Visting Prius Owner

FordGuy100

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Apr 13, 2011
Location
Silverton, OR
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2004 Jetta TDI
If I didnt care about driving, I would drive a Prius.

But I love driving. 46mpg over the last several tanks. 700 miles/week. 30% mountain backroad driving hard, 70% highway 75-80mph.
 

IFRCFI

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Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Location
Winchester, VA
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2013 Touareg TDI Lux
This is incorrect. They will be re-applying, '16s are expected in showrooms by January. Let's not get off track.

I'll take that bet. Name your wager. This time next year, we'll be wondering when small TDIs are going to show up.


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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
With automakers I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp, but my local dealer owner confirmed this on Thursday. So it seems likely, at least.
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Actually, I'm confident the EA288 diesel engine can be 'software' enabled to pass both the lab and road tests. VW announced that 60,000 vehicles would only need a software update and that looks to be the last two years of TDI sales.

January 2016 is well within the range to support 2016 TDI sales. It also corresponds to when the 2016 Prius will be available at dealers. Hummm, wonder if anyone else realizes this?

Bob Wilson
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
It also corresponds to when the 2016 Prius will be available at dealers. Hummm, wonder if anyone else realizes this?
Very few people cross-shop VW TDIs and the Toyota Prius. Really the only thing the two cars have in common is fuel economy.
 
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DPM

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Newtownards, N. Ireland
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2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
^ in the US. Things look different over here...
Locally, both taxi firms and the Police use Prii and Skoda Octavia/ Superb TDIs
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Very few people cross-shop VW TDIs and the Toyota Prius. Really the only thing the two cars have in common is fuel economy.
I was thinking of the Edmunds article: http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/fuel-sipper-smackdown-2.html

  • Jetta TDI (fixed) or Golf TDI (fixed)
  • Volt-2 (sales just started)
  • 2016 Prius (new release)
  • Hyundai Sonata hybrid (impressive sedan)
  • Passat TDI (refreshed)
Notice I'm proposing a mix of sedans and hatchbacks but I'm not overly concerned about which vehicles are part of the mix other than the 2016 Prius be there. Swap in a Ford makes sense.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web

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Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Someone called out for a chart and we had been discussing the recent EU change to increase NOx levels by 2.1 times. Eventually we figured out how to map Euro, 6 to the current USA standards. But along the way, I went to the CARB site and generated this:

Now these were levels with the "defeat device." Once VW releases the software update and gets a certificate for 2016, we should soon see the new values. FYI, the 70 g/mi is the current USA limit but it appears to be a somewhat complex formula involving averaging the fleet sales (which I don't fully understand either.)

Bob Wilson
 

tikal

Veteran Member
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Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I think it is fair to say that the majority of hybrid buyers do it based primarily on environmental convictions (vs buying a similar sized efficient gasoline only vehicle). I am all for reducing our global environmental footprint.

The 'defeat device' for hybrid/electrical vehicles is not car manufacturers lying but not giving the whole picture of the environmental addition of battery mining/manufacturing/recycling to the tailpipe emissions of such vehicles.


How many additional people die worldwide due to the hazards involved with mining rare earth minerals for hybrid/electrical vehicles? Is that important to hybrid vehicle owners or is it negligible?
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
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Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
I think it is fair to say that the majority of hybrid buyers do it based primarily on environmental convictions (vs buying a similar sized efficient gasoline only vehicle). I am all for reducing our global environmental footprint.
Actually most are interested in saving Greenback dollars at the pump. The ones you're thinking of moved to EVs back in 2012 when they became common.
The 'defeat device' for hybrid/electrical vehicles is not car manufacturers lying but not giving the whole picture of the environmental addition of battery mining/manufacturing/recycling to the tailpipe emissions of such vehicles.


How many additional people die worldwide due to the hazards involved with mining rare earth minerals for hybrid/electrical vehicles? Is that important to hybrid vehicle owners or is it negligible?
Well you are in luck as this article shows how Prius owners are counting deaths today.

Bob Wilson
 

turbovan+tdi

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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
LOL, I spit my coffee out reading the result of that article. Sorry but what a load of crap. Page 8 has most of the juicy details. A small clip-

We estimate the public health impacts and associated
costs of the alleged CAA violations by VW due to
defeat devices being present in model year 2009–2015
light duty diesel vehicles with 2.0 litre engines. An
estimated ∼36.7 million kg of excess NOx emissions
occur from 2008 to 2015. Our computed excess NOx
emissions in 2015 are equivalent to ∼1% of the total
light duty vehicle emissions.
We estimate that ∼59 early deaths will be caused
by 2008–2015 excess emissions with a monetized cost
of ∼$450m. (Some of the estimated deaths caused by
historical emissions have not yet occurred due to the
cessation lag structure assumed.) Morbidity impacts
include ∼31 cases of chronic bronchitis, ∼34 hospital
admissions, ∼120 000 minor restricted activity days,
∼210 000 lower respiratory symptom days, and
∼33 000 days of increased bronchodilator usage.
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Actually my reply was for someone else:
. . .
The 'defeat device' for hybrid/electrical vehicles is not car manufacturers lying but not giving the whole picture of the environmental addition of battery mining/manufacturing/recycling to the tailpipe emissions of such vehicles.

How many additional people die worldwide due to the hazards involved with mining rare earth minerals for hybrid/electrical vehicles? Is that important to hybrid vehicle owners or is it negligible?
Something about not throwing rocks comes to mind. <GRINS>

As for epidemiology studies, I'm no expert. But when I can, I prefer to find the source material for an article versus someone's interpretation. Still at age 65, I've had direct experience with air pollution in California, Denver, and Washington DC.

In April 1992, I was driving a VW MicroBus in Riverside CA taking a cloverleaf. Suddenly my eyes teared up worse than the Marine Corps, pepper gas training hut that I'd gone through less than a year earlier. I was briefly, involuntarily blind at ~30 mph in a turn. Fortunately, I had a damp T-shirt next to the seat and a quick wipe returned enough vision to complete the turn.

I hope the youngsters never have to live with that bad air again. But it was direct experience that taught old guys like me why the Clean Air Act is so important. Yet I realize those who grew up with what we breath now can not relate to the old days . . . unless they visit places like this one in China:


But I like our Prius because they give us 52 MPG, year after year, city and highway. Still, one of my first modifications was to make our 2003 Prius into an emergency generator: http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html

In April 2011, tornadoes tore up the TVA transmission lines and we had 4 days, 6 hours, without utility power. We burned 2 gallons per day to quietly and safely have 1 kW, enough for lights, TV, and the gas heater. In contrast, we could hear a neighbor half a block away who risked the carbon monoxide exhaust. This remains a popular Prius modification and appears to be an option in the new, 2016 Prius. At one time the Ford Escape hybrid had this as an option.

Bob Wilson
 
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Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
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Only the B4V left
We burned 2 gallons per day to quietly and safely have 1 kW, enough for lights, TV, and the gas heater.
The Prius uses less fuel at idle than a TDI?

When I did a search everything I found said the gas engines use 0.8L/Hr at idle (1.1 with the A/C), which is 5.07 gallons per day. My TDI uses 0.39L/Hr as per the Scangauge and VCDS, which is 2.47 gallons per day.

Maybe home generators should be hybrids, or are they. I haven't looked into them in a few years.
 

Tdijarhead

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Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
LOL, I spit my coffee out reading the result of that article. Sorry but what a load of crap. Page 8 has most of the juicy details. A small clip-

I agree what a disingenuous bunch of horse hockey. To many people with to much time on their hands with nothing else to do after receiving an expensive ivy league edu...indoctrination.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
There has been some criticism of that MIT/Harvard study.


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/28/zero-deaths-from-vw-diesel-scandal/


Even if that study is even remotely accurate, it apparently didn't account for the lower-than-certified emissions of NMOG, CO and PM in the ICCT/WVU study.


"…In general, CO emissions factors are close to two orders of magnitude lower than the applicable US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard for all three vehicles…" [Page 65]

"…In general, THC emissions factors are well below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 NMOG standard for Vehicles B and C as well as over Routes 3 and 4 for Vehicle A…." [Page 69]

"...It has to be noted that chassis dynamometer testing of Vehicle A and B indicated that 95 - 98% of the total hydrocarbons emitted were measured as methane (CH4)..." [Page 67] (i.e., most of the THC was NOT NMOG)

"…In general, PM emissions are on the order of 0.01mg/km ±0.005mg/km (±1σ), thereby nearly 100% (99.89%) below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard…." [Page 83]

Source: Thompson et al., “In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States.” International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014
 

rwolff

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Lesser continental mass, Tosev 3
TDI
None yet
Still, one of my first modifications was to make our 2003 Prius into an emergency generator: http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html

In April 2011, tornadoes tore up the TVA transmission lines and we had 4 days, 6 hours, without utility power. We burned 2 gallons per day to quietly and safely have 1 kW, enough for lights, TV, and the gas heater.
The Prius uses less fuel at idle than a TDI?

My guess is that the 2 gallons/day wasn't continuous running. Remember that the Prius has a BIG battery pack - the mod probably involves an inverter running off the battery pack combined with auto-start of the engine when the battery gets too low, running it at its most efficient output to recharge the battery pack, and then shutting down again.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
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Only the B4V left
I took that into account.

The engine charging the battery is inefficient due to system losses, which is why the vehicle has regenerative braking, but that braking isn't used when the vehicle is parked.
 

makattack

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Location
Boston, MA
TDI
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI/S/Manual
I took that into account.

The engine charging the battery is inefficient due to system losses, which is why the vehicle has regenerative braking, but that braking isn't used when the vehicle is parked.
Something like a honda gas generator doesn't have a potential energy reservoir it's dumping all the generated electricity into (a battery), so it's inherently less efficient based on the idea that what you don't use is just lost. With the prius battery as a storage device, I suspect that's where the advantage of having an energy store overcomes the inherent loss with using a car motor to drive the dyno.
 

saGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2003
Location
Wilmington, DE
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS Alaska Green ESP [sold] 2012 Chevrolet Volt
I took that into account.

The engine charging the battery is inefficient due to system losses, which is why the vehicle has regenerative braking, but that braking isn't used when the vehicle is parked.
Two completely different and unrelated concepts here.

Regenerative braking has nothing to do with the efficiency off engine charging the battery - it is an independent way of recovering energy in any hybrid or EV.

The engine charging the battery to later drive the wheels is less efficient than the engine power going directly to the wheels, yes.

However... The engine efficiency varies widely based on rpm and power output, with the result that in many cases it is actually more efficient to run the engine harder than the road requires right now and bank that energy in the battery for later.

No portable generator is anywhere near the Prius's 37% peak thermal efficiency even wide open, and mostly they end up running at part throttle the whole time, wasting more fuel. The prius will be running maybe ten percent of the time, with the engine at an efficient point. Paying ten percent of the energy in battery losses to get that still leaves the Prius way ahead in overall consumption.
Walter
 
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redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
If you install an inverter on the 12 volt side and then start the car it will happily put out the 120vac for as long as there is gas. The car will start and stop the engine as necessary to keep the traction battery in condition to operate the car normally.
It will just sit there and do what it has to.
The amount of fuel it burns I could not say, but it would be less than a TDI, probably.
The TDI would run continuously and the Prius would start and stop and probably run about 10 - 15 min out of an hour.
The TDI would not be happy idling all day. Also the DMF would be subjected to unnecessary wear and tear.
I think in this case the efficiency is not an issue either way. 1K generator when needed with a pretty big tank. Mobile too!
Of course you could do the same with any car TDI included.
If you really wanted to get some power then power the inverter off the traction battery and not the 12 volt system.
Gen I = 273.6 volts, 6.5 Ah = 1778.4 watt/hr
Gen II = 201.6 volts, 6.5 Ah = 1306.5 watts/hr.

The generator / motor would provide more than this of course, but without the engine this would be available for short times engine off. The computer would take care of running the engine to keep the battery within it's charge parameters.
Not a bad idea, but a Harbor freight 2500 watt inverter generator is cheaper and more fuel efficient.
 

IFRCFI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Location
Winchester, VA
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI Lux
This is incorrect. They will be re-applying, '16s are expected in showrooms by January. Let's not get off track.

Indigo,

It would be interesting to re-query your dealer, now that the 3.0 news is out via a whistleblower. Think the '16s are still coming in 2 months?

The EPA has no incentive to approve anything new. It's called leverage.

Sad.



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