40K Service - Blown Turbo - ???

JdC Machine

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Doubt that running it hard on cold oil would harm it as these engines have 5W oil in them, plus historically diesels often have been run hard right after startup ( emergency backup engines and such ) without issues; what has historically taken out turbos is EGT temperatures over 1200F for any reason- these are monster numbers and I have personally rebuilt 2 Dodge Cummins iron head ISB engines that ate pistons due to being run at 1300F and shutting down one with EGT's above 1,000 is totally unthinkable.
I talked to the guy who built my Ball barring turbo on my Dodge truck- he said that all new diesels see these monster EGT's and that the new turbo's are indeed designed better.... then he said not that much better and that he wouldn't ever let one "cook its seals hard" with the engine off on a interrupted regen on any make or model.
my 0.2
Don't go scaring people now. I've seen plenty of Cummins engines run above and beyond 1300degs. but those temps aren't SUSTAINED for much longer than 10-15 seconds. Watch some drag races and sled pulls. Talk to the drivers. They'll give you an estimate of what the EGTs were during the run down the track but they couldn't tell you exactly what they were because they don't even look at the EGT gauge.

Even Cummins specs that 1250degs. is a safe temperature at 100% load (for the ISB5.9's that I know of) and can be sustained safely for days on end if they need to. But that refers to keeping the pistons from melting. What generally kills turbos is not allowing EGTs to come down to safe levels before shutdown. Therefore, any oil that remains in the bearings and on the shaft will coke/burn to them. That equates to poor lubrication and cooling in the future which only becomes worse and worse every time. The magic number I learned during my diesel tech. schooling was around 400degs. F and above is chancing the oil coking on the bearings and shaft.

What I think of when I hear turbo failure during higher EGTs (at least those that are not sustained for long periods), is overspeeding of the turbo with the engine being run hard. High EGTs sustained for long periods usually only effects the pistons, turning them into liquid. The turbo(s) live. They're lifespans are shorter but they live. That is, if EGTs were allowed to cool off before shutting the engine down.

Emg. stand-by generators have jacket water heaters. The idea behind that is to keep the coolant and oil warm enough so that they can safely jump to 100% load immediately after start-up without the worry of headgasket failure. I wouldn't trust my Cummins to last very long if I were WOT throttle from start-up. I drive it (and my TDI) for about 10 minutes, allowing oil and coolant temps. to warm up before I begin to put the hammer down.

Just my 2 cents. Not attacking anybody.

Sorry to highjack the thread, but I've got a question about the diesel truck turbos. I thought that GMs method of DPF regen that uses a 9th injector after the turbo avoided the high EGTs to the turbo itself. Meaning a GM truck can be shutdown during a regen with no risk to the turbo. True?
In short, no. False. Unless this is new emissions technology on the LML's, Isuzu (Mfg. of the Duramax) never put a 9th fuel injector after the turbo. During a regen cycle, the only thing that has changed is the addition of a fuel injection event, generally. There's not an immediate risk to the turbo if the engine is shutdown during a regen. Only a large decrease to the turbo's lifespan. This goes for any diesel engine with a DPF that requires regeneration.
 
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JdC Machine

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Is it a newer turbo that is going on to these things or the same one?
The replacements seem to be reman'd units but I don't believe it's been confirmed. Yet. I did read the fine print on a service invoice once that stated any replacement part marked with an "X" is a reman'd part. Not sure exactly how much truth there is behind that statement.
 

PassatSE4me

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So I'm gathering from this thread that shutting down during a regen could actually be doing damage to the turbo, when we're told by VW you aren't hurting a thing. I don't like the idea myself. I've interrupted 4 so far.

What I find fascinating is the fact that 31 turbos went last year yet we have no proof of what caused the failures. I would like to think that info should be available by now to at least one person, somewhere. I mean c'mon. The most logical explanation to me is the high EGT's cooking the oil like was mentioned. Too many of those unfinished regens can't be good.
 

rmd0311

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I can tell you that in the summer it seemed as if I never had a regen. But i have had a few since the cold weather hit and had a few last winter as well...
 

jrm

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In short, no. False. Unless this is new emissions technology on the LML's, Isuzu (Mfg. of the Duramax) never put a 9th fuel injector after the turbo. During a regen cycle, the only thing that has changed is the addition of a fuel injection event, generally. There's not an immediate risk to the turbo if the engine is shutdown during a regen. Only a large decrease to the turbo's lifespan. This goes for any diesel engine with a DPF that requires regeneration.
They did add a 9th injector on the LML plus Urea, but only to allow B20 bio by not spraying on exhaust stroke, as for the Cummins EGT's one was a 1997 12V B engine with 28 degrees of timeing, I have a feeling it was above 1500F the other was a block 51 1999 with to hot of a box and too small of a turbo.
 
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rmd0311

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Do you know what the turbo replacement cost is out of warranty?


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I saw a price of 6k while researching last night. Could that be right. I know warranty is covering now, but I drive 35k per year. It's conceivable that if they replace the turbo with a remanufactured unit, this will happen again and the next time will be off warranty.


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Bobmws

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I saw a price of 6k while researching last night. Could that be right. I know warranty is covering now, but I drive 35k per year. It's conceivable that if they replace the turbo with a remanufactured unit, this will happen again and the next time will be off warranty.


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I would think there should be a warranty period on the replacement part. Ask the service manager.
 

rmd0311

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I would think there should be a warranty period on the replacement part. Ask the service manager.
I am sure there will be... but I will blow out the mileage part of that warranty in no time... my curiosity is if the $6k to replace is accurate, for when all these warranties are done.
 

pparks1

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If interrupting these regens was truly a catastrophic event, VW would have a light or something on the dash indicating that a regen was underway and should not be interrupted. As it is now, they keep the fans running as a precautionary measure.
 

vw_norm

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I use a scan gage to avoid interrupting a regen. Even then, it happens sometimes. I found that immediately restarting the engine will cancel the regen, but also drive down the EGTs to avoid the heat soaked turbo. The second or two it takes to realize the error made would not have a deleterious effect on the turbo. While the starter motor might not like it, it is far more accessible than the turbo. Other times I will leave the car idle until the regen is done. It really seems that it kicks off a regen about 3.3 seconds before I want to turn it off, such as when arriving at a store for a quick errand. In these cases, I leave it running, set the P-brake, and roll down the driver's window, get out, lock the doors from the inside lock button and then pull up on the window switch to shut it. Everytime, the regen is done by the time I come out.
 

rmd0311

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If interrupting these regens was truly a catastrophic event, VW would have a light or something on the dash indicating that a regen was underway and should not be interrupted. As it is now, they keep the fans running as a precautionary measure.
Could not agree more...
 

VeeDubTDI

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And inconvenience and confuse the general car buying public? I doubt it. Also, the term "catastrophic" is a bit sensationalist.
 

bboshart

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Just another data point... I had a turbo failure last winter (reported on the other thread) and I never had interrupted a regen.
 

rmd0311

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Dealer says they are gonna start working on the car tomorrow...

They gave me a Tiguan for the time being. I drive WAYYYYY too much and considering dumping this and going elsewhere... Not sure if it would be worth it, but considering it...

I'm always gonna be thinking now, will the turbo blow again and when. Sorry for the ranting I just did not expect this for such a new vehicle.
 

JdC Machine

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They did add a 9th injector on the LML plus Urea, but only to allow B20 bio by not spraying on exhaust stroke, as for the Cummins EGT's one was a 1997 12V B engine with 28 degrees of timeing, I have a feeling it was above 1500F the other was a block 51 1999 with to hot of a box and too small of a turbo.
Good to know about the LML. Thanks!

Of course the Cummins specs I gave are for an otherwise stock motor. But an aluminum piston is an aluminum piston and with that much timing, I'd be keeping an eye on EGTs also. Most competition motors are built with Mahle steel pistons in order to avoid such a worry. How fun was that motor to start, let alone, start in the cold weather??

I also think you meant to say the 53 block. Those blocks have a problem of their own in stock form. I wouldn't put the blame on the turbo or a tuner on any engine with "53" stamped on the side.
 

jrm

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How fun was that motor to start, let alone, start in the cold weather??

I also think you meant to say the 53 block. Those blocks have a problem of their own in stock form. I wouldn't put the blame on the turbo or a tuner on any engine with "53" stamped on the side.
Wasn't fun to start, I think the owner took my advice and put it back in the teens shortly after the rebuild.
Yes cracked 53 block, but as you state hot box with not enough boost ate #6 on him. Those engines are actually pretty fun to build.
 

rmd0311

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Just got a call back from the dealer. More parts have needed to be ordered, filters and whatnot's.... So it won't be tomorrow for sure...
 

767wrench

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I dont know if parts have become more available yet but my car took a month. I feel Vw should have made my payment that month
 

rmd0311

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I dont know if parts have become more available yet but my car took a month. I feel Vw should have made my payment that month
I hope that is not the case. They got the turbo pretty quickly. Not sure why they did not order everything at once or if simply more things popped up bad as they went along.

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rmd0311

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Got my car back today...

Yes it was a remanufactured turbo...

I've been thinking about going back to the Mazda 6. Got a great deal on the Passat and the Mazda, deal done. I drive to much to be worried about cool down and all that other crap. Great car, but not for me. Thanks for all your help guys. I appreciate it.

I have the Passat for another week or so. The new car gets in, in a week.
 
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tdiatlast

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Sorry to see you go, but I think your succumbing to hysteria. Too bad.
Only time will tell if you've made the right decision, and the rest of us holding onto our Passats made the wrong decision.
Good luck!
 

rmd0311

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Sorry to see you go, but I think your succumbing to hysteria. Too bad.
Only time will tell if you've made the right decision, and the rest of us holding onto our Passats made the wrong decision.
Good luck!
Thanks man. I hope I was wrong. Trade is finalized and I picked up the 6 yesterday. The Passat is a great car just not for me.

Thank you all for the help and assistance. Best of luck.

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jrm

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Im hanging onto mine no matter what the future holds, even if that includes a DPF delete and complete rebuild.
Vw has always brought a diesel to the states and I respect that :)
 

RichN

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I In these cases, I leave it running, set the P-brake, and roll down the driver's window, get out, lock the doors from the inside lock button and then pull up on the window switch to shut it. Everytime, the regen is done by the time I come out.
vw_norm, kind of off topic, but does your second key fob unlock the door to get back in? I tried your trick this morning and had to pop the cover off the drivers door handle to manually unlock the door. My second key fob would not unlock the doors or trunk.

Thanks
 
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