Oil Pump chain survey

I hear ya about the Vag spec, as well as the Amsoil thing. I can only say that I've ran it for years, my brother as well and he's got 245k+ on his Jetta. But, the 2.0 PD is VERY sensitive to the proper spec. This didn't cause the issue with the bottom end giving out like this though, I agree with you. I don't know what it's issue is due to. I think the design is faulty. Bigger chain may have fixed it.

If his issue is cycling then it could be the motor mount. I had one on another car that you'd swear was an engine issue, internally. Ended up being the motor mount. Worth a shot?

oilhammer said:

Got the oil pan off, and the little chain guard...so far nothing obvious. The noise is kind of a dry bearing sound, not at all what I thought it would be. Sort of cycling a bit, changes with temp, worse when hot.

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Is it a bearing on one of the balance shafts?

I can't remember but I don't think there's any bearings in the balance shaft. It's just gear/mesh driven. Inside the little box there may be some bearings but I don't think they'd be big enough to audibly hear like that or if they'd even be accessable. Will be interesting to learn what he sees! Could be a proof positive of the issues that some of us realize exist.

hello people new member here,but certainly not new to vws.first tdi though .we just bought a 05 tdi 47k,tip.has some noise that i dont think is normal.like belt tensioner noise? has there been a defintive noise this chain/pump/balance box has been making?

Have it checked out.
Mine sounded like a pulley bearing on its way out.

vagpaul said:

hello people new member here,but certainly not new to vws.first tdi though .we just bought a 05 tdi 47k,tip.has some noise that i dont think is normal.like belt tensioner noise? has there been a defintive noise this chain/pump/balance box has been making?

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This is most likely your alternater pully bearing or your fan bearing.

Get it to the dealer ASAP. The standard warranty runs to 50K and I do not think it would be covered by the 60K powertrain warranty.

Oilhammer's got my car...

The car that is splayed open on the operating room table is mine...

I picked it up from a guy I know that deals in TDIs. I traded in my 2003 Jetta tdi because I wanted a bit more room for the family. The cars previous owner was a on the road salesman, he had service done at a dealership in Arkansas, but I haven't yet been able to verify they used the right oil. He knew that they needed the special spec. It had 80 something thousand when I bought it, and you could tell he didn't know much about the car other than it needed 'special oil'.

I noticed the noise when I went to look at the car, but having lived through numerous jetta's figured it was the alternator pulley, bad belt, timing belt roller etc; something related that would be easy to fix when I got it in my anxious hands. I spent the next 5 or so months trying to figure out what it was, but never nailed it down. I could never source the damn noise. It sounded like a bearing or a belt rubbing, and the pitch was directly related to engine rpm. I changed all the belts, alternator fan clutch/pulley, Oilhammer did the timing belt job, looked for egr piping leaks, nothing. Temperature sort of affected it, but the noise was always there. Then (ironically the night I got the car back from the timing belt job) I started to see the threads related to this darn oil pump chain. Grrr...

So, there it is. Hopefully oilhammer will figure out what the heck is going on and I can get my finicky beast back on the road.

oilhammer said:

OK, I just got my first case in here...

2005, pro date of August 2004, engine number 007 872.

I will be posting some pics of what I find. Car has 96k miles on it. The noise is quite pronounced from the oil pan area...and when I put my stethescope on it, it sounded really, really bad... like a blender full of marbles.

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I had a customer stop by Wednesday in his B5.5 TDI. I was outside when he pulled in and he didn't shut the engine off. Sounded like crap. I mentioned it and he said he knows it sounds bad at idle, but is running fine. Marbles in a blender is a good description. I pointed him to this thread. He recently had a turbo replaced under warranty (now 65K on the car), and is going to go back to the same dealer and see what they'll do for him.

Got a quick break, thought I would check in here. Recovering the refrigerant now...this job is just not easily performed with the front end in service mode. Going to take it completely off and lay it off to the side.

The whole front and whole bottom of the engine need to come apart. This would be barely more work than a timing belt in the A4 cars, but on the B5 its engine mounting makes this much more labor-intensive. However other than the silly Allen bolt (just one!) and nut on the bellhousing into the back of the oil pan this job [so far] has come apart quite easily.

I will try and post some pics tomorrow once I get everything totally apart and I try and figure out what is what.

Hey Indigo by all means let us all know what his outcome is.

See this is what's difficult. For instance, the guy had a turbo replaced (mine had to get replaced when the thing starved for oil due to the chain failure). It could be that the turbo is what's making the noise, maybe they screwed something up. If that's isolated out of the picture, then it could be a simple bearing on the alternator or other pulley. If the vehicle is "rough" when you "sit" inside the car, or if you shift to drive and it's rough while stopped...then you have an issue that we're talking about here. A bad pulley or bearing in the pulley won't cause this issue. That being said, if a car had any mechanical work done to it, IE oil pan was off, then this is something to be concerned about.

Again, I don't want to make everyone fearful at all. Most do not have to worry, there's other reasons for the various noises. But I do want to stress that if the car is feeling odd, behavior appears abnormal at idle or standstill, then you should be doing something to get it looked at if you're not a wrench monkey like some of us here.

There was no way I could have avoided my specific issue. Remember, the dealer had touched it under warranty. THe bottom line is WHY did the ORIGINAL failure occur. Nobody, at all, has been able to give me a likely answer about this. I think it's a design flaw until someone shows me different.

I still don't think (because of this weak chain) that the car can handle more torque than out of the box. But I'll still get mine reflashed by Jeff if the dealer has to reflash the OEM back onto it to get it running.

OK, got this all apart..and I found what the problem is.

The hex shaft and the second balancer shaft are both wallered out, pretty bad. The oil pump itself appears fine. And here is why [I think] this happened, and is going to continue to happen.

The hex drive looks like a pencil, about 3 inches long. A good 50% if it, in the center, rides in the oil pump itself. But the end of it, the part that goes into the balance shaft, is only about 5/8" long. That tiny bit cannot adequately carry the load to drive the oil pump...and it fatigues and start to get loose. As the tolerances open up, it only gets worse and worse, and in short order. Eventually it would have gotten so loose it would have simply rounded itself out and no longer been able to spin the oil pump.

I should also add that both the chain tensioner guide and the slack side guide show some pretty serious wear. Not enough to by itself be cause for a tear down at 100k miles, but I very seriously doubt they could make it much past 150k miles before the tensioner's ability to hold proper tension on the chain is maxed out due to worn guides. Also, these worn guides will cause a slow and steady drift in time for the balance shafts, which in turn will cause vibration.

The only permenent fix for this I fear is installing the BGW crankshaft and doing away with the balancer shaft module altogether. Otherwise, looks like the 100k PM on the BHW engine will set you back about $3k

So if anyone in Europe can source the other crank, PLEASE let us know!

Damn it...

You all have me seriously concerned here. I bought this car with the understanding and intention that it would last me for quite a bit of mileage without excessive repair costs. NOW you're telling me/us that possibly, a 100k service could be in excess of $2000. That's outrageous. This whole scenario has me considering getting rid of the PD, having only owned it for less than 3 months. Absolutely astounding. There's no way I could get my money out of this car.

oilhammer said:

The only permenent fix for this I fear is installing the BGW crankshaft and doing away with the balancer shaft module altogether. Otherwise, looks like the 100k PM on the BHW engine will set you back about $3k

So if anyone in Europe can source the other crank, PLEASE let us know!

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But, isn't the drawback of the BGW crank in a BHW more vibration?

So what at a minimum are you repairing/replacing to fix the problem in this car? Everything to do with the chain and balancers? and what is the final cost?

Maybe we need a guinea pig to source all the parts and then perform an auto to manual transplant

Update. Here is the parts list:

balancer shaft/oil pump assembly:
03G-103-295-A $1324.88

chain tensioner:
03G-115-124 $52.02

chain:
03G-115-230 $42.37

sprocket:
03G-103-333-E $13.50

bolts:
N-903-554-05 .42 each (4)

Plus a front crank seal and oil.

Also, I need a special tool to properly set and time the balancer shaft module, which is T10255 and so far I have not been able to locate one.

I figure this job is about 12 hrs worth of work. There are no labor times published for this that I can find.

That's ridiculous. For something that was terribly designed. Should be VWs problem, not ours. Especially if we're doing everything BTB.

It sure sounds to me that VW needs to issue some beefed up parts or some independant could create those improved parts that VW failed to make in the first place. Reading between the lines, it looks like the main culprit is simular to a fan cage on a Maytag Dryer. In essense its nearly the same symptom. (I know, I just replaced this on my dryer.) The hex hole on the fan cage rounded out and then it made a mess of noise. It sure sounds like the parts involved are under engineered. Its not like replacing a $16 fan cage. In this case it sounds like the sprocket is causing the issue by not being beefy enough.

This sounds like a recall item to me, particularly if you can make a good case about it being a potential safety and or emission item.

So precisely where we were coming from with the fact that the whole setup is just plain weak. Hmm, and my presumption about the chain guides being the cause for some of the problems is likely correct.

Like I said previously, once a groove is started, it can be very bad because the chain can become misaligned due to just the guides, hence chewing slowly at the sprockets.

The problem comes back to whether or not VW can claim that correct oil can prevent this type of problem. The way you guys are making it sound, it's just sort of something can happen over time from use. Correct oil has nothing to do with this, as the reasoning for the spec is in a different area of the engine. I wonder if VW, if they did extensive testing, saw the same problem and will just chalk it up to wear and tear. I mean, that's a pretty expensive wear, though, in addition to the TB/water pump service that is supposed to happen around the same sort of time frame. What options do we have as consumers to see that this is rectified? I am still within my 60k warranty. Should I shove the car to a VW dealer and tell them I want them to look at the oil pump chain without them laughing at me? Or claiming I used the wrong oil? I don't have sufficient documentation that the correct oil has been used for its entire life, but I do know I'M using 505.01 spec oil. I just see us getting screwed hard in every way related to this problem.

The problem here is clearly NOT the chain, guides, or sprockets, although the chain guides are worn some. The problem, the noise, is the wallered out hex shaft and hex hole in the second balance shaft.

This hex shaft is TINY. Smaller than a pencil. 6mm to be precise, as a 6mm socket fits over the end of it. Go pick up a 6mm six-point socket...that is how small the oil pump drive shaft is!

If you ask me it needs to be at least 50% larger, or have some sort of spline drive like an input shaft on a transmission or something.

Right now we can only hope VAG has seen the problem and perhaps the new balancer shaft/oil pump assembly has a larger beefier shaft. It would actually be very simple to redesign that part to be larger. The balance shaft itself has PLENTY of material, and the oil pump would only need minor changes to accommodate a larger shaft...or have a 'stepped' shaft that was larger on the balance shaft side, as that was the only part that is worn....the oil pump end is fine.

Oh I agree here. I have documented proof for my TDI that the correct oil was used its entire life so far (dealer invoices with the correct part numbers). I have had blackstone labs do UOA every 5k now for the last 10k and will do so as long as I own this car. I would keep this car long term, if there is an improved part developed or VW gives us an "uber" warranty for this issue. This simply should not be an issue on a car of this kind. Perhaps in part this is why VW went from the Castrol TXT 505.01 to the Castrol Professional OE 5w30 505.01 and the introduction of the new long life oils. It is still a band aid as this really should have been tested further than it apparently was.

That's all well and good, aside from the fact that serious money has to be forked out to get the beefier stuff (if, in fact, it has been redesigned). The next question on all of our minds, is when will it happen? Is it a warranty issue if you've still got one?

In reality, the manufacturer is off the hook beyond the warranty period. This reminds me of the crank keyway problem in my 81 Dasher- poorly designed, which led to costly repairs. I have doubts that VW will fess up to the problem. The resale value is going to take a hit- sadly. My desire for a B5V is not what it used to be. Hopefully OH can devise a solution. This is sort of like the DM flywheel, but worse. Replacing the crank, if possible, would be the way to go. My condolences to all those effected.

If you still have a warranty, it should be covered under the power train, since it is not a maintainance/wear item and is a internally lubricated part

Engine Build Date: 01-17-05

Production Number: BHW 017340

Qty Built? Number: 4765

Vehicle build date: 01-05

No problems with the chain - so far at ~55K miles

Also, "POLAND" is cast into the head. The car was built in Emden according to the VIN.

daedalus said:

Engine Build Date: 01-17-05

Production Number: BHW 017340

Qty Built? Number: 4765

No problems with the chain - so far at ~55K miles

Also, "POLAND" is cast into the head. The car was built in Emden according to the VIN.

Where do I find the build date of the car?

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Wouldn't that be on the door jamb sticker?

Like I said, the entire assembly/setup to make this balancer part of the operation is poor and weak.

His problem is the shaft itself has worn to a point that it's out of balance "itself"! That causes serious problems, including noise. For a normal guy looking at stuff like that it may not seem like it's all that bent, but in this car, every slight out of balance thing does cause noise and vibration.

For my issue it was differnet than someone else's, but still part of the overall balancer system. The chain itself and guides are perfectly fine....to run just the oil pump. The problem is that it's not doing only that, it's running much more. If you looked at the design of this you would see three main things need to change that would make this work. The keyway/end shaft of the balancer itself (larger size), chain (larger) with appropriate sprocket, and the chain guides.

If you're out of warranty you can only driver her like you own it, and just hope you won't have problems. If you start hearing noises, then worry.

The oil really has nothing to do with this overall issue at all. I believe everyone here with the problem has used the proper oil. I used the OE stuff and then switched to Amsoil. Again, the oil isn't the issue because many have only used the OE.

If you are in warranty you still are out of luck until there's a problem OR you have a TSB in hand to have them change the parts out to the new ones. Which there are none of, yet, that I know of. Oilhammer would know better on that one.

O.H. let us know what happens!!

truman said:

Wouldn't that be on the door jamb sticker?

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It sure was - thanks!

I modified my original post to show a vehicle build date of 01-05. They must have been in a real hurry that month. My engine build date is 01-17-05 and the car was built the same month. That only leaves 14 days to get the engine from Poland to Emden, build the car, QA (they do QA I hope ) and call it done. I bought the car from Chris at Langhorne in August '05.

So here we are...could I get the car up this weekend, use a (doctor's) stethoscope and pit to the oil pan to see if I hear the rattling? The slightly increased vibrations at idle in drive have me a bit worried (though they are really intermittent). Would that be enough to take it to the dealer?

Sam Stag can get me the SST. Under $30 delivered to my door, was special order (not on their site). 10 to 14 days to get it.

The noise is pretty obvious. It will be loudest (with stethescope) on the oil pan, front of engine, driver's (left) side. It gets worse when warm. I listened to mine last night after a short drive, and it still is as quiet as it was when new. Nothing like the marbles in a blender sound this one in the shop was making.

Oil is NOT the issue with this hex shaft. This is not a lubricated part, it just spins and connects two pieces, there is no sliding back and forth really, no 'friction' to speak of.

It's not going to hurt, if it's within warranty, to take it in.

Explain to them the issues and you'd like this or that specifically looked at. Even ask them if they can show you it when they have the pan off.