Best Diesel Fuel Additive?

loggin

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Originally posted by J. Thomas Bentzen:
I typically use:

4ozs of Amsoil pure synthetic injector oil.

TB
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How does "4ozs of Amsoil pure synthetic injector oil" work? That is, what are the benefits, etc..of using it? TooSlick? Any comments on this usage?

AMSOIL Synthetic 2-Cycle Injector Oil is compatible with other synthetic and petroleum TC-W3 type oils and may be mixed with them. It is recommended for use with "gasoline fuels only".

http://www.amsoil.com/products/aio.html
 

mailman

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Can't say if it's the best, but I can verify that the "one-shot" stanadyne is effective. I've had no starting difficulty at all this winter, with the coldest one being 2degF (car parked outdoors ... brrr). Fuel economy has remained respectable at 48-50 mpg (70% highway driving) on Texaco diesel with the factory recommended Stanadyne dilution ratio of 8oz to a tank of fuel. I can't complain.
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
From the Primrose PDF:

An important component of Power-Master is a special emulsifier that disperses condensed moisture. Condensed water in fuels is a major cause of rust, icing in cold weather and the growth of microorganisms in warm weather. Operation of diesel engines is noticeably improved when corrosion and growth of bacteria are prevented.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does "disperses" mean?

Where does the water get dispersed to?

Condensed moisture is free water. Power-Master will dissolve free water into the fuel. That moisture will now go through the fuel pump and injectors. Water, in any form, will cause corrosion, a leading cause of pump failures.

Free water is handled acceptably by the OEM fuel filter separator, unless it's swamped with water. This has happened as reported on these forums and there is nothing reasonable to protect against gross fuel contamination like that. If you were getting free water to your injectors, the engine would run like a gasser with a spark plug wire or two that were off.

With an emulsifier, free water will be dissolved and sent to the pump & injectors, instead of remaining segregated at the water separator.
 

dieseldorf

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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Originally posted by Boundless:


... instead of remaining segregated at the water separator.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How come I NEVER have seen any evidence of water in my OE "water separator" if it is really doing its job?


Even after two years of driving covering 40+k miles???
 

Boundless

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Here, from AMOCO, and we know AMOCO makes some of the best diesel fuel out there:

* A demulsifier to help shed water and reduce potential corrosion and performance problems
caused by wet fuel.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And if you search the other fuel companies, they are doing the same.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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Boundless, agreed - - 100%. As the Big Guy has stated clearly, on numerous occasions: demulsify demulsify demulsify...right up to the point where it is delivered to the vehicle. All demulsification should take place prior to the fuel being put in the car. At that point, any residual water should be carried safely thru the fuel system with the assistance of an emulsifier. You know he has stated over and over that there is too much vibration, tipping, tilting, mixing, blending etc. in the average vehilce for a water separator to be effective over 10s of thousands of miles.

George, how did that sound?
 

AutobahnTDI

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Originally posted by godlike242:
call me a sucker for believing the manufactuer, but i am a fan of stanadyne..
the car goes just as well as with the redline stuff, and is a little cheaper..

that, and it's the one VW has blessed..

http://www.vw.com/SP/pdf/diesel.pdf
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Great link! However, how is the average consumer supposed to know about this? Where did you find it?

VW knows best...
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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rob, a few people have said they can purchase the Stanadyne additive at their local auto parts store. I and many other have ordered from dieselpage.com (??) in TX. They are very good and seem to have the entire Stanadyne product line and their pricing is fair.

Your favorite VW dealer may have the product as well.
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by dieseldorf:
Boundless, agreed - - 100%. As the Big Guy has stated clearly, on numerous occasions: demulsify demulsify demulsify...right up to the point where it is delivered to the vehicle. All demulsification should take place prior to the fuel being put in the car. At that point, any residual water should be carried safely thru the fuel system with the assistance of an emulsifier. You know he has stated over and over that there is too much vibration, tipping, tilting, mixing, blending etc. in the average vehilce for a water separator to be effective over 10s of thousands of miles.

George, how did that sound?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Amazing.....
All those diesel engine manufacturers and diesel engine powered vehicle manufacturers and all those diesel powered whatever & everything providers apparently still install water separators for some seemingly odd reason.

Any idea what that could be?

If those diesel providers only knew that the water separators really weren't working, they could eliminate the hardware and gain a cost improvement. George, you should tell your these manufacturers right away.

George, could you post a few of your letters or other correspondence to your clients on your recommendation to eliminate the water separators? Delete the names and anything that might identify a client, just let us see how you recommend that water separators are ineffective and are not needed.

dieseldorf, I know what the Big Guy (aka: George) has posted. And I disagree with it without reservation. It is also obvious that the concensus of the diesel powered industry disagrees... unanimously. Don'tcha think MB, VW, GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, Volvo, Yanmar, Toyota, Chysler, Saab, GE, Deere, Isuzu, Komatsu,Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar, Nissan, and every other diesel engine/vehicle manufacturer would know this and would eliminate the water separator if it were not useful?



Sherlock Holmes said, "The best place to hide something is out in the open."

Every diesel out there is accompanied by a water separator. There's gotta be a reason.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Boundless, you know just as well as I do that the OE automotive separators will catch larger amounts of water but appear to be unable to deal with the tiny amounts of water that is taken on during routine fillups.


So there!
 

AutobahnTDI

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no more TDI :(
Originally posted by dieseldorf:
rob, a few people have said they can purchase the Stanadyne additive at their local auto parts store. I and many other have ordered from dieselpage.com (??) in TX. They are very good and seem to have the entire Stanadyne product line and their pricing is fair.

Your favorite VW dealer may have the product as well.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well actaully what I meant was how did he find the link to that document.

Thanks for the other info though.
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by robgti:
Well actaully what I meant was how did he find the link to that document.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know and why are you concerned about that?

FWIW, I have seen that little pamphlet at the dealership. There is also a TSB on the Stanadyne additive.
 

RiceEater

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Dieseldorf,
"There is too much vibration, tipping, tilting, mixing, blending etc. in the average vehilce for a water separator to be effective over 10s of thousands of miles."

I believe George has taken and passed a course in surface chemistry and would not say this. I think the record needs to be amended as to where this statement comes from. It is not something George, Boundless or I would say. If it is something that you said, then you should take credit for it.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Originally posted by RiceEater:
I think the record needs to be amended as to where this statement comes from. It is not something George, Boundless or I would say. If it is something that you said, then you should take credit for it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RiceEater, I guess I am going to have to disappoint you. George and I have chatted via telephone a number of times and that's what I came away with. George may have phrased it a bit different but that's what I heard him say and also re-enforces his recommendation that we should be running an emulsifier in our vehicles….not a demulsifier.

Why are you uncomfortable with that?
 

RiceEater

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Dieseldorf,
"The OE automotive separators will catch larger amounts of water but appear to be unable to deal with the tiny amounts of water that is taken on during routine fillups."

is a very intelligent thing to say. Maybe, as you suggest, reflects a lot of insight you've gain from conversations with George. However, the former statement is just plain wrong.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Originally posted by RiceEater:
Dieseldorf,
"The OE automotive separators will catch larger amounts of water but appear to be unable to deal with the tiny amounts of water that is taken on during routine fillups."

is a very intelligent thing to say. Maybe, as you suggest, reflects a lot of insight you've gain from conversations with George. However, the former statement is just plain wrong.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I didn't realize that was the statement you were upset about. You are correct. That is my opinion based upon my observation everytime I drain my water separators over the past 7 years.
 

RiceEater

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Dieseldorf, you have been fortunate to have bought your fuel from very responsible suppliers. I wish that can be true for much more people. Because it isn't true for so many people and consequences can be so catastrophic VWAG engineers as well as the authors of tdifaq 7.b deem it necessary that an appropriately sized oil water separator is installed and that it is checked for water regardless of prior history. I consider ANY sign of water is reason enough to have a long conversation with my fuel supplier. I truly don't understand the deep felt need to have water appear in your fuel filter. That is beyond me.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Originally posted by RiceEater:
I truly don't understand the deep felt need to have water appear in your fuel filter. That is beyond me.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RiceEater, may I share this with you? I had an Olds diesel long ago and got to be pals with the diesel mechanic at the Olds dealership. He was very excited about the product (this was long before all the problems began) but was also very intense about water contamination in diesel fuel...He recommended, knowing how I liked to care for my cars, that we install a water separator. So we did. I think it was a Stanadyne unit but am not certain of that. It was kind of square glass bowl that attached to a metal mounting plate. Any water in the system was HUGELY obvious. And ya know what? I saw water in there all the time. Granted, it wasn't a lot of water but you could virtually always see some amount of water in the glass bowl.

This is why I have so little faith in the OE VW "water separator". I used to be really good about checking it but it always turned into a mess unless the filter was removed from the car, there was never any water to be seen...nothing and then I got tired of checking it.

We know there is water in the fuel and I personally don't believe the OE VW separator is capable of stopping it. I view VW's "water separator" as a fuel filter and that's it. Some have said the VW separator will catch large amounts of water. I personally don't know if that's true. OTOH, what is happening to small amounts of water? Where is it going? I think it's passing right thru the engine.

I hope that makes sense 'cause that's my perspective and my perspective alone.
 

RiceEater

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When you specify to a manufacturer that you need an oil water separator to remove something like 100 ppm water they will sell you something that will remove less than 10 ppm and put it in a glass bowl so that you will see it. Whereas VWAG engineers have designed a much smaller separator that will remove >1000 ppm as a water alert system; it is not big enough to contain a large amount of water (The >1000 ppm is my number based on eyeballing. I have not made any measurements or run any calculations other than mental). It is there to alert you to the presence of water. With your experience, does it need to be larger? Some would argue that it is right-sized, especially the accountant-minded.

Postscript: Yes, you are right. Something like ~100 ppm water, maybe less, can go right through the OEM oil water separator to the pump/engine without any trace or indication. This is a very small amount and does not do much damage. You would find total agreement with the idea of the less water the better. But this is a very difficult amount of water to deal with.

[ January 28, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: RiceEater ]
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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Originally posted by RiceEater:
It is there to alert you to the presence of water.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How is it alerting me to the presence of water? We have no sort of alarm system and unless I check it weekly, how would I know there is water in it?

Originally posted by RiceEater:
With your experience, does it need to be larger?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Honestly, I cannot answer that question since I am not aware of its capability.
 

300sdl

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FPPF can be found in most truckstops.

I've been using Redline 85+ for about 450/550K miles and it seems to work well. It also addresses the water problem.
 

loggin

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Originally posted by 300sdl:
FPPF can be found in most truckstops.

I've been using Redline 85+ for about 450/550K miles and it seems to work well. It also addresses the water problem.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FUEL POWER can be found @ most stops...8oz. bottle...treats 240 gallons. Then there's Total Power The Ultimate Winter Diesel Treatment. A 32 oz. Bottle treats 250 gallons.

==========================
fuel additives
to add or not to add?
that is the question

the role of fuel additives
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
dieseldorf,

You have been very lucky in your fuel purchases.

You have no idea as to the water content that is going into your fuel tank. Past experience is no indication of present or future water content of the fuel you buy.

Your TDI would run like a gasser with a loose spark plug wire if whole water were being sent out to the injectors. Water has much lower energy content than fuel.
Does it run like that? If not, you have not had whole water problems. If whole water gets sent out to the injectors, the filter/sep was overwhelmed and whole water was sent en mass to the pump ...... Not possible, or better yet, not feasible, to prepare for this and continue to run. This happens after re-fueling and taking on enormous amounts of water. Can't be prevented.

And you need to understand that prior to the high pressure injection stage, the fuel must have been through the feedpump. The feed pump will whip any water/fuel into a localized emulsion.... It would be highly unlikely that whole water will ever make it through the feedpump and to the high pressure stage as whole water!!! ..... unless there was gross water contamination... that engine ain't gonna run again until it is drained and purged. That ain't the objective of a fuel sep or additives.

Notice that the fuel passes through the filter separator before it passes through the feedpump...... for a good reason. Suction side water sep is much better.


Also, be aware of the differences in free (whole) water and suspended (dissolved and/or emulsified) water.

If a separator can stop large amounts of water, it can stop the small amounts. Whole water that is. It isn't like a window screen that can stop the really big bugs but passes the little ones. The greater volumes of water a separator is subjected to, the greater the amount of water that will pass. Again, whole water. Separators have ratings in percent of water exposed, such as 98% of the water will be separated.

But in order to understand that, you must understand the two forms of water: whole & suspended. Whole is free water. Settles to the botttom.

Suspended is dissolved or emulsified. Ain't much that can be done in the car about dissolved. Forget it. Emulsified can be precipitated, with the help of a demulsifier.
Also, the water particles can be larger than the filter rating which will help remove even more water. ie: a 2µ filter media.

So let's say that you have some water in your filter/sep. The emusifier you added will help to dissolve that water and send it through your fuel system. Are you sure you want to do that? I really don't want to help whole water go into solution and then through my pump and injectors. Why do you see this as an advantage?

I would rather have water puddle on the bottom of my tank and have an occasional slug pulled up and deposited in the fuel separator, which handles free water, than dissolving all free water that may form in the system and run it though the pump and injectors. But hey, that's me.

I see it as better to try to take as much water out of suspension and put it in the separator, which will minimize the water that the pump and injectors are subjected to. The water, in any amount will still cause corrosion, a leading cause of fuel systems failure. The less water, the less corrosion. This is also what the diesel industry does as standard operating procedure. Even I am not going to argue with that.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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Lucky? I don't know about that.

Boundless, when you drain your "water separator", can you quantify how much water you see?
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
Well, okay.... you have skillfully selected the finest diesel fuel establishments and as a result have purchased fuel with very little water.


If I had water that was quantifiable, yes. If not, no.

Go on......
 
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