Honda Common Rail TDI

Honda recently introduced a 2.2Liter Common Rail TDI for the European market only . Given the superior quality, durability, and reliability of Honda Vehicles to their German counter-parts,(If you doubt my statement on the quality issue, just check consumer reports and see who consistently shows up #1....it's not any German manufacturer!) I would love to see a Honda TDI made availabe in the USA. While I love my 99 Jetta TDI as it turns the 103,000 mile mark, the electrical problems, inferior paint job, and other (be it small) quality issues, annoy me to death and leave me longing for the over-all superior quality of a Honda or Toyota. Does any one hear what I'm saying? And has anyone heard any romours of Honda, Nissan, or toyota introducing a TDI for the US market?

Sincerely,

Dieselmeister

Honda has used an outsourced diesel in some Euro-spec cars for years (I think Peugot). Hondas are not without their issues...I work on cars for a living, and while they are great cars, they are by no means perfect, and I really do not see many Hondas lasting hundreds of thousands of miles like I have seen countless German cars do. Plus, they rust out here in the Midwest quite quickly, Hondas have had main relay problems for years, have drive-axle problems (many do not make it past 80k miles), water pumps sometimes fail, the 2.2L Accord engines spit the oil seals right out of the front balance shaft, so much so that Honda had to come up with a retainer to keep them in. They have chronic EGR tube clogging problems, many burn mass quantities of oil, I have replaced a few window regulators in them, brake rotor warpage is very common, Accord auto-trans gear selector cables often sieze, some Accord auto-transmissions were garbage (early '90s), the CRVs have rear-differential problems (4WD models only), Civics blow head gaskets quite easily, almost every 3.2L Legend V6 has had head gaskets replaced, sometimes a few times, many distributors have disintegrated, failed ignitors were very common on Civics, the ball-joints in the control arms often sieze and break off without warning...if you don't believe ME, then ask any Honda specialist! They are good cars, but not as flawless as some may think. My 1991 Jetta, even after 300k miles, looks better, runs better, and has had far fewer things break than my sister's '90 Civic has in only 130k miles...and her car is full of holes! And now, Honda decided they would use Delco (GM) alternators on their V6 Accords so if you have one of those, keep a tow truck's number on hand...

other (be it small) quality issues, annoy me to death and leave me longing for the over-all superior quality of a Honda or Toyota.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, bull****. That bendy jap**** runs just fine for 70k, the it goes to hell. A pain in the ass to fix, tinny, handle like a rowboat, pure crap. My last Toyota hacked up starters like a cat tosses hairballs, clutch went, FI impossible to fix, brakes warped,....

RGTI... My '86 Accord was the most troublefree vehicle I ever owned. I also got exceptional duty from an '85 Tercel 4x4 wagon and a '91 Toyota Pickup...

My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.

PS My Accord looked brand new at 130K. All I had replaced were tires, plugs and lubricants and filters.

Does any one hear what I'm saying?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly have NO @*!$*** idea what you are saying.

oilhammer
Member # 7426 posted December 29, 2002 18:52
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Honda has used an outsourced diesel in some Euro-spec cars for years (I think Peugot). Hondas are not without their issues...I work on cars for a living, and while they are great cars, they are by no means perfect, and I really do not see many Hondas lasting hundreds of thousands of miles like I have seen countless German cars do. Plus, they rust out here in the Midwest quite quickly, Hondas have had main relay problems for years, have drive-axle problems (many do not make it past 80k miles), water pumps sometimes fail, the 2.2L Accord engines spit the oil seals right out of the front balance shaft, so much so that Honda had to come up with a retainer to keep them in. They have chronic EGR tube clogging problems, many burn mass quantities of oil, I have replaced a few window regulators in them, brake rotor warpage is very common, Accord auto-trans gear selector cables often sieze, some Accord auto-transmissions were garbage (early '90s), the CRVs have rear-differential problems (4WD models only), Civics blow head gaskets quite easily, almost every 3.2L Legend V6 has had head gaskets replaced, sometimes a few times, many distributors have disintegrated, failed ignitors were very common on Civics, the ball-joints in the control arms often sieze and break off without warning...if you don't believe ME, then ask any Honda specialist! They are good cars, but not as flawless as some may think. My 1991 Jetta, even after 300k miles, looks better, runs better, and has had far fewer things break than my sister's '90 Civic has in only 130k miles...and her car is full of holes! And now, Honda decided they would use Delco (GM) alternators on their V6 Accords so if you have one of those, keep a tow truck's number on hand...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the Honda's defense, many of these problems could just be due to the typical Honda owner(hah!)

My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This obviously cannot be true. NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.

I aint saying Japanese cars arent good. There have been several in my family, with no complaints. My mother drives a beat up late 70's Toyota pickup with plenty of miles on it and it still runs well.

Then again, she also owns an old 1980 Rabbit deisel that she DOES NOT MAINTAIN, nor has she very well for its life. The thing still runs, and she wont let it die, despite my admonishments.

dieselmeister, there's enough angry red faces in your post to indicate that you have issue with other things in life beside the car.

If the car were the real problem, you could throw it away and buy a new one. What's your real concern?

To speak from my own personal experience...I've had two Hondas a 1991 Accord (sold after 160K) and a 1996 Civic (sold after 150K). Both were fine cars except for the auto tranny. At about 130-140K I experienced funky shifting problems in both cars and had to replace the ECU and throttle body in the Civic at 120K.

My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh BULL! My 1996 Civic rattled from the day it was born till the day I sold it. Both the Civic and the Accord had more motor and road-tire noise than the 03 Golf I am currently driving.

No auto maker makes a perfect car (anymore). I haven't had my Golf long enough to compare it to the Hondas on overall reliability.

Regarding your original question...the only problem I see is that Honda will be putting an engine designed to go 300+K into a car designed to last 180-200K.

NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, my '84 Volvo TD didn't have any rattles when I sold it last year. But, by then, everything that COULD rattle had fallen off!

My experience of driving vehicles into the ground has been that Japanese cars are very good for the first approximately 200,000 km or 6 years, whichever comes first. After 200,000 km, mechanical maintenance costs will start going up, and some of 'em become oil burners. After around 6 years, corrosion will start eating away at the bodyshell (I live in the salt belt!). This will reduce its resale value FAST and at the same time, make it not worthwhile to do the more expensive repairs that will likely be required around this time. That's when I stop doing all but required maintenance, and drive it until the expected cost of keeping it on the road for another year exceeds what the car is worth.

'78 Civic, started running crappy around 5 years and 130,000 km; flattened at 12 years and 180,000 km.

'84 Toyota pickup; indestructible 22R 4 cylinder engine and gearbox, but biodegradable box made it not worth fixing clutch, fuel lines, automatic choke, rear brakes, and driveshaft center U-joint - sold at 10 years and 278,000 km.

'91 Toyota van; MAF sensor crapped out at 200,000 km (and you thought a VW MAF was expensive!!!), O2 sensor crapped around 180,000 km and I never fixed it because it was really expensive and made no difference to how it ran. Flex pipe broke at some point and required replacement along with the catalyst that was part of the same piece - $700 for the part. At around the 6 year mark, rust was making its presence felt. A/C beyond repair, $1500 exhaust manifold about to rot through, ball joints were shot, and it wasn't gonna pass Drive Clean, AND I hated driving it!!, so I traded it in when it was 9 years old and 288,000 km.

The VW is now at 290,000 km and 7 years, and shows no sign of major rust problems. I've had some grief with rear wheel bearings lately, and I know the A/C is gonna need work come springtime, but it is still running very well and is easily worth repairing. When a car gets old you are going to have to fix stuff. I'm still OK with this one, though.

Go Faster,

With regards to rust, you are exactly right. When I moved from Sacramento to Rochester, NY back in 1991, I was SHOCKED to see the rust on Accords of the same generation as the one I had owned. They ALL did it.

Note: My wife's A2 Jetta was developing rust too. It also needed new CV joints at 110K miles and had the legendary leaky heater core problem(replaced by VWOA).

I was shocked to see how badly the old RWD Volvos used to rust there as well.

I have heard (but don't know since I don't live there anymore) that the newer Hondas don't rust anymore due to double galvanized sheetmetal.

It will be interesting to see how the A4 holds together over the years. So far, I haven't had any MAF, window regulator or relay problems. Just rattles (lots of 'em) and creaky doors.

At the rate I'm going, it's going to take 10 years or so to get to 200K. By then, it will be my son's first car (I hope).

I've found that most people's impression of their own car comes with little regard to actual performance or dependability. In other words, if you want to love your car, you will. If you want to hate it, you will.

My GF's 1999 Civic definitely has it's problems. At 20k miles, the paint started cracking. The dealership and Honda of America both say that's because of acid rain. The car is washed bi-weekly and waxed bi-monthly. Also, it needs spark plugs every 20-25k miles. I'm guessing it's just the plugs that Honda uses, but the dealership even removed the Bosch plugs I installed and put Honda ones back in. Didn't solve the mysterious problem, though. It suffers from infrequent lokk of power. Also it about as fun to drive as a shopping cart. It's bigger than my Golf, yet weighs 400lb less. Window seals fail, lots of wind noise. Not a bad car, just not as perfect as most Honda owners will have you believe.

Another story: A good friend of mine bought a 1990 Mercedes 240D when he turned 16. not a quick car, but comfy and reliable. Good looking, too. A few years later he bought a used Celica. It was fun to drive and sportier, but has lots of problems. He sold it and started driving the Benz again. A few years later be bought an Accord. He loved the Accord, even though it left him stranded many times. Starter, alternator, and other more mysterious problems. Got rid of it, drove the Benz. Recently, he bought a brand-new Toyota Tacoma 4x4. Last time he came over to my place, he was driving the Benz. The Tacoma was in the shop. I can't remember what the problem was. Well, he's 27 years old now. The Benz has had absolute minimal service. It has been the most reliable car he's owned. Heck, he's been driving it on and off for 11 years! And he absolutely hates it.

Back to the topic: Yes, I'd love to see lots of different brands of modern diesel cars in the USA. Honda, bring it on! Mercedes, bring 'em back! VW, keep it up! We clearly need more choices. And the general public needs to be more aware of the advantages of diesel engines. And we need to be using more Biodiesel. Nuff said.

Originally posted by RogueTDI:

This obviously cannot be true. NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

That blanket statement has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard!

And you say that you are an engineer?




[ January 05, 2003, 14:16: Message edited by: WVWSP61 ]

I have no complaints about the build quality or the reliability of my Golf. I can't knock any Japanese cars for poor quality. From my own experience driving Hondas, Camry's,etc. is that they are not FUN to drive. They do everything quite nicely but BORING to drive. They have no soul.

My $.02.

double post!

[ January 06, 2003, 21:16: Message edited by: gleep86 ]

"Both the Civic and the Accord had more motor and road-tire noise than the 03 Golf I am currently driving" NussWag

Road-tire noise, certainly yes, but not engine noise. I drove a 1995 H*nd@ Civic Vx for a couple years. It seemed to have IMPRESSIVELY little engine noise, even at idle, when there was no road-tire noise to drown out the engine noise. All the more impressive when you consider that this particular Civic model has little or no sound-proofing material. Road-tire noise was even louder than in my 1982 diesel Rabbit.
By contrast, my 2000 Golf GLS-TDI seems to have very much less road-tire noise; so much less that I can hear the engine again.

My other car, which I let my aunt drive for her daily beater, is a 1989 Plymouth Colt Vista 2WD wagon that my parents bought new in early 1989 as a replacement for our much loved but trouble prone 1981 Volvo 240 coupe. It was parked for a while at my mothers home back in New Mexico and she sold it to me for a $1 when I moved from NM to Iowa after selling her my Pontiac Grand Prix. Aside from the normal routine maintenance, we had to replace the fuel pump in 1990 (under warranty), CV joints in 1993, a clutch in 1996, tightening of the transmission linkage in 1999 (kept popping out of 5th gear) and a clutch slave cylinder in 2001, it's been relatively trouble free all these years. It uses some oil, which is not uncommon for a Mitsubishi powered vehicle (look at all those V6 Chrysler mini's blowing blue smoke). It blows some blue smoke at start up, which some have told me is probably the cylinder head, most likely the valve guides, which tend to go rotten in Mitsubishi cars. Cruise still works, AC still works and still shifts pretty smoothly. It's loud as hell at speed but it'll do 80 mph no problem all day. For a while it started running like crap, so I parked it. My aunt had it tuned up with new plugs (mechanic said 2 cylinders weren't firing and it runs great now. It's got about 115k on it and I think it could be good for another 115k, if the rust doesn't get her first.

[ January 12, 2003, 11:16: Message edited by: PackRat ]

I test drove Honda Civic TDI before I bought Skoda Octavia TDI (A4 VW Jetta). My previous car was a Honda Civic 1.6 ESI, and I was happy with it

The Honda engine will certainly appeal to people who drive gassers and have no idea about how to drive diesel. It revs high, the torque is, well, average for a diesel, and it is not the best car in the fuel consumption department. I found that 5 door Civic was sluggish compared to Octavia/Jetta.

I might go back to Honda at some point in future, but only when they understand that diesels are just different from petrol engines and that's good. And that people who are 6ft5in also have the right to drive their cars comfortably .

My pre-Tdi car was a '92 honda Prelude Si.

It had 190,000 miles on it when I sold it to a local honda-freak kid who proceeded to blow the engine.

Mickey that dastardly fellow who convinced me to get a VW, could not believe it had that many miles. It looked new inside and out.

Anyway, the car was trouble free for about 60k miles. This is a car that ALWAYS gets the best possible reliability ratings from COnsumer Reports. And it wasn't bad for the first 60k.

Then:

60k miles: a spark plug BLEW OUT from oil leaking out of the valve cover around the spark plug wells. It seems the dealer failed to replace the rubber grommets when they set the valve clearances at 60k maintenance. (stupid service departments are not limited to VW) Had to chase with a tap to clean up the threads.

65K miles: happily humming along the Interstate in Wisconsin 85 mph (4200 rpm) and get the oil idiot light comes on briefly. next exit is 1/4 mile away, light comes on during turn, stays on. I add 3 1/2 quarts, and there is light smoke from burnt oil coming out of the dipstick and filler hole.

This started a 5 year and 130,000 mile oddysey of trying to figure out WHERE IS THAT DANG OIL GOING. For the rest of the car's life it used a quart every 300-400 miles. Never did figure it out, even after probably $1000 in various seals, gaskets, and labor from "expert" honda mechanics.

About 100,000 miles: rear wheel bearing started howling and I mean LOUD. $200 for the NAPA part plus labor. Dealer wanted something outrageous like $400 for the bearing alone.

120,000 miles DIstributor MELTS. Car just died in BFE Illinois. Quit, just like that. The inside of the distributor was a molten ball. It was really something to behold.

125,000 miles bad igniter from distributor faillure. car would not start one morning in my driveway. So this is twice I was left stranded.

130,000 miles steam coming out of radiator. Plastic heater core replaced with aluminum.

140,000 miles A/C compressor siezes, right at the start of one of the hottest Utah summers on record. $1000 to fix.

Did I mention a quart every 300-400 miles? Perfect compression, Oh I'll shut up.

On the bright side: CLutch was still good at 190,000, replaced brake pads at 120,000 because I could not believe they were still good (besides, the rotors were BADLY warped), NEVER had to do an alignment, Decided shocks were shot at 150,000 even though they were not leaking and teh dealers and honda mechanics said they were still good.

Di I mention the motor blew up shortly after I sold it?

Really, I told the kid to add oil every fillup. I heard over the grapevine he drove around at 7000 rpm all the time trying to race camaros. I think the motor would have gone another 100,000 if it kept getting fed oil.

Originally posted by KERMA:
Really, I told the kid to add oil every fillup. I heard over the grapevine he drove around at 7000 rpm all the time trying to race camaros. I think the motor would have gone another 100,000 if it kept getting fed oil.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The kid wanted to hit t3h v3t3c!!!!

the term "reliability" really describes two
very independent qualities: durability and
quality control. it is possible for a factory
to assemble a car made up of very cheap and weak
parts very well so that it doesn't fail during
its intended lifetime. after that, boom, time
to trade it in and get another.

durability means that your components are strong
and if your factory doesn't put them together
very well you will have niggling problems, but
once the car is fully debugged it will last a
very long time.

of course it is also possible to have a durable
car well assembled and a poorly assembled car
made up of crappy components.

without distinguishing between durability and
quality control, "reliability" arguments tend
to be endless!

I read that this will be the first diesel engine that Honda has actually brought in-house. All others were from suppliers, usually Isuzu. Even this first engine is a modification of an Isuzu design.

So, while it's nice that Honda is finally working with diesels in-house, do you really want to own their FIRST ATTEMPT?

While we're spouting anecdotal data:

-My '98 Dodge Neon R/T was flawless after 70,000 miles, lots of performance goodies (no rice "upgrades"), and lots of hard, 8400rpm driving. It was rough around the edges, but very fun to drive. I sold it because it got only 30mpg. I still miss that car.

-My '85 Toyota Corolla GT-S (rear-wheel drive with 1.6L 16v 4A-GE engine) went through clutches like crazy. A lot of the electronics on it also failed. However, it had over 8 years and 212,000 miles on the original engine and tranny before it burned to a crisp because some dumb-a$$ (me) left the brake fluid reservoir cap off after doing a brake job. Doh !!

-My 2002 NB TDI is flawless after 8,000 miles. Only time will tell if this will be a good quality car or not.

Originally posted by McBrew:
I've found that most people's impression of their own car comes with little regard to actual performance or dependability. In other words, if you want to love your car, you will. If you want to hate it, you will.

My GF's 1999 Civic definitely has it's problems. At 20k miles, the paint started cracking. The dealership and Honda of America both say that's because of acid rain. The car is washed bi-weekly and waxed bi-monthly. Also, it needs spark plugs every 20-25k miles. I'm guessing it's just the plugs that Honda uses, but the dealership even removed the Bosch plugs I installed and put Honda ones back in. Didn't solve the mysterious problem, though. It suffers from infrequent lokk of power. Also it about as fun to drive as a shopping cart. It's bigger than my Golf, yet weighs 400lb less. Window seals fail, lots of wind noise. Not a bad car, just not as perfect as most Honda owners will have you believe.

Another story: A good friend of mine bought a 1990 Mercedes 240D when he turned 16. not a quick car, but comfy and reliable. Good looking, too. A few years later he bought a used Celica. It was fun to drive and sportier, but has lots of problems. He sold it and started driving the Benz again. A few years later be bought an Accord. He loved the Accord, even though it left him stranded many times. Starter, alternator, and other more mysterious problems. Got rid of it, drove the Benz. Recently, he bought a brand-new Toyota Tacoma 4x4. Last time he came over to my place, he was driving the Benz. The Tacoma was in the shop. I can't remember what the problem was. Well, he's 27 years old now. The Benz has had absolute minimal service. It has been the most reliable car he's owned. Heck, he's been driving it on and off for 11 years! And he absolutely hates it.

Back to the topic: Yes, I'd love to see lots of different brands of modern diesel cars in the USA. Honda, bring it on! Mercedes, bring 'em back! VW, keep it up! We clearly need more choices. And the general public needs to be more aware of the advantages of diesel engines. And we need to be using more Biodiesel. Nuff said.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">27 - 16 = 11 years ago
2003 - 11 = 1992 was when your friend was 16
1992 - 1990 = 2-yr-old 240D

Geez...what kind of a job does a 16-yr-old have to afford a 2-yr-old Mercedes ?

I am sure he meant to say 1980 240D because they stopped making them in 83.

The 240D was probably the best car ever designed.

Before my TDI i had a 2001 Honda Civic 1.6 VTEC, it was a great car and it did the job nicely, I only owned it one year from new, no problems with it, it went for a minor recall (brake pedal pin i think) The engines in Hondas are well built, reliable etc, the problem being that you have to rev the nuts off them before they go anywhere, I used to have to shift at 4,200-4,500rpm to get up into the peak torque. Back on the subject I think the diesel Honda wouldn't be too bad, they have released a 1.7 CTDI over here in the civic with around 90-100hp and 160lbs/ft, i don't have the exact figures but it can't be that bad, but one thing that my Volkswagen brings me everyday is pleasure to drive, I don't know what it is about Honda's but they are just boring and feel very plasticy. I think you'd regret changing to one, after a few months of driving it everytime you see it outside the store when you're approaching it you'll think to yourself 'Oh for christs sake, I gotta drive this piece of **** home, I miss my VW'

cars i no longer own

1- 96 altama- blown tranny at 6000 miles and melted dist at 8600- my wife totaled that car at 14000- boy was i happy real lemon

2- 90 toy pu- you couldn't kill that engine- never a problem- bad thing was the truck was a rust bucket from the begining- sold it to some kid in 2000 at 140,000 miles- still on the road, but falling apart piece by piece

95 maxima- never a problem- sold it with 50,000 miles

cars i still own

84 mercedes 300sd- 90,000 orig miles- a real solid car- still looks showroom-never a problem

85 mercedes 300d- 265,000 miles- real war horse- great car, my wifes everyday driver- never a problem- starts when its -5, never skips a beat!!! i love this car

98 tdi jetta- 147,000 miles- my baby- only thing i ever replace was the diesel injection pump at 60,000 mile (mega bucks!) otherwise a real good ride- upsoluted at 103,000 and get a constant 48mpg

my point??? if you're gonna get a diesel get a german one- long term track record of solid engines