Bigger injectors (5speed tranny) + chip tuning, how to avoid smoke?

genericMK

Active member
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Location
Boulder, CO
TDI
05 B5.5 Wagon
I'm researching power upgrades for the engine. My goal is to get to 140hp+ range. My initial idea was to get the PowerPlus 520 injectors, which would raise the power to 110hp (per KermaTDI site) and later chip it. However, the comment on Kerma's site that no smoke on stock ECU makes me wonder about the smoke once I chip the PP520s.

I then thought maybe the Sprint 520s would be a better choice before ECU tune? But then, the PP520 are said to have a better injection stream for a more complete fuel burn, which would be less smoke, right? Or is it that if I am wanting to get into the 140+hp range I have to accept some smoke?

I depend on the vast experience of the people on this site to help answer the question.

It may be important to add that the motor is the ALH off of a 2002 Golf GL TDI with the 5sp manual tranny. Currently 70k miles.

Also, what other areas of the motor should I give my attention to? I replaced the fuel filter and flushed the fuel lines (this was a by-product of my pop putting standard gas in). Should I give the air intake a good clean? Should I give some attention to the exhaust?

Thanks in advance.

_MK
 

KROUT

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JAX FL
It really depends on the tune you get as to how much smoke you will have. Just about any tuner has the abilty to give you a smoke free tune with those nozzles.
 

genericMK

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Nov 6, 2007
Location
Boulder, CO
TDI
05 B5.5 Wagon
Interesting, thanks for the input.

My major hold on doing all at the same time is lack of funds. I may as well wait, but I'm coming from a GTI and I miss the power to some extent. My biggest gripe was handling, though, and I already spent money on new suspension, so that further sets back my funds for the power mods. In addition, PP520s + tune will require a clutch upgrade, whic is further cost.

Can anyone comment on the feasibility of doing the Alligator tune on a stock motor, later getting the nozzles and clutch with a re-tune?

Thanks for the tip about the VNT actuator. I did read up on it a bit, after you mentioned it, and thinking about the low end performance, I recall driving a friend of mine's TDI some time ago and feeling a definite torque increase around 2500rpms. With my TDI it comes up later. I wonder if I am experiencing the same problem. Could you point me to any resoruces about testing the VNT actuator and replacement?

_MK

SoCalJames said:
I've had the PP 520s for years and cleaned the intake at the same time. Good power/ torque increase for the money- But after getting an Alligator tune, I'm kicking myself that I didn't do both at the same time. There could be things that pop up and options to consider though.. My VNT actuator was slightly corroded and was keeping the vanes sligthly open. New actuator made a huge low-end difference.

Besides the increased performance, I'm extremely impressed with the REDUCED smoke over my previous setup with just the injectors. (Despite much experimentation with the IQ levels). The Alligator tune I have offers smooth, progressive and non-peaky performance.
 

KROUT

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Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
VNT17VA(turbo) with pp520's and rc4 you will be as fast as a stock gti with better mpg. That set up will be smoke free or damn close to it.
 

genericMK

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Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Location
Boulder, CO
TDI
05 B5.5 Wagon
New Turbo is big $$$, no? I don't really need to be right there at the GTI performance. I figured the TDI has a lot more torque, so with about 140hp the torque figure would be much above GTI's 201ft/lb mark, which would create roughtly the same feeling car, no?

Also, RC4 is a Rocket Chip stage 4? With the bigger turbo, I need a bigger intercooler, too? What kind of gas mileage are we talking about? I would like to keep stock fuel economy or improve it.

_MK

KROUT said:
VNT17VA(turbo) with pp520's and rc4 you will be as fast as a stock gti with better mpg. That set up will be smoke free or damn close to it.
 

KROUT

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Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
I used to get 40mpg with a heavy foot and more fueling mods than I listed when I had rc4. I could get as good as 48 but I dont have that much self control. You can run it with a stock side mount cooler but fmic is better.

Also fyi with nozzles and a chip your clutch will need to be upgraded. Keep that in the budget it will slip.

You wont have any problem running pp520's on a stock car.
 

genericMK

Active member
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Nov 6, 2007
Location
Boulder, CO
TDI
05 B5.5 Wagon
KROUT said:
You wont have any problem running pp520's on a stock car.
Cool. I also exchanged some PMs with Paul from KermaTDI and it seems that getting the nozzles first, tune second is the best option. Then after I upgrade the clutch I can go with a more aggresive tune. Looks like I have a game plan.

Thanks.

_MK
 

genericMK

Active member
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Location
Boulder, CO
TDI
05 B5.5 Wagon
bluesmoker said:
You also try biodiesel to reduce smoke.
Yeah, definitely. That's one of the reasons I sold the gasser and got a diesel. I live in Boulder, CO, after all, and there's a huge green craze going on and I couldn't resist. But from what I've learned in the winter running B100 isn't that good since it gels up. There are cold nights here at time and I do go to the mountiains on the weekends. I will probably wait until spring.

_MK
 

A_Shifter

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May 20, 2006
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Clarkdale, AZ
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon TDI
Bio was my major motivation too...Only a couple of places on the Front Range I've found to buy B100 and one of them is in Boulder.
 

ReferenceDesign

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Jan 3, 2003
Location
Atlanta, Ga
I did the RC3 first and then added the pp520s. Get the nozzle upgrade first. This will give you better mileage due to the shorter injection time.

Once I got the two together there were clutch issues but I babied it for 20K before getting the better clutch.

The 520s and RC3 do smoke. My Iq was int he 5s and I adjusted it down as low as it would go, in the 3s, without the hammer mod. This is when I got 51mpg and the 800mi club. The reduced Iq did take some of the power.
 

LNXGUY

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Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
ReferenceDesign said:
The 520s and RC3 do smoke. My Iq was int he 5s and I adjusted it down as low as it would go, in the 3s, without the hammer mod. This is when I got 51mpg and the 800mi club. The reduced Iq did take some of the power.
I think you meant to say your IQ was in the 3's and you raised it to 5 to get rid of the smoke.

Lowering the IQ increases fuel, raising the IQ lowers fuel.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Aug 16, 2004
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I have a different suggestion. Get tuned now and nozzles later. RC and PP520s cost about the same. RC3 will give you a nice bump in power (120/220 or thereabouts) and you can decide on nozzles to use and when later. FWIW, I would suggest using Sprint 520s instead of PPs until you upgrade your turbo. A tune with a decent amount of fueling will smoke with PP520s.
 

JackG

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Jan 23, 2005
Location
Flemington, NJ
TDI
Jetta 2003 Silver
genericMK said:
My major hold on doing all at the same time is lack of funds. I may as well wait, but I'm coming from a GTI and I miss the power to some extent. My biggest gripe was handling, though, and I already spent money on new suspension, so that further sets back my funds for the power mods. In addition, PP520s + tune will require a clutch upgrade, which is further cost.
I understand that lack of funds thing, but looking at mods without considering the clutch first may cause you disappointment, although ramping up mods first may sound financially compelling. At 82k my clutch started slipping a little in cold weather at lower RPM in stock condition. (Do a search on clutch problems associated with the stock duel mass clutch.) I changed the flywheel and pressure plate first. Then determined that with a 300 ft-lb clutch, I developed a compelling need for more torque. By the way it's torque that is the overriding advantage of diesels compared to gassers and the reason that the clutch is so important is because of the amount of torque/RPM at lower RPM. Just compare the torque curve of the TDI with GTI at lower RPM. Day and night. My setup produces 125 Hp and 225 ft-lbs of torque and is a hoot to drive. If your goal is to progressively increase your power, you don't want to be babying the thing because of a slipping clutch. You'll start haveing an argument with yourself... and then loose the argument. Just a thought.

genericMK said:
Thanks for the tip about the VNT actuator. I did read up on it a bit, after you mentioned it, and thinking about the low end performance, I recall driving a friend of mine's TDI some time ago and feeling a definite torque increase around 2500rpms. With my TDI it comes up later. I wonder if I am experiencing the same problem. Could you point me to any resources about testing the VNT actuator and replacement?
What you are describing here sounds similar to my TDI before mods. There almost seemed like there was a mid-range flat spot in performance. When I had Jeff at Rocketchip do the tune and nozzles, the instantaneous response of a push on the accelerator and acceleration of the vehicle made me smile, big time, but I also noticed right away that the mid-range lag was gone. That lag maybe just a part of the stock tune. You can check the VNT on these pages, do a search, do the testing but save your money for the other things you want, unless the actuator is actually bad.

When comparing the feel of a hot gasser to a hot diesel, one experiences different delights. The gasser will come off the line faster when in race mode and winding out the gears is fulfilling. But when at speed in normal driving conditions, then going to hard acceleration there is always a lag with the gasser or the requirement to down shift which causes a time delay where with a hotted up diesel, you just hit the accelerator and instantaneously feel yourself being gently pushed back against your seat. When I say instantaneously, I mean literally a fraction of a second as register on my boost gauge, the force pushing into my back and the smile on my face. So a direct comparison of a modified diesel and GTI is difficult. Who gets to the finish line first? Probably the GTI. Who has faster response? The modified TDI. What is a better car to drive? Why a modified TDI of course! Gads of fun and 45/52 (75 mph, cruse control) mpg to boot. This analysis is presented as a purely objective thesis but I've convinced myself, again. Hope you find my experiences useful. :)
 
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20IndigoBlue02

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Was North NJ, now SoCal
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2002 Golf TDI-- deceased
genericMK said:
Can anyone comment on the feasibility of doing the Alligator tune on a stock motor, later getting the nozzles and clutch with a re-tune?
_MK
Sure. That's what I did.

Aligator tune via Kerma.

When I got injectors, they sent me a new file

When I got a VNT-17, they sent me a new file

they also suggested a 3-bar MAP sensor, which they would up the boost with the VNT17 turbo to hide the smoke.

Of course, before I got chipped... I put a new clutch in.

with the Aligator tune via Kerma, you have the option to get the hardware/software to flash the ECU yourself, which costs more money, but since you're doing it slowly, imo, it's worth the extra money.

If you have a VAG-COM, it helps greatly as with a few logs, Aligator tweak the tunes even more to your preferences
 
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