FIX approved!!!!!

DanB36 said:

It confirms no such thing. Yes, they need to do a lot to the Gen 3 cars, but they're being held to a higher standard. The standards for the Gen 1 and Gen 2 cars are lower.
I guess so, if by "killer" you mean "the lowest depreciation for mileage you'll ever see."

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I guess some people have a different definition for 'Killer'.

I think the mileage allowance is fantastic and not pricey even after 12.5k/year.

Chris

Why do you lump gen one and gen two cars together? Aren't gen 2 cars, which use DEF, closer to Gen 3 cars?

Trade Wind said:

Why do you lump gen one and gen two cars together? Aren't gen 2 cars, which use DEF, closer to Gen 3 cars?

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The layout of the system is different. The gen 2 has the aftertreatment "added on" (as was the case with gen 1) - some of the components are under-floor - and the gen 3 has them "built in" attached to the engine. Also, on the gen 3, the DPF and the SCR catalyst are one and the same.

Having the catalysts directly attached to the engine makes a difference ... it's easier to keep it all up to the proper operating temperature.

KERMA said:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has approved a fix for about 70,000 polluting Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) diesel vehicles, involving an initial software change available now, it said on Friday.

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Who else is sick & tired of this rhetoric and narrative?

I suspect gen 1's might receive some sort of a partial fix and be approved. It would not be in EPA's best interest to have some 400,000 fuel efficient cars crushed with the new president ready to put down the hammer on them. I also suspect that's why gen 3's are suddenly approved...

I think we all knew the 2015's would be the easiest, and therefore the first fix to be approved. The gen 3 2.0 diesel likely needs more urea injection, and maybe some software fine tuning. If needed, VW can solve the service interval refill problem by installing a large Adblue tank.

2014 and earlier gen 2 Passats will be more problematic I suspect. In addition to more urea injection and a larger Adblue tank needed, they likely have catalysts that are undersized and not designed to perform emission reductions full time. They'll need more parts replaced and software upgrades to be approved. I had a 2014 Passat and it was a factor in my choice to turn it in.

The gen 1 2.0 diesels will be difficult, if not impossible to meet emissions. Where will the parts needed fit on the cars? I'm sure floorplans were not designed to house catalysts so there may be clearance issues, unless they figure out a way to install them under-hood. My guess is VW is likely hoping they'll buy back most of these. I can't even imagine the warranty issues that will arise out of the approved modifications - you know they will be numerous.

None of them are being required to meet the "NOx standards" that their model year required - instead, they are being required to meet a negotiated standard that is a compromise that both sides felt was reasonable under the circumstances. Then VW is paying additional moneys to compensate for the gaps. This is part of the settlement agreement.

I had a choice when I bought my 2015 Golf - I could have bought a 2014 instead. I thought the 2015 would be better - and as it turns out - at least for Dieselgate - it certainly was - even though we knew nothing about this at the time.

Why is the ad blue refill interval a problem that would require installing a larger tank? If it gets low you go to the nearest auto parts store, get a $12 bottle of it, and pour it in right next to the gas filler. 2 minutes, done. Am I missing something?

jhinsc said:

I think we all knew the 2015's would be the easiest, and therefore the first fix to be approved. The gen 3 2.0 diesel likely needs more urea injection, and maybe some software fine tuning. If needed, VW can solve the service interval refill problem by installing a large Adblue tank.
2014 and earlier gen 2 Passats will be more problematic I suspect. In addition to more urea injection and a larger Adblue tank needed, they likely have catalysts that are undersized and not designed to perform emission reductions full time. They'll need more parts replaced and software upgrades to be approved. I had a 2014 Passat and it was a factor in my choice to turn it in.
The gen 1 2.0 diesels will be difficult, if not impossible to meet emissions. Where will the parts needed fit on the cars? I'm sure floorplans were not designed to house catalysts so there may be clearance issues, unless they figure out a way to install them under-hood. My guess is VW is likely hoping they'll buy back most of these. I can't even imagine the warranty issues that will arise out of the approved modifications - you know they will be numerous.

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Some people don't do their own service, no matter how small. They (VW) made the AdBlue interval the same as the oil change interval. They might have done it by reducing AdBlue consumption using a software cheat. Not sure why I'm posting this as it's been discussed 15000 times already but there you go...

MTBTDI said:

They (VW) made the AdBlue interval the same as the oil change interval.

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They're required to do so by the relevant EPA standards.

Not sure why I'm posting this as it's been discussed 15000 times already but there you go...

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Indeed.

Leeshepard said:

Why is the ad blue refill interval a problem that would require installing a larger tank? If it gets low you go to the nearest auto parts store, get a $12 bottle of it, and pour it in right next to the gas filler. 2 minutes, done. Am I missing something?

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The service interval problems stems from the inconvenience of creating "more maintenance intervals" in their service requirements. I agree it's as simple as buying more fluid and filling it up. But I wouldn't want to see something like an "every 3,000 miles or whenever you need fluid, whichever comes first" type of service requirement on any new vehicle. I'm not saying you'll need to refill Adblue fluids this frequently, but auto makers want service intervals standardized so owners don't forget, or let a service interval slide. Another way VW could resolve this issue is if they provided free refills of AdBlue, no appointment needed, in and out in 5 min.

We have NEVER seen the "Ad Blue" warning in our Golf - that's not to say we won't ever, just that so far we haven't seen it. It doesn't look like a big deal to add it, and it's not like the stuff is hard to find... It's easier to find DEF than the special motor oil we need (VW507).

Great extended warranty included with the fix.

162K miles or 11 years warranty, that is a great selling point on taking the fix over the buyback.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...ssions_Modification_Disclosure_Volkswagen.pdf

Keith63 said:

This confirms what I have said all along. There will not be a fix for the Gen 1's or Gen 2's. Just look what they are having to due to the Gen 3's (2015 models) just to make them compliant. Come the deadline for the fix for Gen 1's and Gen 2's, there won't be one and you will have the following two choices:
1) Keep you TDI and receive nothing ( As in no compensation) or
2) Let VW buyback your TDI for a price much less than those who chose the buyback initially.

The more you drive them, the less you receive. The mileage is a killer.

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That release says NOTHING about Gen1 and Gen 2 cars. So they are still a big question mark.

Had this been on my Passat that got hit and totaled I probably would have kept my car. As it turns out I feel lucky they took back my 2015 Jetta. The car was a POS starting at about 4K miles. Would not recommend that car to anyone..

Don't get the Addblue problem needs a new service visit in the maintenance schedule. Do they have a Maintenance item for add washer fluid. I must be missing something

So, any projections on what the impact of the 2015 fix and warranty will be on resale/trade values? I have not looked at the KBB comparison between pre-dieselgate and current values, but presumably the values will climb back up once fixed and the extended warranty is in place. Will they recover to the original value trend, adjusted for age/mileage?

You could argue resale any number of ways: flawed car, maintenance issues unknown, questionable service life = low resale. Or: rare car, unbeatable mileage, cult appeal = high resale. Take your choice.

scooperhsd said:

We have NEVER seen the "Ad Blue" warning in our Golf - that's not to say we won't ever, just that so far we haven't seen it. It doesn't look like a big deal to add it, and it's not like the stuff is hard to find... It's easier to find DEF than the special motor oil we need (VW507).

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I saw it for the first time at 57k miles earlier this week. I thought my dealer might have been filling for free. Last for sure fill was at 10k free VW service which included adblue. My free oil changes that I've had done about every 5k I've always said no to DEF due to price. Currently telling me I have 1200 miles. First warning said 1500 miles.

cane929 said:

162K miles or 11 years warranty, that is a great selling point on taking the fix over the buyback.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...ssions_Modification_Disclosure_Volkswagen.pdf

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This document seems to be the best source of info. An interesting series of quotes:

w.r.t. Phase 1 modification:
"No significant changes to key vehicle attributes are expected, including fuel
consumption, reliability, durability, vehicle performance, drivability, or
other driving characteristics."

w.r.t. Cooling fan update:
"This update is not related to the emissions issue, and is addressed in the spirit of continued vehicle performance improvement."

w.r.t. Auto Trans:
"Vehicles with automatic transmissions will exhibit improvement in throttle response, a smoother acceleration and improved driving experience. "

w.r.t. Phase 2 modification:
"The Phase 2 updates are expected to have no further impact on overall vehicle reliability, durability, fuel economy, engine sound, performance, or drivability."

The use of the word "expected" in relation to the impact on performance and fuel economy are a little worrying, but the seeming inclusion of other improvements is surprising...

The fact that the warranty includes the fuel system and the turbo in addition to the exhaust system is interesting and appealing. But to me the greatest unknown is still the value of the cars down the road on resale or trade.

Tough call.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

You could argue resale any number of ways: flawed car, maintenance issues unknown, questionable service life = low resale. Or: rare car, unbeatable mileage, cult appeal = high resale. Take your choice.

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I suspect fixed 2015s will demand a premium price, especially considering the warranty that comes with the fix.

andyrooski17 said:

This document seems to be the best source of info. An interesting series of quotes:
w.r.t. Phase 1 modification:
"No significant changes to key vehicle attributes are expected, including fuel
consumption, reliability, durability, vehicle performance, drivability, or
other driving characteristics."
w.r.t. Cooling fan update:
"This update is not related to the emissions issue, and is addressed in the spirit of continued vehicle performance improvement."
w.r.t. Auto Trans:
"Vehicles with automatic transmissions will exhibit improvement in throttle response, a smoother acceleration and improved driving experience. "
w.r.t. Phase 2 modification:
"The Phase 2 updates are expected to have no further impact on overall vehicle reliability, durability, fuel economy, engine sound, performance, or drivability."
The use of the word "expected" in relation to the impact on performance and fuel economy are a little worrying, but the seeming inclusion of other improvements is surprising...
The fact that the warranty includes the fuel system and the turbo in addition to the exhaust system is interesting and appealing. But to me the greatest unknown is still the value of the cars down the road on resale or trade.
Tough call.

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Very good points, my big concern is maintenance cost over the next decade, and that extended warranty is making it hard for me to decide now.

I can't help but ask why this emissions fix can't be done all at once?

The only logical reason is the emissions modification impacts the longevitity of emissions equipment.

It would be interesting to know what the failures are over time and how it impacts maintaining these vehicles once the extended warranty is up . Will the cars stop working once this second NOx sensor is added and NOx emissooms gradually increase as the components age/fail?

e909 said:

I can't help but ask why this emissions fix can't be done all at once?

The only logical reason is the emissions modification impacts the longevitity of emissions equipment.

It would be interesting to know what the failures are over time and how it impacts maintaining these vehicles once the extended warranty is up . Will the cars stop working once this second NOx sensor is added and NOx emissooms gradually increase as the components age/fail?

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I can think of several logical reasons why they are doing it in two stages. I suspect it is for logistical purposes, and to give them time to prepare the hardware.

Yes - doing the S/w part of the fix will probably take care of the most of the discrepancy. The H/W part is to update for durability / etc. and the H/w will need time for them to start making the parts / get them to the dealers/ etc.

people with 2015's - dont be stupid. Keep your car if you like it.

But make no mistake - your car will NEVER be worth more than it is when VW buys it back - ever.

My 15 will probably go back at the end of this year. with 70-80K on it, I'll be getting 29,300-29,600. I paid 29K, + the wheels I added, and tax. I'l' be keeping those wheels unless VW pays me for them (they wont).

This illusion that you'll get some outlandish premium for a rare car is flawed. There is probably no more rare CR tdi than a 2015 sportwagen. They were on dealer lots for what, 4-5 months before the stop sale? Less than half a model year.....

Of those cars, manuals, and SEL's with the lighting package are probably the rarest of the rare. Mine is an SEL with lighting package. My car will never be worth more than the nearly 30K VW will be paying me for it. There is zero financial gain to be found from keeping it. None. Youve driven a 'free' car for 2-3 years, likely paying only maintenance and possibly taxes. And I do 25-30K a year.

No one will ever buy my car for 29.5K. Certainly not after the EPA butchers it.

Borsig said:

people with 2015's - dont be stupid. Keep your car if you like it.

But make no mistake - your car will NEVER be worth more than it is when VW buys it back - ever.

My 15 will probably go back at the end of this year. with 70-80K on it, I'll be getting 29,300-29,600. I paid 29K, + the wheels I added, and tax. I'l' be keeping those wheels unless VW pays me for them (they wont).

This illusion that you'll get some outlandish premium for a rare car is flawed. There is probably no more rare CR tdi than a 2015 sportwagen. They were on dealer lots for what, 4-5 months before the stop sale? Less than half a model year.....

Of those cars, manuals, and SEL's with the lighting package are probably the rarest of the rare. Mine is an SEL with lighting package. My car will never be worth more than the nearly 30K VW will be paying me for it. There is zero financial gain to be found from keeping it. None. Youve driven a 'free' car for 2-3 years, likely paying only maintenance and possibly taxes. And I do 25-30K a year.

No one will ever buy my car for 29.5K. Certainly not after the EPA butchers it.

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Exactly this.

I suspect in the open market I would have a tough time finding someone to pay 15k for my 2015 Golf TDI AT. VW is offering almost twice that value.

In ten years there might be a bit of a premium over comparable gasser models but I suspect in the short to medium term these vehicles are going to be stigmatized.

A few years ago TDIs were selling for almost double what their gasser counterparts were selling for.

Borsig said:

people with 2015's - dont be stupid. Keep your car if you like it.

But make no mistake - your car will NEVER be worth more than it is when VW buys it back - ever.

My 15 will probably go back at the end of this year. with 70-80K on it, I'll be getting 29,300-29,600. I paid 29K, + the wheels I added, and tax. I'l' be keeping those wheels unless VW pays me for them (they wont).

This illusion that you'll get some outlandish premium for a rare car is flawed. There is probably no more rare CR tdi than a 2015 sportwagen. They were on dealer lots for what, 4-5 months before the stop sale? Less than half a model year.....

Of those cars, manuals, and SEL's with the lighting package are probably the rarest of the rare. Mine is an SEL with lighting package. My car will never be worth more than the nearly 30K VW will be paying me for it. There is zero financial gain to be found from keeping it. None. Youve driven a 'free' car for 2-3 years, likely paying only maintenance and possibly taxes. And I do 25-30K a year.

No one will ever buy my car for 29.5K. Certainly not after the EPA butchers it.

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'15 CR Sportwagen rarest of the cr tdi's? My local dealership stocked about 10 tdi sportwagens for every golf tdi. I'd think the '15 Golf would be the rarest.

turbobrick240 said:

'15 CR Sportwagen rarest of the cr tdi's? My local dealership stocked about 10 tdi sportwagens for every golf tdi. I'd think the '15 Golf would be the rarest.

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The golfs are in the street. Most of those wagons never had the chance to be sold.