Hard starting when cold, for the 10,000th time!

zanakas

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Location
PA
TDI
2005.5 Jetta 160k - original cam, clutch
Hmm, sounds like a water pump to me...

To do the job right...you would be looking at replacing the pump, thermostat, and while you are in there....the timing belt and tensioner. I 'm not sure what your timing belt service interval is, but you can never be too safe.

This isn't a simple job (4 of 5 hammers, probably), and requires at least one special tool.

But, it IS necessary, and might as well get it out of the way...
 

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
Could be a coule of things. As already mentioned....the water pump. If the impeller came off the shaft, then the engine would still run fine (timing belt runs the water pump) but the impeller would not turn, meaning no circulation. The other possibility is the coolant level. If it is low, there is not enough coolant to flow through the heater core since it is the higherst point in the system. And it would inticate an overheat condition because the sensor would be exposed to the hot air instead of submersed in the coolant as it is also at a high pint in the system. This will give a higher than normal reading. Check the coolant level first. Its easier & cheaper.
 

vazjetta

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Location
UPSTATE NY
TDI
JETTA TDI 1999.5 ALH TDI
Just wnated to let folks know that thanks to the many smart folks here I was able to figure out my problem.
When cold ny car would drain the battery even replaced it. On days 38 degrees abd above it would not drain battery however it would crank for 6-8 sec before starting. Cleaned battery connections, also removed and clean starter but no creal improvement.
After reading some "Threads" I decided to replace the starter. Now it starts so quickly an even on days under 0 degrees.
So thanks to every one that shares their knowledge here. I jsut can't seem to trust the dealerships.
I'm also going to try the timing belt
 

Venturabass

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Location
Stonington, CT
TDI
2001 VW Jetta TDI GLS, tornado red, 5spd
ericy said:
One other thought. As temperatures have started getting colder, I have had more and more trouble getting started. Then I got a CEL:

1 Fault Found:
16502 - Engine Coolant Temp. Sensor (G62): Signal too High
P0118 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

According to what people around here say, this indicates a dodgy sensor. I *believe* that this is the sensor that the ECU uses to decide how long to run the glow plugs. Thus the thought comes to mind that a bad sensor might tell the engine that the engine is warm when it really isn't, and it won't run the glow plugs for very long. Leading to a difficulty getting started.

On my car, the sensor is borderline. Sometimes the CEL is on, other times it isn't. Other folks with hard starting problems might have a sensor that is weak, but not bad enough for the CEL to ever come on. I don't know if there is any kind of diagnostic one can do to test this without changing a sensor - the glowplug light on my car doesn't come on for very long, which I suppose is a further indication that there might be a problem in this area.

I still haven't gotten around to replacing the thing (first step is to find it :D). Replacement part is quite cheap. I really need to take care of this before it gets really cold...
I have had hard starting issues for a year now, in the cold. Replaced, starter, checked battery, checked (&replaced due to reg. maint.) timing belt, replaced glow plug harness and relay, checked each glow plug, and still hard starting. One thing I've beginning to wonder is the coolant temp sensor as described above.

The colder the temp (below 40) the glow plug indicator light stays on proportionally longer, but starting always requires 4-8 seconds of cranking (and below zero, even longer sometimes). I have tried techniques of cycling plugs and leaving the key turned (but without starting) for 10 seconds after gp indicator light goes out. This method helps reduce cranking to 2-4 seconds in temps as low as 10 degrees.

The weird thing is that no matter what how I start it, if you could pick 2 days, each at the same temperature using the same starting technique, the car may require drastically less cranking time on certain days vs. others.

The other thing I noticed just recently that has been even weirder is that the weekend before Thanksgiving, on 2 consecutive days, I started the and drove and noticed that the temp gauge starting to warm and then fell to zero and then finally warmed to op. temp. Ambient temp was 20-30F. This was the only 2 times this condition has happened.

Never had a MIL light for the coolant sensor, but I'm gonna give the "unplug" test tomorrow morning. I'm thinking maybe its on the "brink", or maybe it has a bad connection due to corrosion, something real minor that wouldn't trip a code, but would keep the hard starting....
 

tadc

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
The "suddenly drop to zero" phenomenon indicates a bad temp sensor. I saw the same thing on my car(also a 2001, but a Golf). However, it's not necessarily going to help your starting problem because of this: there are actually two "sensors" in the sensor. One drives the dashboard temp gauge, and the other feeds the computer. I don't believe the ECU monitors the dash half of the sensor though, just the ECU half. In my case, the computer half of the sensor worked fine (as verified with VagCom), but the dash half would exhibit that "drop to zero" behavior periodically, usually just before the car got to normal operating temp. I just lived with it for a long time because it didn't seem to cause any real problem, but I finally replaced it and it didn't make any difference in engine behavior(as expected). I wasn't having any starting issues though.

Your injection timing can be set "in spec" and you will still have this kind of cold start problem. In order to get good fast cold starts, you need to have it set to near the top of the scale.

You can also adjust the glow period using VagCom (I think Wingnut has a good post on how to do it), but this should be a last resort... if you have retarded injection timing, increasing the glow period is just masking the problem. The retarded timing will also hurt your fuel economy, power and emissions (perhaps not enough to notice though).
 

Henrie

New member
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Location
Mosinee, Wisconsin
TDI
Passat 2005
Hi everyone,

My husband and I just moved from AZ to WI. We are a two diesel family. I am having Cummings envy, since his has a block heater and seems to want to start. I am native to WI and grew up with KW's & Pete's that started better than this car in the winter.
My 2005 Passat TDI has seen the shop or stealership 4x in the last 2 months and was recently hauled there Monday (they replaced the battery-whoopee!) We have let the dealership know that once the temp started dropping to 22 F or less that it did not want to start. When you turn the key on to attempt to start the car, the glow plug light flashes on and is gone even before the other dash lights. We thought the glow plug light would stay on longer than 1 sec being that it was -14 F this week, but this has not been the case.

When my husband jumps it (with his diesel that does start) it cranks over, but boy does the car rattle and shake like it is going to fall apart.
We have added fuel additives, in addition to utlizing winter blend fuel.

Recently the dealership stated that my car's lojack like aftermarket device was drawing too much juice from my battery-even though the device is autonation certified and installed at a VW dealership. They stated that essentially, they would not be able to work on the car w/o this device removed. We are in rural WI and at the mercy of these clowns! This device was removed last Friday and the car still would not start on Monday morning- we had it hauled to their doorstep. They replaced the battery. Since Monday, it has started but it takes a few attempts to get it to turn over-rattle, rattle, shake, shake..
We have factory and extended warranties on this car, so you would think, hope, and deduce they could figure out after 4 visits that the glow plugs are not heating my engine. It has been -12 F on and off for a few weeks.
Now I have a car with a new battery that does not want to start and I an $$$$ expensive antitheft device. in a ziplock on our counter. The dealership states that w/o a "code" they cannot do anything.
I have been reading many of these strings and a common theme is the coolant temp sensor. Does this sensor trip a code if it is faulty?
Additionally, we have asked the dealership about a block heater and they say that it is not possible for one to be placed.
Other than the car not wanting to start in cold weather, it runs fine.

We called another dealership 2 hours from our house and they said to go online to get answers. Why do we have dealerships that work on TDI's, but cannot fix the problem? Are they now working like healthcare HMO's dictated by the codes? Basically, we were told if there is not a code, they will not get reimbursed for any work they may perform.

What next?

Frustrated and occassionally stranded,

A Passat TDI owner
 

tadc

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
A simple test would be to unplug the coolant temp sensor. This will give you the max glow time, AND set a temp sensor code for the retards to follow(assuming it works the same as my A4). If it starts well with max glow, that gives you something to work with. From your description it sounds like it's not glowing long enough, but it could also be retarded injection timing.

Unfortunately I can't tell you where to find the sensor on a Passat.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Henrie said:
We called another dealership 2 hours from our house and they said to go online to get answers. Why do we have dealerships that work on TDI's, but cannot fix the problem?
Many dealerships work on TDIs very, very rarely; so their techs lack the experience to properly diagnose problems. If it doesn't throw an error code, they have no clue.

Fortunately your online search has not only led you to the right website, but probably the best message thread to address your problem.

My Golf has spent a grand total of 2 weeks in the Great White North, two Christmas's ago, and then it started promptly in sub-freezing but not sub-zero temps. (Still made a lot more racket.) So I have no advice to offer, but I read these threads anyway so I can learn more.

Here is one you MUST read:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1137533

And there is another somewhere that discusses Samfisher's discoveries. So just search for Samfisher, both as a username and as a search term. And pay attention to what Drivbiwire says, he is usually exactly right.

Based on my readings, cold start problems usually result from 1) weak battery, 2) retarded timing, or 3) coolant temp sensor not properly signaling for glow plug activation. But Samfisher has found a software work-around, hopefully it will work on Passats as well as A4 Golfs/Jettas/New Beetles.
 
Last edited:

Wingnut

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Location
Toronto & Whitby
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta Wagon
The temp sensor and MAP sensor are what determines the amount of glow time the ECM gives. If it is below 0, then there definately should be some glow time. Unfortunately, I have no experience with Passats, but if they are anything like an A4, then you can unplug the temp sensor, as already mentioned, and see how long the glow plug light stays on. If the car starts fine after doing this, you should look into trying to get the sensor replaced. A failed sensor should throw a code, but a failing one may not. If a new sensor does not fix your problem, you may be able to extend the glow time with a Vag-com. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone has experimented with the newer cars to find out how to do it yet. It can be done on the older cars, so one would think its possible on the newer cars.

Hope this helps.
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
You seem to have gotten many responces so I don't know if you have solved your problem yet. But, the same thing happened to me. In -10 degree New Hampshire, the Jetta glow plug light would only stay on for a fraction of a second. Our check engine light was on as well. The solution: Replace the complete wireing harness for about 180 dollars. Works like a charm now.
 

tadc

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
Hmph, too bad it took a shotgun approach like that to solve the prob. Although 180 for a complete harness doesn't sound like list price. Was that parts only?
 

Henrie

New member
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Location
Mosinee, Wisconsin
TDI
Passat 2005
Thank you everyone for the useful input. The value of this information has surpassed anything that we have received from the dealership.Is there a resource that would assist us in locating the coolant temperature sensor? We would like to start deducing the engine non-warming problem.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Henrie said:
Thank you everyone for the useful input. The value of this information has surpassed anything that we have received from the dealership.Is there a resource that would assist us in locating the coolant temperature sensor? We would like to start deducing the engine non-warming problem.
I looked up Mosinee using Mapquest -- you really are in the boondocks, aren't you? I think someone was moderately positive about a VW dealership in Appleton or Green Bay, probably Appleton.

But, Madison is a straight shot down the interstate, so maybe contact JasonTDI and see what he can do for you? January is quickly approaching, so your problem will not go away on its own.
 

schiappad

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Intake Manifold Clogged in Oregon

Hi:

I just had my 40,000 mile service at a VW dealer for 2003 VW Golf TDI (I bought new) that is driven mostly highway miles.

I was told that my intake manifold is 50% clogged with carbon and that it could be cleaned for about $400. The technician told me that symptons are hard starting, which will continually get worse, until about 75,000 miles (at that point it may not start at all).

The reason explained to me is that the exhaust is recirculated into the intake manifold to meet emission standards. I would very much appreciate any advice because I would like to take off the manifold after the warranty period expires (50,000 miles), and take it in to be cleaned so I can save some money. Thanks.

Dave from Oregon

PS: Has anybody else had this problem, or heard of it?
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Welcome to the club. You will find much more information on this than you'd ever think you wanted to know by doing a search - use "+intake +clogging" in the search terms and you will find several threads that discuss this very item.

Also - where are you (except Oregon). we have an active group around Portland, and some others sprinkled throughout the state. Many of these people actually enjoy helping other TDI'ers out.
 

schiappad

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
intake manifold problem

Thanks RD. I did the search and found all the info I need, especially that some dealers provide intake manifold cleaning as part of the warranty.

Being new, I just learning how to navigate;) . Thanks again!
 

tehag

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Location
Loreto, BCS, Mexico
TDI
2003 Golf
2003tdi

2003 VW TDI
Cold start problem
Below 52°F starter will not crank. I wait for glow plug light to go out (couple of seconds, same as warm engine) then turn key the rest of the way. Nothing. No click. No crank. Nothing. All dashboard lights working. Any other temp above 52°F no problem, starts right up.
 

GOTDIZL

Active member
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
Golf GLS, 2002, Black
DB[/quote]

The one item that can cause an issue with starting is the Anti-Shudder valve. If this is contaminated with excessive soot it can stick in the closed position during shutdown. Simply moving the arm to the open position will cure the problem followed by removal and cleaning of the anti-shudder valve assembly.

DB[/quote]

Bravo! I wish I had known this before I made 4 trips to the dealer only to have them send me home with could not duplicate". I cleaned my intake and BAM! no more trubs.
 

dhg247

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Location
Bellefonte, PA
TDI
Jetta, 2004, grey
How long can you crank before damage is done to the car. I have a hard start/ no start problem. This morning at around 40F outside I had to crank the engine until the oil light came back on, Is this bad for the engine? How long can I safely crank the engine?

Thanks for your replies.

2004 Jetta PD TDI, 28,000
 

OldSchoolFresh

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Edmonton
TDI
'98 Jetta TDI
When it gets really cold here in Alberta, like -10 (actually not that cold) Celcius, I have to crank for about 20 sec since my timing is so retarted its nearly off the graph. My oil light starts to flash but quits once the car starts. Good question, is this bad in any way? Oh yeah lots of smoke too. 98 Jetta TDI
 

TooRoundTDI

Skunk Rocker
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Location
Broad Brook, CT. I have vag-com, PM me.
TDI
1998 Jetta
OldSchoolFresh said:
When it gets really cold here in Alberta, like -10 (actually not that cold) Celcius, I have to crank for about 20 sec since my timing is so retarted its nearly off the graph. My oil light starts to flash but quits once the car starts. Good question, is this bad in any way? Oh yeah lots of smoke too. 98 Jetta TDI
Why do you not adjust the timing? I had the same problem but I couldnt move the pump any farther advanced. After I did my timing belt the timing was at the top of the graph and it starts instantly now, like night and day.
 

tadc

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
The issue with extended cranking is that the starter overheats, as it's not rated for continuous duty. I've heard 30 seconds with 2 minute rest periods quoted before, but I don't know if it's based on anything other than a WAG.
 

max3fan

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
2002 Jetta - auto.
Wealth of information

To everyone posting feedback and informational help to various matters, I can't say enough about how valuable this forum is. I haven't been a registered member for long nor have I posted but a few comments since joining, but believe me I've gotten a ton of information from this forum over the past 7 months that has kept me from making any trips to the dealer. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to post information he or she experiences that will eventually help someone.
 

OldSchoolFresh

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Edmonton
TDI
'98 Jetta TDI
TooRoundTDI said:
Why do you not adjust the timing? I had the same problem but I couldnt move the pump any farther advanced. After I did my timing belt the timing was at the top of the graph and it starts instantly now, like night and day.
It's in the works I need a VAG com and it's most practical for me to get one myself, but it's going to get to -20ish celcius now so I can't work on it anyways.:mad: Hope next week will warm up, oh I hope my car starts in that cold temperature.
 

Fogg

New member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Location
England
TDI
Golf 1.9TDI 115 PD (2000)
Drivbiwire

You seem to know alot about this subject and so I'm hoping you can help me. Here in the UK, the temperatures have recently been droping to around freezing. My Golf 1.9TDI 115 bhp PD always starts 1st time in the morning, even when below freezing. But, at around 4°C (40°F)and below, the car will cut out by the time I reach the end of our road. I can restart by turning the engine (for what seems an age) for 15+ seconds. The colder it is, the more times it will cut out again and become more difficult to start. I have changed the coolant and fuel temp sensors, but there is no change. Can you or anyone help please?
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2005
im having the dreaded cold start problem and need some help. im from toronto where it can get pretty cold once and a while. my 2000 golf seems like it neve wants to start in the colder weather. i have had my starter replace due to starter grind and i have check the gp relys and gp therselves and there good. my timing has been check and corrected and i got the whole system cleaned. i dont know what else it could be any one have any ideas?:confused: my car cranks for a long time before it starts and when it does it studders and smokes for a few seconds before it reaches a constent idel. help!!:eek:
 

OldSchoolFresh

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Edmonton
TDI
'98 Jetta TDI
I adjusted my timing today and will test it tommorow morning. It will get to about -10 in the garage so the results will be clear on whether it worked or not. I'm thinking it'll start alot easier since I accidently moved the imjector pump too far towards to grill of the car so it had trouble starting with a warmed up engine. haha, but once I nudged it to be in the position it is in the graph it started like a champ.

Before:


After:


I wanted to advance it more but I couldn't move the pump anymore forward. Alot less smoke during full throttle now, practically none. Immediate results! Thanks TDIclub I couldn't do it without your help!
 

OldSchoolFresh

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Edmonton
TDI
'98 Jetta TDI
Well here's the follow up results, after sitting in a cold garage overnight it was about -5 celcius in there, before it would have some trouble starting even in that temperature. So today after adjusting the timing I go to fire it up and like magic it started up no problem! Just like if the entire engine was already warmed up! No cranking, no smoke, no stumbling, I was overjoyed to see it start that well. So its definately worth adjusting to help those cold starts. I think the timing is more important to cold starts than even glow plugs. Thanks again for the instructions I found on here!
 

tadc

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 13, 2001
Location
Stumptown
TDI
Golf GLS TDI, '01, Black
Ichbineincanadian: When you say the timing was "corrected", by whom and to where was it set?

If the timing is truely in the advanced side of the graph and not just somewhere "in spec", you might look into adjusting the starting parameters in adaptation(VagCom required).
 
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