knowledgeable and do their best to help. That is why come here for answers to my questions. Napa does have tech lines. I was going to call the Gates tech line but I honestly doubt they would know the answer to this question.

ymz said:

See http://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/the-tale-of-two-bolts-or-life-lessons.27276/

Y.

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Wow.. That's crazy. I just replaced my clutch and reused my motor mount bolts on that side. I wonder if I should be replacing those!?!?!?

MxChase said:

Wow.. That's crazy. I just replaced my clutch and reused my motor mount bolts on that side. I wonder if I should be replacing those!?!?!?

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Yes. My parents TDI was serviced at the dealer and they did not change the motor mount belts and the engine fell out of the car one day on them.

MxChase said:

Wow.. That's crazy. I just replaced my clutch and reused my motor mount bolts on that side. I wonder if I should be replacing those!?!?!?

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Stop wondering and go buy them.

idparts.com has the kit you need with those bolts. Probably cheaper than the dealer. They have sets of TTY bolts for other areas of you car too if you need them. Check them out.

MxChase said:

Wow.. That's crazy. I just replaced my clutch and reused my motor mount bolts on that side. I wonder if I should be replacing those!?!?!?

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Yes, absolutely those must be replaced. They are one time use and can fail if reused, which as another poster mentioned, failure will result in your transmission dropping out of the car.

Funny thing about those replace every time bolts. If you call the dealer they don't have them in stock, be in couple days. So if you wanted a timing belt job done at dealer you'd have to leave the car for 3 days?

dieselherb1 said:

Funny thing about those replace every time bolts. If you call the dealer they don't have them in stock, be in couple days. So if you wanted a timing belt job done at dealer you'd have to leave the car for 3 days?

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You are right dieselherb I worked for a Audi dear for many years that most of the time had the bolts and hardware that was needed.

But the VW dealership I worked never had the bolts as a flat rate tech you had to use what you had or starve . It all was came down to cost and profit.
Bob Mann

CNGVW said:

You are right dieselherb I worked for a Audi dear for many years that most of the time had the bolts and hardware that was needed.

But the VW dealership I worked never had the bolts as a flat rate tech you had to use what you had or starve . It all was came down to cost and profit.
Bob Mann

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Which is really the basis for "NEVER take your TDI to the dealer for a TB job". Not only will it cost you excessive $$ but many don't do the job right. It's been a while but there have been many reports of dealer TB jobs where bolts, tensioners, pulleys, water pumps, etc. were not replaced... or at the very least, not documented as such. Even evidence of mark-n-pray. With the correct equipment and knowledge, a TB job is not that daunting but it's one of those jobs that's error intolerant. If you're taking it on yourself, do your research first. I'm sort of surprised the OP was unaware of the TTY bolts involved. Anyone spending any time on this site (or owns a Bentley manual) should have crossed paths with this fact.

Before I did my own TB, I got a quote from a dealer. The service rep showed my an invoice for a B5, but the parts list did not show any bolt replacement. The charge was $1500.

threeshot223 said:

Yes, absolutely those must be replaced. They are one time use and can fail if reused, which as another poster mentioned, failure will result in your transmission dropping out of the car.

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Damn straight! The common experience has been that those bolts fail about 10,000 miles after the TB job, when the engine/transmission will fall out the bottom of the engine bay, sometimes hanging only by resting on suspension parts, sometimes by landing on the pavement. Either way, not something you want to have happen to YOUR car, especially if it happens as you are at speed on the freeway.

And yes, it happened to me. First time I got the belt changed, the dealer assured me when I called to set up the appointment, that they would replace the mount bolts. When I picked up the car, there was no mention of bolts on the invoice, so I asked about it and was assured that their shop foreman had been to training on the topic and was certain that new bolts were not required. I vowed to buy the bolts and replace them myself, but got busy and you know the rest. When the engine fell out of my car at 10,000 miles and got towed to the dealer, they had to redo the entire TB job because of the damage (they warrantied their work for 12,000 miles, so the job was on their dime).

So, yes, absolutely, new mount bolts, and don't argue with me! Just replace the damn bolts. Period. Job ain't done 'till you put in new bolts.

I don't have an A4,but know that the bolts need to be changed EACH time the TB is done. Numerous stories on here where owner took car somewhere(mostly dealer) to have TB done only to have the mount bolts snap and engine drop shortly thereafter. Best thing for OP to do,being he owns a NAPA,is to get the bolt part#'s so he gets the right ones. He could also contact Bora parts(aka Cascade German Parts,IIRC) -he also ships quick and is on the same coast as the OP is.....

Thanks guys. I called the dealer today and had them order all the TTY bolts. I don't want to end up having a problem. It cost me around $25 to get all that I'll need. Its well worth the money to know I'm not going to have any problems..

It would be interesting to know two things about those who had a bad experience after the TTY bolts were re-used and then they broke.

1. What pound were they torqued to.
2. What was the driving habit of the car owner.

I mistakenly re-used the OE bolts on the TB side of my 2000 Jetta ........ they lasted to 167 miles with no issue.

Since, I've always replaced them.

would it not be possible to replace the bolts with some that are not torque to yield ,then if they needed removing again at some point they wouldn't need replacing.

In this particular case, the 10mm (16mm head) bolts that hold the engine/transmission mounts to the chassis are Torque-to-Yield, but the 12mm (18mm head) bolts holding the lower mounts ("bracket") to the engine mounts are not. I believe those are supposed to be replaced on account of the anti-corrosion coating that VW considers important in this application.

Yuri

Something that amazes me is that the vendors push all of the bolts for the timing belt, but when it's time for a clutch, are the rear TTY bolts included, or are they available as an additional purchase? It would seem that since they include the bolt kit with the timing belt kit, they should be including it with the clutch kit as well.

That being said, Mr. NAPA, take a good look at the aluminum mount that the TTY bolts thread into. Those threads are notorious for pulling out. Many folks use Timeserts or at least Helicoils in those holes as part of the timing belt service.

ymz, you may be correct, but it would seem to me that the smaller bolts going through motor mount bracket into the block would have the most stress on them.

Looking at my Bentley, those MM Bracket bolts are not labeled to be replaced... the others are, as well as the bolts that hold the dog-bone in place on the bottom of the engine ....... I've never replaced those.

AndyBees said:

Looking at my Bentley, those MM Bracket bolts are not labeled to be replaced... the others are, as well as the bolts that hold the dog-bone in place on the bottom of the engine ....... I've never replaced those.

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Actually, the dogbone mount bolt spec was changed (quite a while ago) to reflect that those need not be changed every time... As for the corrosion aspect... see my other thread about the condition I found the bolt in the transmission mount... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=430734

Yuri

I bet most all tinkerers can ID a Metric vs. Inch bolt (in almost all cases) just by looking at the head alone and reading the markings.

Is their an industry standard marking or config for identifying TTY bolts?