Visting Prius Owner

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Hi,

Apparently VW (and others) have been actively spreading a lot of false information about the Prius versus the TDI diesels. Sad to say, we've learned VW committed a fraud since at least 2009 and we are sorry for this. Diesels did not deserve this fraud nor their owners. But it also reveals the long standing efforts by professional liars to mislead about the Prius. This posting is an attempt to bring facts and data.

No, we are not interested in "capturing" TDI owners. Rather, we want to address the FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) that these professional liars have been spreading. If you prefer to spread NOx with a high performance TDI, go ahead just as VW wants you to do. As an owner of two Prius, I don't care.

ABOUT THE PRIUS

It is not a perfect car. The monocoque body has been too flexible since 2004. The 2004-09 Prius have after-market, body stiffener plates. This is not a car for precise steering.

It is also has average acceleration. The traction battery torque comes on instantly but after about 30 yards, the car fades. Now 30 yards is enough to beat the light into the best lane but others will reach the next light first. The Prius is not a street racer BUT fast enough to get the best lane.

ABOUT THE ENGINE

The power-stroke expansion ratio is 13:1, close but not in the diesel range. Yet this means it has higher energy extraction than any other gas-only car. This balances the NOx emissions while achieving excellent thermodynamic efficiency.

The Prius engine trick is leaving the intake valves open during part of the compression stroke pushing part of the charge back into the intake manifold for the next cylinder intake. This means the true compression is 8:1 allowing use of affordable, regular gas. Because part of the fuel-air charge is pushed back into the intake manifold, it is mixed better than any gas-only car. It also means the energy lost compressing the charge is less than a diesel, another energy saving.

In contrast, a diesel has a significant requirement for the starter and battery. Even then, some of the older diesels needed a pause in cold weather before driving to warm up the cylinders. In contrast, the Prius starts the engine in less than 200 ms. When warmed up, even faster.

ABOUT THE TRANSMISSION

Many do not understand that the traction battery is part of the transmission and not a separate drive system. This means the engine with this transmission will always match to the load. Best of all, there are no clutches . . . none.

There was a patent case ruled against Toyota but it was because micro-processors are used to manage the transmission operation. That patent has expired.

As for the traction battery, it is part of the transmission, the electronic shift mechanism. We have found perfectly working Prius with 1/3d of the traction battery capacity still running. Best of all, anyone who understands basic electronics can rebuild the traction battery and get a better car.

SUMMARY

If you decide to try the Prius, buy a used one with some warranty remaining. You might find it does not meet your expectations, so sell it. Understand the Prius is not for everyone. Try it and if you like it, more modern ones are available. But minimize your risk by starting with a used one.

Avoid the 2001-03 Prius unless you want to learn about hybrid technology as an applied engineering course. This is not for technically 'light-weights', only serious engineers need apply. We have one and are very happy with it but I'm an engineer.

The 2004-09 Prius is a fine functional car with a 1.5L engine. It is best for non-technical car drivers yet offers some interesting options for the skilled. The 2010-current Prius will soon be much more affordable and we have one too.

The 2016 Prius is not available until December/January. NEVER buy the first model year in a strange technology. Wait at least two year (like we will) and let the 'pioneers' work out the initial bugs.

Bob Wilson
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Link to said articles please!
 

Ol'Rattler

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Location
PNA
TDI
2006 BRM Jetta
What exactly are these "lies" you speak of?

Such as you can't tow with a Prius? Well, with a TDI You can. I moved a console piano in a covered U-haul trailer over 300 miles over a mountain pass With zero issues. If you had tried the same thing with a Prius you would have caused serious damage.

Prius EPA fuel economy is less than estimated while TDI's fuel economy usually beats the EPA estimate? Also true.

Until battery technology makes some real progress in capacity, weight and the manufacturing of batteries isn't such a blight on the environment, the whole concept of a hybrid is just lame and a feel good scam inflicted on the uninformed masses.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
My objections to the Prius aren't anything to do with its drivetrain concept - I consider that to be very well engineered. My biggest beef is the absurdly overassisted, video-game-like power steering and the dead feeling to its controls. A hybrid doesn't have to be so dreadfully dull to drive. The Prius is far from the only modern-era Toyota that feels like that. It's a Toyota issue, not a hybrid issue.

I realize that it is marketed to people who don't care about driving, who own a car because they need an appliance, not because they want one. But why not fix the steering and suspension? The people like myself who refuse to buy one because of how awful they are to drive will no longer be turned off. The people who are buying an appliance won't notice the difference ... or maybe they would. "So THIS is how it's supposed to be."

Toyota claims the all-new 2016 model is going to have better handling and be a better driver's car. We'll see. My objection to THAT one is that they beat it with an ugly stick ...

P.S. I'm going to be in the market for a new company car (my company, so I call the shots) next year. The new Chevrolet Volt is on the short list. IMO Volt > Prius by a long shot ...
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Prius owners have been putting tow bars on them since 2001. Both our 2003 and 2010 have tow bars and are used:

Towed 600 miles through a North-Eastener, the trailer and airplane weighed ~1,750 lbs and still got 28 MPG. Yes, stiffer rear springs would have helped but I was under a time limit.

As for lies about the Prius, search Google for "Prius myths." Then there was that VW press release in 2008 that reported getting higher than EPA mileage, which the "defeat device" did.

Bob Wilson
 
Last edited:

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I know someone who tows a small motorcycle trailer with a Prius, and he hasn't had any issues. There's really no "hardware" reason that the Prius drivetrain couldn't handle towing. There's no clutches to excessively slip and wear out, there's no torque converter to go into unlocked mode and overheat. The power electronics should be rated for full continuous output. Bodyshell integrity, brakes, suspension etc are other matters but the situation is no different from any other car. It will of course drain the battery and be operating on engine power, but it's designed to do that.

It ain't gonna get 50 mpg US when towing - but a TDI won't, either.

My Jetta TDI would get 30 mpg US when towing a motorcycle trailer with 2 bikes on it.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
This is a good thread. Keep the discussions civil and we're all good.
 

325_Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Location
West Central Texas
TDI
MkV Jetta
I agree with GoFaster. I like the concept but the styling and driving experience are what kills it for me. My pre-TDI car was a Honda Civic Hybrid...built well, drove well, and although it had some teething issues when brand new, Honda stood behind their product and warrantied all needed repairs no questions asked.

The Prius....great concept but yuck.
 

no-blue-screen

TDI Nut
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Location
Maryland
TDI
TDI
I like the concept of electric vehicles but I am not sure I would want to own one. I do like the Chevy Volt myself but I fear the complex electronics. I think if I were in the Market....and I am not...but I think I would go with a comaro ss.... But for now the wife needs a new car to replace her 05 Chevy Uplander with 185k.

Posted via my phablet using Tapatalk
 

oldhifi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Location
Kingston, tn
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI Lux
Hi,

Apparently VW (and others) have been actively spreading a lot of false information about the Prius versus the TDI diesels. Sad to say, we've learned VW committed a fraud since at least 2009 and we are sorry for this. Diesels did not deserve this fraud nor their owners. But it also reveals the long standing efforts by professional liars to mislead about the Prius. This posting is an attempt to bring facts and data.

No, we are not interested in "capturing" TDI owners. Rather, we want to address the FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) that these professional liars have been spreading. If you prefer to spread NOx with a high performance TDI, go ahead just as VW wants you to do. As an owner of two Prius, I don't care.

ABOUT THE PRIUS

It is not a perfect car. The monocoque body has been too flexible since 2004. The 2004-09 Prius have after-market, body stiffener plates. This is not a car for precise steering.

It is also has average acceleration. The traction battery torque comes on instantly but after about 30 yards, the car fades. Now 30 yards is enough to beat the light into the best lane but others will reach the next light first. The Prius is not a street racer BUT fast enough to get the best lane.

ABOUT THE ENGINE

The power-stroke expansion ratio is 13:1, close but not in the diesel range. Yet this means it has higher energy extraction than any other gas-only car. This balances the NOx emissions while achieving excellent thermodynamic efficiency.

The Prius engine trick is leaving the intake valves open during part of the compression stroke pushing part of the charge back into the intake manifold for the next cylinder intake. This means the true compression is 8:1 allowing use of affordable, regular gas. Because part of the fuel-air charge is pushed back into the intake manifold, it is mixed better than any gas-only car. It also means the energy lost compressing the charge is less than a diesel, another energy saving.

In contrast, a diesel has a significant requirement for the starter and battery. Even then, some of the older diesels needed a pause in cold weather before driving to warm up the cylinders. In contrast, the Prius starts the engine in less than 200 ms. When warmed up, even faster.

ABOUT THE TRANSMISSION

Many do not understand that the traction battery is part of the transmission and not a separate drive system. This means the engine with this transmission will always match to the load. Best of all, there are no clutches . . . none.

There was a patent case ruled against Toyota but it was because micro-processors are used to manage the transmission operation. That patent has expired.

As for the traction battery, it is part of the transmission, the electronic shift mechanism. We have found perfectly working Prius with 1/3d of the traction battery capacity still running. Best of all, anyone who understands basic electronics can rebuild the traction battery and get a better car.

SUMMARY

If you decide to try the Prius, buy a used one with some warranty remaining. You might find it does not meet your expectations, so sell it. Understand the Prius is not for everyone. Try it and if you like it, more modern ones are available. But minimize your risk by starting with a used one.

Avoid the 2001-03 Prius unless you want to learn about hybrid technology as an applied engineering course. This is not for technically 'light-weights', only serious engineers need apply. We have one and are very happy with it but I'm an engineer.

The 2004-09 Prius is a fine functional car with a 1.5L engine. It is best for non-technical car drivers yet offers some interesting options for the skilled. The 2010-current Prius will soon be much more affordable and we have one too.

The 2016 Prius is not available until December/January. NEVER buy the first model year in a strange technology. Wait at least two year (like we will) and let the 'pioneers' work out the initial bugs.

Bob Wilson

How much does it cost to replace those batteries??
 

kydsid

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Location
Texas
TDI
2012 Passat
If they could put a Toyota badge and price on a CT200H Id buy a "Prius", well at least consider it. None of the FUD as you call it ever kept me away. Being ugly kept me away.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I don't know what "false information" you refer to, but for me a Prius isn't an alternative to any VW, much less a TDI. I've owned a number of Toyotas in the past, but not since the early 2000s as they've rushed towards the appliance end of the automotive spectrum. Scion has a couple of marginally interesting cars, but otherwise everything is hybrid or low output normally aspirated gas, almost no manual transmissions, and a great willingness to sacrifice handling for a smooth ride. Not my preference.

One of my favorite cars of all time was our '94 Previa. Supercharged, huge sunroofs, leather, captains chairs...for 10 years that car took our family everywhere with almost no problems. It was terrible in the snow until I got 4 Blizzaks, then it was unstoppable. I also owned a 2000 MR2 Spyder which was a lot of fun, but was as impractical as the Previa was practical.

I've driven the current Prius. They get the job done, and a number of my friends have them, but I would never own one, or any hybrid for that matter. Too much cost and complexity for too little performance, IMO.
 

makattack

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Location
Boston, MA
TDI
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI/S/Manual
I actually do like the idea of hybrid / electric vehicles. Heck, my hobby interest the RC aircraft world has shown me how much lithium polymer batteries and electric brushless motors have become much more affordable in short time. Personally, it would be easier for me to maintain an electric vehicle vs an ICE vehicle if only because I potentially won't have to deal with the mess of petroleum products except for lubricating bearings.

There's just one thing preventing me from going with a hybrid or EV vehicle:

I live in the Northeast, in the city. We just don't have the infrastructure widely available to make this work for me. Sure, there are EV charge points near my home and work, but I don't drive to work, and the one near my home is in the parking lot of a market intended for EV customers. Street parking means my vehicle is rarely parked in the same spot.

Hybrids would solve the EV charging point issue, but adds the complexity of having a electric powertrain + a ICE system.

I really need to wait until a EV infrastructure exists in the city. Or car sharing based EV services take off.

My military experience showed me one main weakness of US ground forces is the long logistics line needed to support the heavily fuel dependent force. That's why hybrids, particularly diesel-hybrids do make sense for the Army, and they are moving in that direction.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
I actually find it refreshing to hear a Prius owner who admits to the weak points of the car as well as its strengths. No car is perfect and all have their good and bad points. The only 2 things I have against hybrid cars (not only Prius) is the owners overstating the "greenness" of their cars and acting like they are saving the world single-handedly, and the serious environmental issues with the mining and processing of the lithium and the manufacturing of the batteries. If/when these 2 issues are solved, I will seriously consider electric power in my car. I can't wait for reasonably priced fuel cell cars (no batteries!).

As for the "boring to drive" part of the arguments above, that would be a plus to some drivers and a minus to others. To each his own.

Have Fun!

Don
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I actually do like the idea of hybrid / electric vehicles. Heck, my hobby interest the RC aircraft world has shown me how much lithium polymer batteries and electric brushless motors have become much more affordable in short time. Personally, it would be easier for me to maintain an electric vehicle vs an ICE vehicle if only because I potentially won't have to deal with the mess of petroleum products except for lubricating bearings.

There's just one thing preventing me from going with a hybrid or EV vehicle:

I live in the Northeast, in the city. We just don't have the infrastructure widely available to make this work for me. Sure, there are EV charge points near my home and work, but I don't drive to work, and the one near my home is in the parking lot of a market intended for EV customers. Street parking means my vehicle is rarely parked in the same spot.

Hybrids would solve the EV charging point issue, but adds the complexity of having a electric powertrain + a ICE system.

I really need to wait until a EV infrastructure exists in the city. Or car sharing based EV services take off.

My military experience showed me one main weakness of US ground forces is the long logistics line needed to support the heavily fuel dependent force. That's why hybrids, particularly diesel-hybrids do make sense for the Army, and they are moving in that direction.
If I were still driving to Logan Airport multiple times a week as I did for 25+ years, I'd own an electric in a heartbeat. Two reasons: Single occupancy in express lanes on 93, and preferred parking with charging stations at the airport. What's not to like?

However, for my current use, until electrics have 150+ mile range in an affordable package (read: not Tesla), then I'll stick with diesel. And I'd use diesel for longer drives regardless. My Jetta Wagon delivers 50 MPG at 80 MPH. I don't think a Prius will do that.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
As for lies about the Prius, search Google for "Prius myths." Then there was that VW press release in 2008 that reported getting higher than EPA mileage, which the "defeat device" did.

Bob Wilson
Ok, so your bringing up the past, from 2008?

Anyhow, agreed'd with Gofaster, I've driven them and feel like I am driving a toy and the cost of battery's on the older ones, yikes. I don't like EV cars yet as they don't suit my goals but maybe one day.

I'm like Inidigo wagon, just did a 2000 Km road trip and got 40 mpg there with my foot to the floor and 44 mpg back driving the same, :D and cornering with vigor, :p
 

wrc777

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Indiana
TDI
2014 Jetta TSI
I spot at least one inaccuracy in the initial post. Compressing the charge in an engine with a higher compression ratio is not a loss. You get nearly all of that energy back during expansion. The only energy lost is whatever gets converted to heat (it is a pretty small amount) and is lost through the cylinder wall. Diesels usually have cast iron blocks and/or liners so they will lose less of that heat than an aluminum block engine.

If the Prius bleeds charge back into the intake for an 8:1 compression ratio then the 13:1 ratio is only that high so it can be 8:1 in use although I suspect it uses the full 13:1 on the torque curve.

The biggest problem with the Prius other than the ugly body and vague handling is that you can buy non-hybrid cars cheaply enough that the payback on the hybrid system takes 100k miles or more.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
My issue with the Prius is you could just buy something like a Yaris for thousands less.

I'd buy the cheaper car, since the fuel consumption isn't going to be bad either way.
 

redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
The Prius uses a modified Atkinson engine which has variable valve timing to allow the intake charge to be pushed back into the intake.
I owned a 2002 Prius for 13 years and my son would still be driving it if that SUV had not smashed it.
As to crash worthiness he was uninjured, but the Prius gave it's all.
I replaced the battery after almost all of those 13 years and the car ran like new.
The battery cost less than the DPF change out on a CRD TDI. That would be at less than the 190,000 miles the Prius had on it at battery change.
I was looking at the Prius V van, but I wanted to be able to tow my 16' Scamp trailer.
Also SWMBO likes the TDI JSW so I bought a 2013 and let my son have the Prius.
The Prius is not a bad car, but not sporty or luxurious etc.
The total costs of non-scheduled maintenance was $200 for an inverter cooling pump and $300 for a used battery pulled out of a wrecked 2002 which had it's battery replaced with a new Toyota unit in 2011. Oh yeah I also replacet the 12 volt battery with a garden tractor battery about 5 years ago.
One would have to look long and hard to find a car that the total cost of ownership was as low over 13 years ans 190,000 miles +. Averaged 45 mpg on RUL low octane fuel and this has been cheaper than the Diesel fuel we are putting in the TDIs.
I went ahead and bought the second TDI since we had 230,000 miles on the 2009 and it was running OK, but we spent a LOT more maintaining it!
It was a tough decision as to which car I would pass to our son, but I figured that he was more likely to be able to keep the Prius running than the TDI and at less cost.
Oh Well!
 

tophergrace

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Location
Ohio
TDI
Alh
I think for most VW owners there isn't really this Prius (hybrid) vs TDI mentality. I am a fan of live and let live. By the way while your here, Welcome, I mean you are a guest right:)

For me i am a car enthusiast and like to modify things and I like that little fiddly thing in the center that allows me the choice of shifting (although sequential would be acceptable). To me a prius is a great commuter car but it's just not for me. I like some pazaaz, some torque and for me the prius is just so painfully bland. It's like eating a white bread sandwich. Yes it's food but bread stuffed between bread just doesn't do it for me.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
How much does it cost to replace those batteries??
Irrelevant if you never have to replace them. Battery packs in later Priuses (?) have been reliable. Honda had trouble with theirs. I'm not aware of battery packs being a maintenance issue in the Volt, either.

Compare that to P-D camshafts and lifters, and common-rail HPFP's and DPF's and intercoolers that freeze and EGR flapper valves that stop flapping and EGR filters that clog ... and dual-mass flywheels that seize up (Prius doesn't have this) ... those who live in glass houses ought not to cast stones! My TDI (P-D) was good ... but I've split up my daily-driver and motorcycle-hauler functions between two vehicles that each have a plain ordinary non-turbo port-injected non hybrid gas engine with timing chain driven OHC, and they've both needed nothing outside of oil changes. What's not there, can't break ...
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The Prius is a great car for people who don't like cars.

However, they are NOT infallible. We've done lots of batteries, water pumps (both mechanical and electric) and the inverters die enough now that even Dorman has tooled up to make replacements. They also often have catastrophic transmission failure (stuff breaks and chunks blow out) if they get stuck in the snow and someone gets a little aggressive trying to get them free. They are not very good in the snow, the traction control is VERY intrusive (it has to be) because of the massive amounts of torque at 0 RPM.

Luckily, people who own them, like to crash them. And they don't crash well. I'm not talking about occupant safety, I'm talking about collision repair ability. They total out easily. Which means there is an almost unending used parts source. Toyota won't sell individual battery cells, they make you buy the whole assembly. We NEVER do that. We simply fix the existing battery by removing the bad cell(s). I always found it strange that Toyota allowed for individual cell sensing, and individual fault codes for each one, and actually gives the ability to identify which one, yet won't sell any parts for them. :rolleyes:

They also mount them in such a manner that almost the entire rear of the interior needs to be removed for access.... which is dumb.





Once they are out, the cover comes apart (have to be careful, Toyota interior metal bits are supplied by the Ginsu Knife Co. Ltd.) and then you have to remove the bus bars/sensing strips (which are often corroded beyond repair) and then loosen the battery carriage and slide all the cells off until you get to the bad one.

We can repair them for a small fraction of what the dealer does, and generally get them going again for a few more years at least. I did ours about five years ago, IIRC. It had faults for two cells, but upon testing I found two others that were marginal.

The car is still abysmal to drive. I'd rather walk. :cool:

Honestly, for the money, a Yaris or Versa or similar is a better buy. Just as good (or bad) to drive, but cost THOUSANDS less and will still get decent fuel economy. Easily enough to overcome the cost difference.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Oilhammer I couldn't have said it better myself.
Also good point I don't know why but these things get crashed all the time, all the time.:eek:
Probably because they're bought by a lot of people who don't care about cars ... and therefore never figured out how to drive properly.

The Prius hasn't been the hit in the Canadian market that it was in the USA. We buy more Yarises and Corollas. And they're dented up a lot, too. There are lots and lots of beater beige Corollas where I live. LOTS of them.

The new funky taillight on the new 2016 Prius that extends well down into the bumper cover is going to be ... expensive.
 

redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
Sometimes you just need a tool. The Prius is a tool to get from point A to B.
It is not "fun" to drive, but it does get you around.
A Yaris might be as goos, I don't know.
I did the battery rebuild thing. I thought I had a good idea buying a rebuilt battery from Prius Rebuilders, but that was a mistake.
I ended up really working hard to get a refund, but ended up parting it out on Ebay a few cells at a time. Finally Prius Rebuilders ponyed up some of the money and between that and selling the good cells out of their battery I came out OK.
I lucked into a fairly new pull out. Too bad the car was totaled.
As to used parts cost a juck yard man told me that the used parts for the beat cars are cheap because no one needs them and there are more wrecked than parts needed.
Prius engines and transmissions are cheap VW engines and transmissions are expensive.
 

Jlaasf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Location
Ontario
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon TDI
I'm not sure what the argument of a Prius not being a fun car to drive (or, as you said, purely a too, to go from A to B). I agree nobody would ever buy one for the enjoyablility of the handling or "performance". It's 100% about economy.

But, I also wouldn't classify a TDI as an enjoyable car to drive either. I've owned them for 4 years now and can't say I've ever really thought about it as anything more than an A to B either. It has more functionality than an older Prius, but the newer Prius "wagon" has a decent amount of space.

I feel that both are primarily purchased for fuel economy. Both do that well. Personally, when I'm looking for a new , economic car to replace my TDI, I don't think I'm likely to buy another VW.
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
How much does it cost to replace those batteries??
About as much as rebuilding or replacing an automatic transmission. However, a small industry has sprung up rebuilding them from crashed Prius. The funny thing is the quality of the modules increased over time:
  • 2001-03 - uses 38 modules, first prismatic cells. Had relatively weak terminal seals so somewhat at risk from overheating. Yet the vast majority are still in service.
  • 2004-09 - uses 28 modules that have stronger terminals seals and better, internal cell-to-cell connections. These heat less and have lower internal resistance.
  • 2010-current - uses 28 modules that have even lower internal cell resistance.
  • 2016-future - uses 28 modules that are significantly smaller for the same capacity. These were the first made after the patents expired. Smaller modules for same capacity increases the area-to-volume ratio improving the air cooling. Now it located under the rear seat.
Some folks rebuild their own and we help with technical advice in the PriusChat forums. Dorman Industries sells rebuild battery packs. Toyota replacement packs are ~$2,200 with a core charge.

Bob Wilson
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I'm not sure what the argument of a Prius not being a fun car to drive (or, as you said, purely a too, to go from A to B). I agree nobody would ever buy one for the enjoyablility of the handling or "performance". It's 100% about economy.

But, I also wouldn't classify a TDI as an enjoyable car to drive either. I've owned them for 4 years now and can't say I've ever really thought about it as anything more than an A to B either. It has more functionality than an older Prius, but the newer Prius "wagon" has a decent amount of space.

I feel that both are primarily purchased for fuel economy. Both do that well. Personally, when I'm looking for a new , economic car to replace my TDI, I don't think I'm likely to buy another VW.
With the right additions/modifications TDIs are a lot of fun to drive. Good struts and shocks, rear bar, stickier tires, and some performance mods to the engine get you a quick, responsive, neutral handling car. I'd say without hesitation that my wagon is more fun to drive than my Miata was. And because our TDIs share platforms with GTIs there are lots of performance parts available.

Stock, not so much.
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
First off, we agree that there is very little overlap between Prius-style and TDI-style. This was evident in the "Meet the Volkswagen" YouTube commercial where 'noise' is equated to the quality of the VW. Prius people like quiet and smooth . . . a quality ride. Regardless, I'm a 'use the right tool for the right job' and have no problem with vehicles matched to the owner's requirements.

We will have to agree to disagree about this:
I spot at least one inaccuracy in the initial post. Compressing the charge in an engine with a higher compression ratio is not a loss. You get nearly all of that energy back during expansion. The only energy lost is whatever gets converted to heat (it is a pretty small amount) and is lost through the cylinder wall. Diesels usually have cast iron blocks and/or liners so they will lose less of that heat than an aluminum block engine.

If the Prius bleeds charge back into the intake for an 8:1 compression ratio then the 13:1 ratio is only that high so it can be 8:1 in use although I suspect it uses the full 13:1 on the torque curve.
. . .
Our experience with earlier diesels is they needed a heavy-duty battery and starter. We also had a diesel dozer at the farm that needed a pony motor to start. As attractive as it is to think of the compressed gas returning the energy of compression, it still takes a lot of energy for each compression stroke. In a four cylinder, four stroke, that last bit has to be handled by the starter for each cylinder without help from the others. That energy returned on the expansion is not available to compress the next charge.

In our heat engines, it is the 13 to 1 expansion ratio that cools the combustion gas and extracts energy. That is why the Prius engine achieves near diesel efficiency. Sad to say, there is still a throttle plate, computer controlled. But some of us are waiting for variable phase and duration intake valves that could eliminate the throttle plate and losses.

BTW, the control laws in the Prius work hard to eliminate partial power modes with the losses of a partially closed throttle plate. When possible, the engine is turned off and the electric drive continues to move the car. This means the mechanical drag of the engine, similar mechanical drag to a diesel engine, goes away. In contrast, an idling engine has to burn fuel for piston friction, crankshaft and connecting rod friction, oil pump, water pump, and valve train drag. So at a stop or at speeds under 42 mph, a Prius turns the engine off whenever it can. This is the Prius trick to high, urban fuel efficiency.

BTW, I hate 'hypermiling' especially when it involves turning off the engine while moving in a car not designed to do this. But it is a common trick hypermilers use with a manual transmission to 'bump' start the engine.

My issue with the Prius is you could just buy something like a Yaris for thousands less.

I'd buy the cheaper car, since the fuel consumption isn't going to be bad either way.
We did in 2001 with a Toyota Echo, a 'going for groceries' car for my wife. The 2001 Prius did not have cruise control, was a hideous color, and had an expensive and unwanted GPS. But after my wife added the Prius-like features, the Echo was half-way to the price of Prius. Still in 2001, we had a 1991 Toyota Camry with a manual transmission.

We lost the Camry in 2005 in a rain-slick street accident. So I bought a 2003 Prius that had cruise control, no GPS, and black. I flew to Fort Worth to pick it up and the first fill-up, got 39 MPG! But I also used that 800 mile trip to map out MPG vs mph:


Compared to the Echo, the Prius was (is) efficient, quiet, and the low center of gravity, great on clover leafs and turns. Turn the clock forward to 2009.

We got a great deal on a 2010 Prius and sold the Echo for $3,000 (the dealer only offered $2,700 on the 30,000 mile car.) Both Prius get 52 MPG but the 2010 does it 5 mph faster and better in very high and low temperatures.

The 2010 has an electronic AC compressor so the engine does not have to run for cold air. It also has exhaust heat recovery to warm up the engine faster for cabin heat and fuel efficiency.

The Prius is a great car for people who don't like cars.
We also hate paying more than necessary at the pump. Some of the past diesel prices compared to regular gas have been noted but not a whole lot we can do about it.

However, they are NOT infallible. We've done lots of batteries, water pumps (both mechanical and electric) and the inverters die enough now that even Dorman has tooled up to make replacements.
The inverter problems are related to a weak, inverter pump. Toyota has recalled both the 2001-03 and 2004-09 models to replace the inverter pump. Our experience is the 12V converter tends to fail first leading to having to jump the 12V. Then there is the risk of those who reverse the polarity on the jump . . .

. . . They also often have catastrophic transmission failure (stuff breaks and chunks blow out) if they get stuck in the snow and someone gets a little aggressive trying to get them free.
This is interesting. Do you have any photos or references?

We follow such things closely and the most common fault has been a shorted stator winding leading to eventual burn-out of the stator coils. There was one 2001-03 Prius that had a punctured transaxle pan and it welded the gears. But the stator coil short appears to have been addressed by better manufacturing . . . 2001 have more than the 2003 and the 2004-09 even less.

The reason I'm curious about 'chunks' is we know MG1 has a reported limit of 6,500 rpm, 2001-03, and 10,000 rpm, 2004-09. The threshold is reached by having the engine off and coasting down a steep hill above 42 mph. Two of us have 'tickled the dragon' so I've had our 2003 up to 49 mph and another Prius friend took his 2004-09 over 50 mph. Neither car 'grenaded'. So I'm interested in a Prius that has had 'chunks' come out.

I've repeated the experiment with the engine idling descending a tall hill in "N". As the speed increased over 42 mph, the engine idle speed increased to keep MG1 rpm limited to 6,500 rpm. Fascinating to watch.
. . . They are not very good in the snow, the traction control is VERY intrusive (it has to be) because of the massive amounts of torque at 0 RPM.

Luckily, people who own them, like to crash them. And they don't crash well. I'm not talking about occupant safety, I'm talking about collision repair ability. They total out easily. . . .
When the National Federation of the Blind and NHTSA passed a law to put noise makers on the Prius, I looked at the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) and found the rate of Prius fatal accidents is half that of the USA fleet. Part is due to the car absorbing crash energy and part is due to the conservative driving style of Prius owners. So let me share a driving stunt from July 2013:


I commuted to work using the 2010 over a route that avoided traffic, typically 4 lanes so following traffic could easily pass, and outside of high traffic hours, leaving at 5:00 AM. I used cruise control to maintain the speed at 25 mph and extended all drives to a minimum of one hour. When on descending slopes with the engine off, I shifted into "N", a manual version of freewheeling. This stunt took from July 4 to July 21 as part of my ordinary work day and weekend errands.

. . . Once they are out, the cover comes apart (have to be careful, Toyota interior metal bits are supplied by the Ginsu Knife Co. Ltd.) and then you have to remove the bus bars/sensing strips (which are often corroded beyond repair) and then loosen the battery carriage and slide all the cells off until you get to the bad one.

We can repair them for a small fraction of what the dealer does, and generally get them going again for a few more years at least. I did ours about five years ago, IIRC. It had faults for two cells, but upon testing I found two others that were marginal.

The car is still abysmal to drive. I'd rather walk. :cool:

Honestly, for the money, a Yaris or Versa or similar is a better buy. Just as good (or bad) to drive, but cost THOUSANDS less and will still get decent fuel economy. Easily enough to overcome the cost difference.
The key to Prius ownership is driving lots of miles each year. I'm typically in the 18-20,000 miles per year group, well above the 12-15,000 miles typically used in 'pay back' analysis. Prius taxis are a win-win. But it is also a cognitive style choice.

Compared to the 2001 Echo, the 2003 Prius remains a joy. It is quiet, fuel efficient, and takes turns like nobody's business. I almost rolled the Echo one day taking a familiar turn at Prius speed and just avoided going over the curb. My favorite trick when traveling at interstate speed approaching a clover leaf exit and followed by a tailgater is to not slow down or touch the brakes. Their expression when they realize 'going too fast for the turn' is a grin. We're Prius people, clever but not saints. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

ps. "Visiting" started in Feb 2009 when I came looking for MPG vs mph data in the forum and one of your members had what I needed. Although our rides differ, curiosity is universal and in my case, sympathy for the current troubles. So we include diesels, EVs and hybrids in our summary of Jeff Cobb's excellent, dashboard sales report.
 
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