Basic Diagnostic Tools help

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 14, 2020

I have an ALH TDI in my Vanagon with a Bosch Mechanical Injection pump.

I'm a diesel noob, and I want to install some basic things to help diagnose "lack of performance" issues.

1. Tach: can anyone suggest one, and some instruction on where it would get a signal from?

2. Boost gauge. I know next to nothing about turbos, and *need to know how much boost this is making, etc.
Same: can you recommend one and point at instructions on where it gets installed? I assume I have to drill and tap the (intake?) for this.

3. EGT gauge. Same as above.

I think one I get these going, I can actually start to ask some smart questions on how to get good power out of this thing.
Thanks you !
Nick

shoebear · Jul 14, 2020

What do you mean, Bosch Mechanical Injection Pump? Do you mean a computer controlled Bosch VE pump as most ALH's have, or did you stick an old non-computerized pump on it?

If you have an ECM, you should be able to get tach and boost via the OBD-2 port with a program like Torque. If you don't have an ECM, I don't know where to get tach, and I suppose you could install a mechanical boost gauge with a hose leading from your post intercooler charge air pipe to the gauge. For EGT, install a probe and pick whichever gauge you like; there are lots of them. There are many kits available as well, where you get gauge, wiring, and probe all together.

If you drill a probe hole in your exhaust manifold while the turbo is installed, you will probably get some metal shavings in the manifold that are likely to damage the turbo. Alternatively, many people delete the EGR cooler (if you even have one in that custom setup of yours), and then install blockoff plate on the EGR port on the turbo. The blockoff plate can be removed, drilled, and tapped for a probe without any danger to the turbo, or you can buy a plate already drilled and tapped. In this case, you need an extra long probe so you can get the tip down into the exhaust stream. Here's a link to a drilled/tapped blockoff plate:
https://www.idparts.com/exhaust-turbo-manifold-block-plate-port-p-3070.html

And here's a kit with the above plus a long probe:
https://www.idparts.com/long-probe-with-block-plate-mcaegtprobe-p-1202.html
Looks like it's been discontinued, but call idparts to be sure.

Hope this helps.

oilhammer · Jul 15, 2020

Yeah, is it what is known as the "M-TDI" setup? And define "lack of performance". Compared to what? Is this a Westy? Is it loaded down? Even a healthy stock ALH if tasked with pushing a 4k pound mini-house down the road isn't going to win any races. But it'll easily outperform the most powerful engine ever sold in a Vanagon here: the 2.1L waterboxer, which was only 95hp.

The old pre-TDI diesels used the alternator for the tach signal, but I am not really sure that is something you "need". I've driven all over the place in vehicles that did not have such a device. A boost gauge can be tapped in anywhere in the charge air tract. Is this engine intercooled? If so, how? Where? An EGT gauge can be tapped into the exhaust really anywhere, but typically it is done in the turbo housing itself, often where the EGR pipe connects if it has been blocked off.

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 15, 2020

Yes, there is no ECU it is a full mechanical injection pump from a Rover(?).
No intercooler.

Yep, the so called MTDI.

They are simple and reliable and a common old school thing to do it seems.
Here is a pic of my engine bay

So the performance issues I mean are like this:
Around town you feel like you have enough power (but you still have to give it lots of throttle).

1. It's Slow
Merging onto the freeway feels downright dangerous. I think 65 mph is winding the engine out a bit, and climbing mountains I get into the 30 mph range. Which is just horrible.
The Samba folks believe this motor and auto trans should be capable of moving this van around comfortably at highway speeds.
Therefore I'm trying to put basic things in place to provide evidence that the engine is performing properly, and possibly changing out the final drive with better ratios

2. When warm I get a "high idle". If I pull up to a light and shift to neutral and give it fuel, the Revs stay high.
It does this when driving also.

The Van is a high top but it does not have kitchen stuff in it.
It has the same struggle with me only in it or with passengers.

My gut tells me the diesel in this is not set up properly so I'm trying to add tools to provide data (boost, rpm, etc.) so I can get help getting this sorted out.

Obvious it works ok with none of these things, but I think it can be a lot better.

Vince Waldon · Jul 15, 2020

The long and the short of it is that since you have a fully-mechanical pump any performance changes are in the hands of whoever you find that can tune M-TDI pumps. Internal mechanical changes to the pump itself are likely involved... specifically things like the cam profile, matched with injectors.

This person may be a bit tricky to find but you'll need their help, and they will be best positioned to tell you what data they need.

I mention this because they may or may not will be worried about EGT for example, which is a bit of a pain to install without pulling the turbo off the engine. If you don't need to do this 'cause the data is not needed you might save yourself some trouble.

They may also be able to advise on if an M-TDI pump-based engine will ever be able to deliver the performance you need pushing a van. Better to know sooner than later if you're wasting time and money on a platform that ultimately won't meet your needs.

oilhammer · Jul 15, 2020

OK, so if it is an automatic, you lose about 20% useable power right off the bat. Trust me, I've owned or at least driven pretty much every possible combination of Transporter sold in the US since about 1960. The only 2-pedal Transporter that has a chance of getting out of its own way is the 1986-1991 2.1L non-camper, and even then it struggles with hills on highways. Only 3 speeds, all close together, and no lockup. Even the Porsche 944 that uses the same transmission can be schooled by any rental Sentra full of fat chicks in a drag race. It's that bad.

You've got the high top, which will make things even worse.

Now it lost the intercooler, which isn't specifically a power adder on its own, but allows for higher levels of boost from the turbo, which DOES add power. So depending on how it was detuned, it could be only making about 75hp. Now we add in the mechanical pump aspect, and again not a net loss so long as the pump's lower internals are still able to work the same, but in your case likely it has been compromised.

I'd say you have a collection of problems, or at least a handful, that could cause some issues.

First thing is, does it smoke at all? A stock, healthy ALH, even with no catalyst, really shouldn't smoke... maybe at hard launch a wee little puff, maybe some slight haze seen in headlights behind you at night, but nothing you could see from the driver's seat. If it smokes, is it black or white?

Next, how is the turbo controlled? The ALH uses a vacuum operated VNT actuator on the turbo that is controlled via a PWM solenoid via input from the ECU, that is constantly monitoring boost via the MAP sensor. You do not have any of that, so.... ????

I suspect you at minimum need someone who is familiar with the ALH to at least look at it, and see if he/she can decipher some of what may be going on.

shoebear · Jul 15, 2020

The mechanical pump performance tuner I've heard about here on the forums is Giles Gallie in Canada. I don't have any personal experience with him, but several people have praised him highly. Here's his website:

https://www.performancediesel.ca/performance.htm

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 18, 2020

oilhammer said:
OK, so if it is an automatic, you lose about 20% useable power right off the bat. Trust me, I've owned or at least driven pretty much every possible combination of Transporter sold in the US since about 1960. The only 2-pedal Transporter that has a chance of getting out of its own way is the 1986-1991 2.1L non-camper, and even then it struggles with hills on highways. Only 3 speeds, all close together, and no lockup. Even the Porsche 944 that uses the same transmission can be schooled by any rental Sentra full of fat chicks in a drag race. It's that bad.

You've got the high top, which will make things even worse.

Now it lost the intercooler, which isn't specifically a power adder on its own, but allows for higher levels of boost from the turbo, which DOES add power. So depending on how it was detuned, it could be only making about 75hp. Now we add in the mechanical pump aspect, and again not a net loss so long as the pump's lower internals are still able to work the same, but in your case likely it has been compromised.

I'd say you have a collection of problems, or at least a handful, that could cause some issues.

First thing is, does it smoke at all? A stock, healthy ALH, even with no catalyst, really shouldn't smoke... maybe at hard launch a wee little puff, maybe some slight haze seen in headlights behind you at night, but nothing you could see from the driver's seat. If it smokes, is it black or white?

Next, how is the turbo controlled? The ALH uses a vacuum operated VNT actuator on the turbo that is controlled via a PWM solenoid via input from the ECU, that is constantly monitoring boost via the MAP sensor. You do not have any of that, so.... ????

I suspect you at minimum need someone who is familiar with the ALH to at least look at it, and see if he/she can decipher some of what may be going on.

Yep.
I went to my friends place who is a diesel guy and knows a bit about the VW diesels.
We did a few things:
1. Adjusted the throttle cable so the kick-down works better. (you floor it, you downshift) - no longer at 5/8ths throttle or whatever it was.

2. [EDIT: Need to double check this.] Confirmed the Turbo is correct for this motor (K03), did a sanity check on it (disconnect the turbo outlet just to see if it was pushing a bunch of air - it was) and replaced some fuel return lines from the injectors which were cracked. And some copper washers at the fuel return at the Mechanical injector pump.
This stopped any air bubbles in the "view port" on the return line.

3. Showed me where to put EGT and Boost on the motor (seems simple enough). Also Suggested an intercooler (as a no brainer option)

4. Test drove

His feedback was that the motor was putting out enough power. Nothing jumped out at him as being "wrong". His opinion of the "hard to climb hills" and what not is that the engine and auto trans were a bad match. "It feels like you are always in the wrong gear."

So ... next I'll put a boost gauge in it, see about a Tach and maybe an EGT and see if we can get actual data.

Someone else asked about "what controls the turbo", well I don't think its a VNT, it just spins with the exhaust gas. There is not lever or solenoid on it.

Smokes a small amount at start up and when you are WFO on the freeway climbing a hill I can see a bit of Black smoke.

Otherwise it's not smokey.

Vince Waldon · Jul 18, 2020

If it's not a VNT it's not the stock ALH turbo, and there's at least one version of a "K03" that's the stock waste-gated turbo on the 1.6l IDI engine (the previous generation) and would bolt on to the ALH block.

Like many swaps your engine is a non-factory hybrid, and some detailed pictures of the engine compartment would be a great help.

Given that you're trying to diagnose power, close-up pictures of the turbo would be particularly helpful. An incorrect turbo sizing or fitment could be one thing holding you back.

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 19, 2020

Here are pics, sorry for the quality though!

This says 049

0303

oilhammer · Jul 20, 2020

Ha! Yeah, that's a mess. I'd ****-can the whole thing and start over, LOL. Looks like someone put a teeny tiny turbo from one of the early TDIs on there, and who knows what pump it has. No wonder it can't climb hills. It probably makes about 60hp and is trying to push it all through a slushbox.

jimbote · Jul 20, 2020

if that is indeed a rover pump you should get plenty of power out of it despite the small turbo. Turbo appears to be an AHU/1Z or an aaz turbo. should be good for 110-115 hp. You first need to confirm that it's a true direct injection pump and not a repurposed IDI pump. then;
*timing
*max fuel
*boost pin orientation
*LDA spring seat adjustment
*boost confirmation and adjustment

just those things should make a world of difference. I've driven an automatic trans mechanical ALH vanagon and it was no slouch (libbybapa's)

jimbote · Jul 20, 2020

turbo id tag should be on the front side of the compressor housing. Also, if you can, post a pic of the pump ID tag/plate.

burn_your_money · Jul 20, 2020

The bolt pattern of the down pipe indicates that it is a K03 from what I can see.

Vince Waldon · Jul 20, 2020

Yup, exhaust side looked K03-ish to me as well... 1.6l K03, so kinda undersized for a 1.9 but not hopeless.

Aluminum plate on the compressor housing, as Jimbote suggests, will tell the tale.

jimbote said:
You first need to confirm that it's a true direct injection pump and not a repurposed IDI pump. then;
*timing
*max fuel
*boost pin orientation
*LDA spring seat adjustment
*boost confirmation and adjustment

just those things should make a world of difference. I've driven an automatic trans mechanical ALH vanagon and it was no slouch (libbybapa's)

OP: Libbybapa's a member on this site with lots of experience building M-TDI pumps... might be worth getting his perspective, once you've tracked down a picture of the actual label on the pump itself.

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 20, 2020

jimbote said:
if that is indeed a rover pump you should get plenty of power out of it despite the small turbo. Turbo appears to be an AHU/1Z or an aaz turbo. should be good for 110-115 hp. You first need to confirm that it's a true direct injection pump and not a repurposed IDI pump. then;
*timing
*max fuel
*boost pin orientation
*LDA spring seat adjustment
*boost confirmation and adjustment

just those things should make a world of difference. I've driven an automatic trans mechanical ALH vanagon and it was no slouch (libbybapa's)

FYI the numbers on the Injection Pump are:
1 465 530 746

13815
This makes me think it's a Bosch unit, but I have no idea what it's off of.

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 20, 2020

Vince Waldon said:
Yup, exhaust side looked K03-ish to me as well... 1.6l K03, so kinda undersized for a 1.9 but not hopeless.

Aluminum plate on the compressor housing, as Jimbote suggests, will tell the tale.

OP: Libbybapa's a member on this site with lots of experience building M-TDI pumps... might be worth getting his perspective, once you've tracked down a picture of the actual label on the pump itself.

If that is Andrew, I'm having a similar conversation with him on the Samba!
His feedback is: this should produce more power than it does.
Put a boost gauge on it, and we'll go from there.

Vince Waldon · Jul 20, 2020

Yes, that's Andrew, and he'll know what engine your pump came from.

jimbote · Jul 21, 2020

it appears to be a 1997 ? renault espace pump... if so, this is an IDI (prechamber) engine and does NOT have an ideal cam plate or timing range for a TDI ..best bet is a rover 200 or 300 tdi pump. I can FB link you to someone in the UK who can provide a good used pump for reasonable cost.

swissarmychainsaw · Jul 21, 2020

jimbote said:
it appears to be a 1997 ? renault espace pump... if so, this is an IDI (prechamber) engine and does NOT have an ideal cam plate or timing range for a TDI ..best bet is a rover 200 or 300 tdi pump. I can FB link you to someone in the UK who can provide a good used pump for reasonable cost.

Thank you, right now I'm trying to see what I have, and if it's working to full capacity, then go from there.

Oilhammer might be right!

The good news, is that this thing is dead reliable, and I'm about to road trip it. It may not be producing the power I want, it's still fun to drive.

burn_your_money · Jul 24, 2020

Vince Waldon said:
Yup, exhaust side looked K03-ish to me as well... 1.6l K03, so kinda undersized for a 1.9 but not hopeless.

Aluminum plate on the compressor housing, as Jimbote suggests, will tell the tale.

I’m pretty sure it’s off a AAZ. It should be a K03-003. 1.6TD only came with a T3, K24 or a K14.

The K03 is the smallest turbo that came stock on the AAZ. I would think it’s a terrible choice in a heavy, automatic van. Andrew will know for sure though.

burn_your_money · Jul 24, 2020

I wouldn’t go far without a EGT gauge. The camplate profile will cause a long slow diesel injection which could melt stuff. It will likely also significantly delay the start of injection which can run up the EGTs.

Vince Waldon · Jul 24, 2020

burn_your_money said:
I’m pretty sure it’s off a AAZ. It should be a K03-003. 1.6TD only came with a T3, K24 or a K14.
The K03 is the smallest turbo that came stock on the AAZ. I would think it’s a terrible choice in a heavy, automatic van. Andrew will know for sure though.

Seeing the list you're (of course) right Tyler... was thinking K03 on the 1.6 but of course it was a T3.

Either way, the K03 is tiny tiny tiny and not helping that van much.

swissarmychainsaw · Aug 9, 2020

So it looks like my intake is from an AAZ.

When I was rooting around to set up the boost gauge, I notices that the vacuum port brass nozzle thing was broken in half so it's now super short (and likely not making a good connection)

What is the name of this Elbo Intake piece so I can find a replacement?
Can anyone confirm if the brass piece is pressed in or threaded?

If it was an ALH part it would be the "EGR delete" thing.

swissarmychainsaw · Aug 9, 2020

Vince Waldon said:
Yes, that's Andrew, and he'll know what engine your pump came from.

I spoke to him on the phone and he said the outside numbers on the pump are not as important as what is inside (cam profile and such).

He gave some suggestions -- starting with EGT and boost gauge.

swissarmychainsaw · Aug 9, 2020

When shopping for EGT gauges, should I get 1500 max temp or 2400?

And for boost? Max 60? 30?

Also I plan on putting a "T" fitting between the Intake Port and Injector Pump, is that the right way? Just like a vacuum line.

Anyone have a set they like? I'm looking at glowshift ..

Basic Diagnostic Tools help

Member

Veteran Member

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

Member

Top Post Dawg

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

Veteran Member

Member

Top Post Dawg

Member

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor

Certified Volkswagen Nut

Certified Volkswagen Nut

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Member

Member

Top Post Dawg

Certified Volkswagen Nut

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Member

Member

Member