California Governor says to use biofuel

highender

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Governor Schwarzenneger said recently that we should use biofuels:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/12/MNG6FP74D61.DTL&hw=governor+biodiesel&sn=001&sc=1000


I think that using biofuels is great. But downsizing and other ways to decrease usage needs to be considered also. I also think California is starting in the right direction, in trying to promote biofuels .

What do you all think ?

THis can be the place for political discussions.....but its purpose is not intended to flame the boards or troll for arguments.

Lets play nice...and remember everyone has a point of view. :)
 
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McBrew

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everyone has a point of view and needs to be respected.
I don't think everyone's point of view needs to be respected. What about racists? Child molesters? Nazis? <-- sorry for invoking Godwin so early in this thread.

There is a false feeling that every side of an argument deserved credit... and that is the downfall of many TV and radio talk shows. Just imagine in this day of political correctness:

"Okay, Mr. ******... you say that the Jews should be exterminated. Lots of food for thought there. Mr. Goldman, do you have anything to add?"

Anyway, back to the topic. I think it is true that for diesels to become mainstream in this country, people (Americans) have to see that they are modern, clean, quiet, and powerful. A few examples of fast diesel sports cars would help to wipe away the image of the old, slow, smoky diesels of the past. However, to really get into biodiesel, the car/engine manufacturers are going to have to get on the bandwagon. We need higher percentages to be approved. If that means tightening up on ASTM specs, so be it. You can't use the excuse that people might mess up their engines with bad homebrewed fuel, because bad fuel is bad fuel. No car company covers damage due to bad fuel, as well they shouldn't.

I commend the Governator for his actions. I hope that it leads to something. Unfortunately, in California, the only diesels you can buy right now are trucks. We need to get the EPA on board with BlueTec and other high-tech diesel exhaust aftertreatment systems.
 

JamesBa

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Used diesels in CA?

McBrew said:
Unfortunately, in California, the only diesels you can buy right now are trucks.
Can't you buy a used TDI in CA or out of state and then bring it to CA and register it there?
 

03_01_TDI

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Yes you can. Many out of state near the border dealerships make a HUGE profit.

Which is why cali is land of fruits and nuts.
 

McBrew

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Yes. I'm sorry, I was referring to new vehicles. A used TDI (or other non-CARB diesel) has to have 7,500 miles on it before it can be brought in. I believe you also need to have a good reason for it -- you already had the car when you moved in, or your car broke down while out of state and had to buy a car to get back home. I'm not sure about that, but I think they do ask.

EDIT: Turns out I was wrong on the second part. Just 7,500 miles needed. Thanks Scott and Volkstraktor.
 
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Scott Leland

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I just bought my 2006 Jetta TDI DSG here in california. I got it from a wholesale and retail dealer which got at auction. The car came from Forida. I found it on "Autotrader". There are lots of TDI for sale on Autotrader. I called the DMV and they said that I would not have a problem requestering the car as long as it had 7500 miles.
 

jthesby

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Funny that Ahnald says to run bio, and yet we Can't get the carpool stickers that the hybrids and natural gas cars can:mad:
 

nicklockard

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If Arnold were truly serious about biodiesel promotion, he would get CARB to swing its considerable weight and impose some enforceable standards so that the manufacturers could engineer to a fixed and reliable specification fuel.

But as long as this hoo-haw 'free market as religion' anything goes cowboy brand of "self regulating" crap keeps up, biodiesel will NEVER go mainstream.

The 3 things needed for sucess for a new fuel are:

  1. Regulated, enforced standards.
  2. Regulated, enforced standards.
  3. And, regulated, enforced standards
 

Tuneman07

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There is another thing needed for success- its called get everyone out of the pockets of the oil companies. I think thats the only thing holding bioD back. Oil companies stand to lose an insane amount of money if something as simple and easily made on a small scale as BioD becomes mainstream. No one can make diesel, you need crude and a refinery its simply not possile on a small scale. Should high blends of BioD become the norm people can make their own on an individual basis, small companies can make small amounts and charge real prices not prices based on OPEC and other HUGE organizations consisting of multiple nations. Its simply not possible to screw with people concerning BioD. You can't say there is a war going on so prices have to go up, you can't say refineries wherever shut down so prices go up, these companies just stand to lose wayyyy too much money to let bioD catch on easily. Big oil has lots of money to throw at car makers, politicians, and whoever else has the power to create cars that run on bioD without problems, and mandate certain blends and anything that helps improve bioD popularity. Why are we making natural gas cars, hydrogen cars, hybrids, and all that other BS? All we need to do is replace D with bioD and instantly we can use zero petrolium and pollute far less. Nothing else needed. If bioD drops in price too then that will even help increase popularity of diesels in cars but even just switching trucks to BioD would save tons of oil. Oil companies will fight tooth and nail against it though.
 

Powder Hound

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Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. You guys might think for a moment and realize that bio-fuels was referring mostly to ethanol.

I'm not convinced that there's enough arable land available in this country to grow all the crops needed to produce sufficient quantities of bio-fuels, ethanol, methanol, oil for bio-d, methane from digested waste, etc. etc. to fuel the entire country. But even if there was, the EPA would never let it fly since there's be too large an environmental impact and losst of forest, old-growth forest, and many other excuses to be made up on demand.

But hey, it makes nice fodder for an ignorant press to feed to an uninformed public to whip up shrill cries for Big Brother to take over ever larger chunks of our lives. Regulation? Enforced standards? Better be careful because you may not like the opinions of who gets to enforce some arbitrary standards against you!
 

nicklockard

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PH said:
I'm not convinced that there's enough arable land available in this country to grow all the crops needed to produce sufficient quantities of bio-fuels, ethanol, methanol, oil for bio-d, methane from digested waste, etc. etc. to fuel the entire country.
'All or nothing' black & white thinking won't solve this problem. Absolutist extremism thinking leads to more problems than solutions.

And standards are absolutely crucial so that the manufacturers can engineer to a known. Furthermore, we need regulatory stability...we should map out the next quarter century and stick to that plan...it would make life a lot easier for manufacturers.
 
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ikendu

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Powder Hound said:
I'm not convinced that there's enough arable land available in this country to grow all the crops needed to produce sufficient quantities of bio-fuels, ethanol, methanol, oil for bio-d, methane from digested waste, etc. etc. to fuel the entire country.
Well, there's certainly not enough for corn ethanol or soy biodiesel.

Here's an approach:

1. Switch to PHEVs with 25 mile all-electric range - saves 60% of liquid fuel
...encourage more electrical growth from wind and solar sources
...build more electricity storage (like pumped water; got 25 sites now)
2. Higher mileage standards - save another 15% of liquid fuel
3. Corn ethanol - displaces 15% of gasoline
4. Soy biodiesel - displaces 6% of diesel

Whatever's left over we get from Biomass-To-Liquid (BTL) for both gasoline and diesel. We get it from mixed prairie plantings that are not replanted, retilled and don't require huge amounts of fertilizer. These will florish on land that won't support corn or soy beans. We also exploit the huge amounts of biomass waste we currently throw away (wood chips, sawdust, citrus peels, etc. on-and-on). I haven't even mentioned algae.

If the cost of fuel starts going up (and it will), we start retooling our society's infrastructure for more walking, biking and mass transit.

I love my biodiesel but I'm afraid the key to all of this is the Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) with 25 mile all-electric range. A DOE study from Dec. 2006 shows we could already charge 84% with existing grid and existing gen capacity. This should already be a key part of our transportation policy in this country.
 

RC

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ikendu said:
... the key to all of this is the Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) with 25 mile all-electric range.
Make that diesel PHEL, improve the range to 40 miles, and increase decentralized renewable generation (rooftops, local methane digesters, wind, tide, waste to heat/fuel) and we are close to there.
 

Tuneman07

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I just read an interesting article on algae for feedstock for biodiesel and I guess the byproducts of this can go toward ethanol. http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article-print.jsp?article_id=1502
I don't know if it is credible at all but it sounds cool. I was trying to find out how much waste oil mcdonald's uses yearly as it seems everything they do is on such a massive scale their WVO alone could probably be a pretty significant amount. Production for bioD is probably a problem but I am sure large amounts could be produced. I'm sure the world couldn't run on B100 but if even 20 or 30 percent could that would be huge combined with all the other things people are talking about.
 

highender

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McBrew said:
I don't think everyone's point of view needs to be respected. What about racists? Child molesters? Nazis? <-- sorry for invoking Godwin so early in this thread.

There is a false feeling that every side of an argument deserved credit... and that is the downfall of many TV and radio talk shows. Just imagine in this day of political correctness:

"Okay, Mr. ******... you say that the Jews should be exterminated. Lots of food for thought there. Mr. Goldman, do you have anything to add?"

OH...I agree that we are not to condone obvious socialpathic behaviour or viewpoints....:( I think most people understood that I mean varied viewpoints that are on topic and relating to biofuels and California's Terminator Governor :cool:


Anyway, back to the topic. I think it is true that for diesels to become mainstream in this country, people (Americans) have to see that they are modern, clean, quiet, and powerful. A few examples of fast diesel sports cars would help to wipe away the image of the old, slow, smoky diesels of the past. However, to really get into biodiesel, the car/engine manufacturers are going to have to get on the bandwagon. We need higher percentages to be approved. If that means tightening up on ASTM specs, so be it. You can't use the excuse that people might mess up their engines with bad homebrewed fuel, because bad fuel is bad fuel. No car company covers damage due to bad fuel, as well they shouldn't.

I commend the Governator for his actions. I hope that it leads to something. Unfortunately, in California, the only diesels you can buy right now are trucks. We need to get the EPA on board with BlueTec and other high-tech diesel exhaust aftertreatment systems.

Here I agree. HOwever there is a widely held view that diesels stink, and put out a lot of black smoke...and are more harmful than regular cars....
 

highender

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jthesby said:
Funny that Ahnald says to run bio, and yet we Can't get the carpool stickers that the hybrids and natural gas cars can:mad:

I also think we should be able to get special stickers, or at least not be taxed as heavily, ....if we run biodiesel.

Problem is , diesel cars can run biodiesel, but also regular diesel. No way one can be sure when other TDI vehicles are running only biodiesel.



I think biodiesel usage is relatively carbon neutral and the most environmentally friendly fuel at this time for our TDIs.

Correct me if I am wrong....
 

scythefwd

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Tuneman07 said:
Forget corn and soy- algae is the answer if there is one. 10-15 thousand gallons per acre vs 48 gallons per acre for soy beans.
Problem is that algea doesn't grow in cooler places like ab-normal (my wife went to nchs). Granted, you can use clinton lake, and places like that, but you would have to find a climent warm enough to produce viable amounts of algae. look at the great lakes, all of them get to cold for year round production. You could attempt to set up controlled algae farms in the gulf, hope its a mild huricane season. You could grow it indoors, but that would take more net energy than it produced (well, maybe not in a greenhouse). I think algea is the best thing we have right now, but it is far from what we need to completely replace diesel with biod (even supplimenting with wvo from McDonalds, and other major users)
 

euromade

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Tuneman07 said:
There is another thing needed for success- its called get everyone out of the pockets of the oil companies. I think that's the only thing holding bioD back. Oil companies stand to lose an insane amount of money if something as simple and easily made on a small scale as BioD becomes mainstream. No one can make diesel, you need crude and a refinery its simply not possible on a small scale. Should high blends of BioD become the norm people can make their own on an individual basis, small companies can make small amounts and charge real prices not prices based on OPEC and other HUGE organizations consisting of multiple nations. Its simply not possible to screw with people concerning BioD. You can't say there is a war going on so prices have to go up, you can't say refineries wherever shut down so prices go up, these companies just stand to lose way too much money to let bioD catch on easily. Big oil has lots of money to throw at car makers, politicians, and whoever else has the power to create cars that run on bioD without problems, and mandate certain blends and anything that helps improve bioD popularity. Why are we making natural gas cars, hydrogen cars, hybrids, and all that other BS? All we need to do is replace D with bioD and instantly we can use zero petrolium and pollute far less. Nothing else needed. If bioD drops in price too then that will even help increase popularity of diesels in cars but even just switching trucks to BioD would save tons of oil. Oil companies will fight tooth and nail against it though.
Well both you and I have our hands in the big oil pockets as our 401k plan(s) is buying some of these stocks that are performing well. After all no one likes to see their nest egg melting away.

I know people are for some reason concerned about relatively high gas prices, but how come no one was concerned about the over-priced housing market that is now finally cooling down?

How come no-one was complaining about the over inflated Internet stocks in the late 90's?

Now, I am sick and tired of the wall street speculators that always have a good enough excuse to jack up the oil price. Even if the price of crude goes down, the price at the pump goes up, as there is always a refinery in trouble. The latest one was a St. Croix refinery, that has slowed down its production due to a scheduled maintenance job. An yes, they have scheduled this job in the summer time when everyone needs more gas - therefore the price hike.

In W. Michigan price per gallon is almost as high as it was last July when crude was selling at $75+. Now that the crude is well bellow that mark they still charge close to $3/gallon as there is not enough refined oil. Just a bunch of BS.

Finally, even if majority of cars became Bio/Diesel capable, price per gallon would go up. Why? Well each state is funding their useless programs thru the fuel tax dollars. Fuel tax is per gallon, if less gallons are sold, they will raise the tax to cover the difference. Every state like big cars as it creates more revenue.

My point is:
I'm all for a renewable, USA made fuel, of any kind - any kind of non-Arab fuel source is my kind of fuel. This fuel however, will not be any cheaper, as the cheapest fuel is the one we are getting right now. At the same time, the non-Arab fuel should cleanup the environment and hopefully save some military related tax dollars.
 

Tuneman07

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Its true growing algae outside is a problem although fairly easy in desert regions at least according to the article I read. Other than that growing indoors is more expensive initially but energywise works out. I dont know the specifics of it but it sounds promising.
As for the oil companies we are all contributing to them and its not that which bothers me it is the fact that now that we have other options I am pretty sure they are using their power now to stop progress. That is the only thing that bothers me. I don't have a problem with big corporations except when we start sending money overseas but with oil there isn't much choice cuz thats where the oil is. We all have needed the oil companies for a long time but now we don't and they wont let us pull away. I think BioD would probably stay somewhere in the mid 2 dollars per gallon but the way D is going up with oil that 2.50 a gallon will look pretty nice and probably stay relatively stable when D is 5.00 a gallon. It will likely stay stable also if bioD operations stay relatively small. Having even 15 or 20 BioD companies along with just a few independant people would create enough competition to probably drive the price down but at least keep it at what it really should be, not what gigantic price gouger's set it at.
 

McBrew

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Heck, even if we don't buy ANY oil or petroleum=related products, we are subsidizing the oil industry with our tax dollars. More than half of the actual price of gasoline/diesel is hidden in government handouts and military funding. The amount we pay at the pump is more of a symbolic gesture than anything.
 

highender

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Tuneman07 said:
Its true growing algae outside is a problem although fairly easy in desert regions at least according to the article I read. Other than that growing indoors is more expensive initially but energywise works out. I dont know the specifics of it but it sounds promising.
As for the oil companies we are all contributing to them and its not that which bothers me it is the fact that now that we have other options I am pretty sure they are using their power now to stop progress. That is the only thing that bothers me. I don't have a problem with big corporations except when we start sending money overseas but with oil there isn't much choice cuz thats where the oil is. We all have needed the oil companies for a long time but now we don't and they wont let us pull away. I think BioD would probably stay somewhere in the mid 2 dollars per gallon but the way D is going up with oil that 2.50 a gallon will look pretty nice and probably stay relatively stable when D is 5.00 a gallon. It will likely stay stable also if bioD operations stay relatively small. Having even 15 or 20 BioD companies along with just a few independant people would create enough competition to probably drive the price down but at least keep it at what it really should be, not what gigantic price gouger's set it at.


Algae can grow quickly in relatively , depending on species , in their respective native climates.

Brown kelp grows up to 6 ft per day, in the relatively cool waters off the Pacific coast, where it is 60 deg F , but in winter goes down to 40s.

Caulerpa green algae grows quickly in the Med...where it is considered a weed/pest plant.

There are many other varieties that grow well in warmer climes....so desert with temp controlled ponds may be a great idea.
Use waste sewage water from the municipal water treatment facilities, to fertilize the algae...and the algae would scrub the water clean of nitrates/nitrogen compounds, phosphates, and other polluting molecules...

I think this is the best way to go .....
 

RC

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scythefwd said:
... You could grow it indoors, but that would take more net energy than it produced (well, maybe not in a greenhouse).
A passive solar greenhouse coupled with a waste water treatment plant, coal fired generator, or just about any waste stream would be a wonderfully efficient way to grow algae. There will be a good deal of these systems in years to come. Bank on it.
 

highender

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RC said:
A passive solar greenhouse coupled with a waste water treatment plant, coal fired generator, or just about any waste stream would be a wonderfully efficient way to grow algae. There will be a good deal of these systems in years to come. Bank on it.

I agree. A solar greenhouse, with waste water processing plant, and a solar /natural gas generator , can all be part of biofuel production.

IT would also cleanse the air, as photosynthesis recaptures the carbon dioxide . Of course, we should also plant a lot of trees.... to resequester the CO2 onto the earth's surface, instead of in the air.
 

jthesby

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highender said:
I also think we should be able to get special stickers, or at least not be taxed as heavily, ....if we run biodiesel.

Problem is , diesel cars can run biodiesel, but also regular diesel. No way one can be sure when other TDI vehicles are running only biodiesel.
Yeah, that is the one issue....at least a tax deductible for using bio, esp since it's a little bit pricier.... hell they can write off part of their vehicle purchase just cause it's a hybrid...
 

scythefwd

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Like I said in earlier posts, if you used clinton lake (heated by water from the power plant (nuclear power), you would have an almost perfect enviroment, but you would have to seed it. A solar green house would work, but they take up a lot of space.
 

Tuneman07

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Clinton lake is a great idea to use. That is a 4000 acre lake I believe. Even if 100 acres is used it would yield a million gallons per year. Add in Heidekki(spelling?), Lasalle Lake, and I think theres another one in Illinois I don't recall though and you could have 3 to 4 million gallons from just a 400 acre area.
 

highender

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Tuneman07 said:
Clinton lake is a great idea to use. That is a 4000 acre lake I believe. Even if 100 acres is used it would yield a million gallons per year. Add in Heidekki(spelling?), Lasalle Lake, and I think theres another one in Illinois I don't recall though and you could have 3 to 4 million gallons from just a 400 acre area.

Back on the East Coast , there are many lakes that I think we can tap into. I like the idea of using the waters that Nuclear power plants have heated up ( cooling waters) to grow algae. THere may be many other lakes...man made or otherwise environmentally feasible , in the southeast, to start these kind of operations.

On the west coast...where fresh water lakes are in short supply...and water in general has caused many lawsuits, the desert greenhouse application may be more feasible. The waste waters can even be dumped right around the desert areas, or if the waters are cleaned, they may be piped into local reservoirs....
 

CDI

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California is retarded

:confused: You couldn't buy a new TDI in California but you could buy a new Hummer.

To make it worse, in 2004 there was a giant tax break (Federal) for SUV's and trucks over 7,500 lbs.
 
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