New Polo confirmed for the USA, with TDI

rcracer said:

...the Polo with getting close to 80 MPG, one could imagine that this becomes an incongruous comparison ...

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There has never been a 80mpg Polo. Never. Anywhere.

The Lupo 1.2 TDI had an 80 mpg rating, but that was a much smaller car with extreme weight savings... magnesium parts... thin glass... 41hp in "eco" mode...
The Audi A2 1.2 TDI was similar, just a bit larger and expensive, because of the aluminum body.

The most efficient Polo ever is the current Bluemotion, which gets a 62 mpg (US) Euro rating.

So... one of the reasons Americans can't buy 80 mpg VWs is probably because Europeans can't either, and when they could a few years ago most didn't.

ymz said:

My thinking is that all the emission controls needed to pass the CARB thresholds raise the manufacturing costs to the point that a diesel couldn't realistically be offered in a budget-priced car...

Yuri.

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Possibly. Basically it would not be cost effective for VW to make a TDI engine 50 state legal specifically for the Polo.

The current 1.4 TDI Polo only gets 22% better fuel economy than the Jetta TDI according to the German VW web site.

rcracer said:

... would be nice to have an 60+ mpg veedub

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we can only beLIEve in hopeful change

chudzikb said:

VW has said in the past that it is committed to bringing diesel versions of all of the cars it sells here. However, I will believe it when I see it as well...

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As someone who has had a deposit on JSW TDi for over 6 months, I think it's just a rumor that even that car will be introduced here!!.

bum944 said:

As someone who has had a deposit on JSW TDi for over 6 months, I think it's just a rumor that even that car will be introduced here!!.

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+1; my JSW TDI manual order just turned 6 months today. I went to another VW dealer today and drove a manual sedan, just to remind myself why I ordered one - sweet! He had about 10 TDI sedans and was ready to deal below MSRP. No JSW TDI's in sight, he said. VW made a major error in estimates of the type of car US buyers wanted. All the old data about station wagons not selling well is out the window. The station wagon is the new 'CUV'.

lbhskier37 said:

Hear the news today? Toyota is now offering rebates on the Prius. Its not the diesel, its car sales in general.

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Dude, you are missing the point. Toyota never intended to make $$ of the Prius. It's an introduction of a new technology. It was perceived well and it will take off and make $$ later for Toyota.
Your thinking mirrors GMs corporate strategy.

and about the Polo , when I see it , I believe it. and definitely won't be a TDI

Dimitri16V said:

Dude, you are missing the point. Toyota never intended to make $$ of the Prius. It's an introduction of a new technology. It was perceived well and it will take off and make $$ later for Toyota.
Your thinking mirrors GMs corporate strategy.

and about the Polo , when I see it , I believe it. and definitely won't be a TDI

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About your signature. What would the econmist say about a represntitive republic such as ours?

have you seen the new BMW commercials?

they are trying to hype the diesel....

maybe that will help TDI awareness and sales...

So, a 70+ mpg Polo is doable, methinks. With a 1.2l 3cyl CR TDI derived out of the upcoming 1.6l 4cyl, and some (but not extreme) weight-saving. Add eco (read narrow) tires, and an eco-oriented engine tuning.

The emmisions may not be a problem at all. Emmisions limits are specfied in grams/Km (or the imperial equivalen), which means that a car that has less exhaust (from the small engine) may actually have dirtier exhaust and still pass. I'm pretty confident that with the upcoming generation of CR TDI, the car will not need any NOx scrubbing, and may not even need DPF.

However, with such an engine, the power will not be the problem, but low-end torque may be. The car may be a nuisance to start from a standstill if it has a manual 5 sp. box. The 7sp. DSG would sure fix the problem, but how constly? We'll see.
Anyway, a 70+ mpg Polo is quite a few years out even in EU, so don't hold your collective breaths.

German_1er_diesel said:

So... one of the reasons Americans can't buy 80 mpg VWs is probably because Europeans can't either, and when they could a few years ago most didn't.

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They didn't because those cars were too expensive, like you well point out. Maybe the time will come in a couple years to try again.

wolfskin said:

So, a 70+ mpg Polo is doable, methinks. With a 1.2l 3cyl CR TDI derived out of the upcoming 1.6l 4cyl, and some (but not extreme) weight-saving. Add eco (read narrow) tires, and an eco-oriented engine tuning.

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Some weight-saving? The new Polo is going to be longer, wider and taller than the current one. Is it really going to be lighter?
Narrow tires? The current Bluemotion has them.

wolfskin said:

However, with such an engine, the power will not be the problem, but low-end torque may be. The car may be a nuisance to start from a standstill if it has a manual 5 sp. box. The 7sp. DSG would sure fix the problem, but how constly? We'll see.

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The DSG is still a good deal heavier than the manuals. Case in point: The current Polo, Golf, Golf Plus, Touran, Jetta, Caddy, Sharan and Passat Bluemotions are all manual-only.
If the DSG would make them more efficient, they would offer it.

Personally, i don't care. If I am in the market for a small car, a Fit would do. VW can kiss my a$$ !!

Dimitri16V said:

Personally, i don't care ...

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... might agree though, it would be nice getting, 60+ MPG

Dimitri, if you want a small car and a Fit, you should act soon, possibly even last year, because Honda is making the Fit larger in '09, and it will probably end up CR-V sized eventually.

I'm glad I bought a 1996 B4V TDI last year. Maintenance won't ever exceed the cost of a new car. I'll wait for the next round of technology to develop.
Diesel hybrid?
Electric?
Get back on my bicycle.

DickSilver said:

... I'll wait for the next round of technology to develop.
Diesel hybrid? Get back on my bicycle.

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+1 on that for sure

mavapa said:

Dimitri, if you want a small car and a Fit, you should act soon, possibly even last year, because Honda is making the Fit larger in '09, and it will probably end up CR-V sized eventually.

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Kind of like the Odyssey. The first gen Odyssey was tiny.

My 06 Jetta has to last me until I can get a EV with solar panels. I currently drive 45miles round trip and the volt is only rated for 40. (Don't want to use any gas)

Blue_Hen_TDI said:

Kind of like the Odyssey. The first gen Odyssey was tiny.

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Even Civic and Accord. The current Civic is larger than the original Accord Nwe Fit is not much bigger than before.

Dimitri16V said:

Personally, i don't care. If I am in the market for a small car, a Fit would do. VW can kiss my a$$ !!

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May I suggest a VAZ-2101??? Or the Zastava Koral? Based on fine Italian designs.

German_1er_diesel said:

The DSG is still a good deal heavier than the manuals. Case in point: The current Polo, Golf, Golf Plus, Touran, Jetta, Caddy, Sharan and Passat Bluemotions are all manual-only.
If the DSG would make them more efficient, they would offer it.

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I realize that, but that's partly because it's designed for much heavyer and stronger car.
What I was thinking was that VW might make a variant of the DSG adapted for smaller cars, so lighter.
The reason I think the DSG would be necessary is due to low torque of the small engine the car would be uncomfortable to start off the line. With a 7 speed gearbox, the first gear would be very low, so would make the start easy, and the rapid shifts would make the car quite enjoyable to drive in city traffic.
Add stop-start ablity for great city performance, and it's a gem!

wolfskin said:

Add stop-start ablity for great city performance, and it's a gem!

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A gem that will require expensive transmission fluid changes at 40,000 mile intervals... (if not more often...)

Yuri.

Crash safet, emissions,bla bla.. In 2006 the local v dub dealer said only 30 percent of import dealer fleet CAN be of the compression combustion types.. I think there is a gov/lobbyist generated silent restriction of sorts.. Anyone else hear that one?

wolfskin said:

I realize that, but that's partly because it's designed for much heavyer and stronger car.

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It's also physically bigger itself. Six or seven gear pairs as opposed to five (or six), an extra shaft, extra clutch assembly, spur gears to drive the input shafts from the dual clutch, a circulating pump for the wet clutch, extra liter or more of heavy transmission fluid.

A DSG style transmission is always going to be bigger and heavier than a standard shift with the same ratios. Likewise, if you assume identical parts quality, the standard will have greater longevity and require less maintenance over its lifetime, conditions I feel must be provided for when determining a transmission's overall impact on automobile energy efficiency.

2td said:

Crash safet, emissions,bla bla.. In 2006 the local v dub dealer said only 30 percent of import dealer fleet CAN be of the compression combustion types.. I think there is a gov/lobbyist generated silent restriction of sorts.. Anyone else hear that one?

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That was when the TDI was only 45-state legal (in 2006 like you mentioned). The reason had to do with a limit on the emissions BIN the TDI was certified for at the time (I don't have the understanding to elaborate any further... but you can search this forum...). That's no longer true with the new 50-state legal CR TDIs. VW should be able to import and sell as many as they want...

What happened to the VW 1 liter car that was supposed to be coming to the US in 2010? You know, the one that gets 235 MPG.

Is that still on track, or was that a load of bunk, as I expected?

donDavide said:

Even Civic and Accord. The current Civic is larger than the original Accord Nwe Fit is not much bigger than before.

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The current Fit is larger than the original Accord. By a lot.

lbhskier37 said:

Hear the news today? Toyota is now offering rebates on the Prius. Its not the diesel, its car sales in general.

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http://jalopnik.com/5135675/where-are-automakers-stashing-unsold-cars

Nice photos that show where automakers are stashing their backstock of unsold cars. Photos of cars stacked up in port of arrival in the USA, cars parked around test tracks, cars parked outside factories . . .

Mike_04GolfTDI said:

What happened to the VW 1 liter car that was supposed to be coming to the US in 2010? You know, the one that gets 235 MPG.

Is that still on track, or was that a load of bunk, as I expected?

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Demand for that evaporated when fuel dropped below $2 a gallon, just like falling demand for the Chevy Volt.

MPLSTDI said:

My 06 Jetta has to last me until I can get a EV with solar panels. I currently drive 45miles round trip and the volt is only rated for 40. (Don't want to use any gas)

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Not to seem like a troll, but how long do you think you are going have to wait for an EV only car that can do round trip of 45 miles, and run at least enough heat and fan power to keep your windows defrosted in a Minnesota Winter? Much less have heat in the cabin. Not to mention that ALL current battery technology loses capacity with temperature.

At -20 to -30F in Northern WI I have to virtually bubble wrap my diesels radiator (truck and car) to make sure I have heat to keep my windows clear for any drive longer then a few miles. Heck, my former gas cars and trucks all wore cardboard fronts for the same reason.

Its about 4 inches longer and 50lbs heavier.
http://jalopnik.com/5039101/2009-honda-fit-first-drive