toyota/jeep swap using quicktime+novak....

Just wondering if anyone has considered this option?.... quicktime (lakewood) RM-4082 bell housing for mating audi/vw 4,5 cylinder and VR engines to a tko/muncie etc trans, coupled with, a novak GMAX15 for mating the chevy bell housing with the four bolt rear pattern (tko, muncie etc.) to the AX15/R150/AR5 etc ...the lakewood measures 6.3" depth and the novak appears to be about an inch thick so that would put it into the range of a stock taco V6 R150 input length/bell housing depth ....you would have to use an internal slave, AUDI/VW longitudinal flywheel, pressure plate and starter along with an 8 7/8" toy disc but it would be a pretty sweet setup....by the time you put it all together you would prob be in for around $1500+ ...the biggest reason I'm even contemplating this is that I just pulled the trans in my taco to replace the pressure plate with a heavy duty ACT unit and I discovered my "newly" machined pilot was trashed due to the trans being misaligned to the crank center....soooo, I ordered a new ACME plate to replace my current "clone" thinking it would line up tighter than my current plate, tested it and it has about 2-3 mm of slop on the studs, no better than my copycat plate! (.010 or less eccentric allowed on most applications)...this misalignment can lead to worn pilot bearings, input bearings, clutch vibration etc (as i experienced).....I can rectify this by finding center with a dial indicator and drilling for dowels but just looking for a fool proof solution that doesn't require cutting up a transmission case and bell housing in order to make a centering jig....BTW it appears both the lakewood and the novak use factory dowel pins to locate rotational center on their adapters

That's one thing I've been worried about the ACME plate has a bit too much play for what I thought was acceptable...glad I'm not the only one who is having this issue.

89vr6 said:

That's one thing I've been worried about the ACME plate has a bit too much play for what I thought was acceptable...glad I'm not the only one who is having this issue.

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i wouldn't be surprised if others have had pilot issues using the acme plate... i love the product but just wish there was a solid foolproof lineup provision, i'm gonna post up my alignment procedure fix and hopefully others can use it to dial in their plate .... if you're using a four cylinder trans you can borrow my jig once i'm finished

Cool well hurry up with that jig lol because it will be soon that I will be needing it lol

jimbote said:

BTW it appears both the lakewood and the novak use factory dowel pins to locate rotational center on their adapters

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So does mine

greengeeker said:

So does mine

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that's awesome! ...and i would expect a plate costing $xxx should also be so accurate .... the design of the adapter forces it to rely on countersunk bolts for plate to block location, well who's to say VW accurately machined those two bolt holes to crank center on every block? so even if ACME provided locating dowels on the trans side of the adapter, could it then be relied on to center the pilot to the crank ? ...OK, assuming every block is slightly different in regards to the mounting holes, then each plate needs to be bolted up the block it's going to be used on, then the trans bell needs to be center located to that particular adapter and finally drilled and locked in with dowel pins....if acme provided some sort of go/nogo gauge and a selection of offset dowel pins to work in conjunction with the gauge, then this setup could be more satisfactory....

If only we know someone with 3D scanner that we could send him bellhousing and he will digitise them for every one with a specific tranny that way we will have acurate dimension and dowel pin positions
For a fee for sure

OK...spent all day in the shop, part of the time cleaning up and organizing rest of the time trying to sort out this adapter plate thing ....note!...sorry about the crappy pictures...they look much better on my phone ... EDIT: I just noticed that the tiny round protective film was still attached to my camera lens!...no wonder the pictures suck!!


for the measurement I used a spare 22r bell housing with the front half a G/W series trans case that my buddy Brandon cut up in a bandsaw


the dial indicator was mounted to the crank via a ranger flywheel bolt, a short piece of aluminum and a few nuts to lock it all down... a 1/4 threaded rod lock nutted to the aluminum plate positioned the dial indicator inside the input bore of the trans case


closeup showing the attachment to crank


dial indicator peeking through the input bearing bore

the first plate I measured with the assistance of my friend Don was the ACME ...after zeroing the gauge I came up with .091" total runout giving about .045" offset from the crank to the input bore.... after doing some reading max runout should be .010" or .005' offset ...I tried loosening the nuts/bolts to snug and tapping the bell in the needed direction but was only able to scrub a couple of thousandths off the total...

next I measured my clone plate which was copied directly from a plate I purchased second hand a few years ago, this is the plate I've been running on my truck since march 2010 .... after zeroing the dial and running the crank 360 degrees I got a total runout of .085 ...slightly better than the ACME but still pretty horrible...again I attempted to tap the bell in the needed directions but came nowhere near the acceptable limit of .005 offset....

so the only way to adjust at this point was to drill the bell housing mounting holes...stock holes measured in around .490" ....so I enlarged the mounting holes in two steps to .604" using a 39/64" bit for the final cut

after remounting the bell zeroing the dial and few trial and error taps with a deadblow I was able to get the reading down to just a little under .005" runout or about .0025" offset ....not perfect but within acceptable limits ....

next step is to backdrill the blind 10mm dowel holes in the bell housing (for access via a transfer punch) then I will remount the whole rig to the engine in the truck and center the bell using the dial indicator and transfer punch through the dowel holes into the plate...then I will remove everything and drill the plate for dowels reassemble and recheck...fingers crossed but if need be I will use offset dowels to dial it in as close to zero as possible ... I'll update once i've passed go

I never knew the ACME kit was that far off. I have never heard anything less than a stellar review. I know one guy in canada that has had the kit on his sidekick for nearly 50,000 miles, and is still on the original clutch set. Maybe the suzuki kit is better than the toyota kit?

Also, on that quick time adapter, it says it's for 4,5, or vr6 motors, but isn't the vr6 bolt pattern different than the vw 4 cyl bell housing? At least according to jegs, it fits the vr6
http://www.jegs.com/p/Quick-Time-Be...n-Engine-Adapter-Bellhousing/2834600/10002/-1

samuraitd said:

I never knew the ACME kit was that far off. I have never heard anything less than a stellar review. I know one guy in canada that has had the kit on his sidekick for nearly 50,000 miles, and is still on the original clutch set. Maybe the suzuki kit is better than the toyota kit?

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I hope so too.... from my observations of the toyota plate it appears the two mounting studs and two bolt holes for the bell housing need to be over 1 millimeter toward seven oclock from the one or two oclock position looking at the rear of the plate ... even if those holes were machined correctly the slop between the bellhousing bolt holes and studs/bolts will still allow the bell housing to float to an unacceptable eccentric to the crank ....but in the case of both the new plate and the clone the bell housing holes had to be enlarged over .110" to even get within range !! ....I'm pretty disappointed at this point and will be giving Jeff a call tomorrow

samuraitd said:

Also, on that quick time adapter, it says it's for 4,5, or vr6 motors, but isn't the vr6 bolt pattern different than the vw 4 cyl bell housing? At least according to jegs, it fits the vr6
http://www.jegs.com/p/Quick-Time-Be...n-Engine-Adapter-Bellhousing/2834600/10002/-1

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yes the VR, the five cylinder and the four banger are all different but the bell housing incorporates all of these patterns into the flange ...take a closer look at all those holes !! ...looks like swiss cheese !!

Fail on my part, I didn't even look at the picture closely. That sucks about the acme plate. Hope everything goes smoothly for you.

samuraitd said:

Fail on my part, I didn't even look at the picture closely. That sucks about the acme plate. Hope everything goes smoothly for you.

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no worries!.... I think it'll be fine...I'm going to correct and continue to use my current setup with the clone plate for the time being but I'm seriously considering upgrading to the lakewood/novak setup ...it's more expensive upfront but I use my truck nearly every day and can't stand the downtime ....

As an FYI regarding 2-d digitizing of an engine bulkhead surface, bellhousing, trans bolt patterns etc, a very accurate and simple approach I've often used involves taking an image with a good quality (>5 megapixel) digital camera from a great enough distance to minimize perspective effects, keep the plane of the camera parallel to the plane of the target, and zoom in until the target surface fills the image. Note any large feature sizes (holes, etc.) or place known size targets (flat discs) on the same plane as the features being measured. Open the image in Photoshop or something similar and use the known size targets to properly scale the image size (get the scale factor in pixels/inch, etc.). Find the centers of the features you are interested in and record. Shapes and curves can be similarly determined for CAD input. Using this technique, pixel dimensions routinely translate to a couple of thousandths of an inch or less.

That's to bad to hear about your adapter Jim!
What I did with mine was go in the opposite direction.
I started with the trans and worked to the engine.

I made a plexyglass plate that fit snugly over the input shaft with the trans dowels removed. I then measured the freedom of the inputshaft bearings by moving the input shaft normal to it's axis in both planes. I clamped the plexyglass plate to the bellhousing with it located at the mid point of this freedom. The trans bolt holes were marked and drilled.

I then downloaded the VW 4 cyl bellhousing layout and added a circle corosponding to the size of the input shaft of the ax15 trans onto the crank centeral axis. (This matched the hole already in the plexyglass plate) l printed this layout full scale and used the circle on the printout to align with the central hole on the plexyglass plate. The location of the VW Bolt holes were transfered and drilled.

This allowed me to test fit my adapter in plastic before transfering all holes to steel.

After I cut out the shape of the plate in steel, the all holes were transfered drilled. The trans holes were tapped for all simple bolt holes and a counterbore with a mild interfearance fit for the bolt holes containing the trans dowels.The engine holes were drilled 0.5mm oversize with a counter sunk head, and a mild interfearance fit for the bolt holes containing the engine dowels.

After making the steel adapter it fit up like a factory part and aligned perfectly using both engine dowels and both trans dowels. I am pleased this was the method I used as it's been 2 years and no problems, just works!

Ryan

bzeien said:

As an FYI regarding 2-d digitizing of an engine bulkhead surface, bellhousing, trans bolt patterns etc, a very accurate and simple approach I've often used involves taking an image with a good quality (>5 megapixel) digital camera from a great enough distance to minimize perspective effects, keep the plane of the camera parallel to the plane of the target, and zoom in until the target surface fills the image. Note any large feature sizes (holes, etc.) or place known size targets (flat discs) on the same plane as the features being measured. Open the image in Photoshop or something similar and use the known size targets to properly scale the image size (get the scale factor in pixels/inch, etc.). Find the centers of the features you are interested in and record. Shapes and curves can be similarly determined for CAD input. Using this technique, pixel dimensions routinely translate to a couple of thousandths of an inch or less.

Click to expand...

interesting way to model a part

alphawerks said:

That's to bad to hear about your adapter Jim!
What I did with mine was go in the opposite direction.
I started with the trans and worked to the engine.

I made a plexyglass plate that fit snugly over the input shaft with the trans dowels removed. I then measured the freedom of the inputshaft bearings by moving the input shaft normal to it's axis in both planes. I clamped the plexyglass plate to the bellhousing with it located at the mid point of this freedom. The trans bolt holes were marked and drilled.

I then downloaded the VW 4 cyl bellhousing layout and added a circle corosponding to the size of the input shaft of the ax15 trans onto the crank centeral axis. (This matched the hole already in the plexyglass plate) l printed this layout full scale and used the circle on the printout to align with the central hole on the plexyglass plate. The location of the VW Bolt holes were transfered and drilled.

This allowed me to test fit my adapter in plastic before transfering all holes to steel.

After I cut out the shape of the plate in steel, the all holes were transfered drilled. The trans holes were tapped for all simple bolt holes and a counterbore with a mild interfearance fit for the bolt holes containing the trans dowels.The engine holes were drilled 0.5mm oversize with a counter sunk head, and a mild interfearance fit for the bolt holes containing the engine dowels.

After making the steel adapter it fit up like a factory part and aligned perfectly using both engine dowels and both trans dowels. I am pleased this was the method I used as it's been 2 years and no problems, just works!

Ryan

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I'm glad that method worked out for you, I may use a similar method to build a V6 adapter but use a VW trans for the initial adapter plate, then find perfect center between the engine and toyota trans with the dial indicator method....I'd be interested to know what your total runout is, seeing as how the accepted limit is .005" between the crank and input it doesn't take much added up error to make paper thin sum, but I'm sure it's way closer than what I had .... I did finally got mine sorted tonight ...on my truck I got the total runout to .005" so .0025 offset from center ...then I moved the entire rig to the ALH on the shop floor and it came out so close to zero the needle barely moved!! .... ....I then moved it to a 1Z short block and it came out around .032" total so .016" out ....so there is enough variation between blocks to warrant setting the plate up on a per engine/adapter plate basis.... this method of finding center has me thinking I can easily make/setup my next adapter plate for the V6 bell without much trouble at all ...

Ok, so really contacting jeff in this situation would in general do nothing at all considering the variations in the block are so marginal?

89vr6 said:

Ok, so really contacting jeff in this situation would in general do nothing at all considering the variations in the block are so marginal?

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he really should be made aware of the issue ... of the three blocks i tested with the new acme adapter plate none came within range to even adjust to center... in other words the slop was all in the wrong direction, away from center.... this necessitates drilling the bell housing holes large enough to correct the off center condition.... my truck is pretty much dead on now (from .0425" out) using my centering jig and the trans is removable/reinstallable with accurate repeatability because i added dowel pins ... if you would like to borrow my rig to check/center your trans to the ACME plate let me know and i'll fill you in on how i did mine ... it will only work for w/g series trannies though, so if you have an R series you'll need to source the appropriate R series case or take your trans apart and use that ....

ok, but you'll have to explain this all to me, do you think that's what caused the clutches to fry?

89vr6 said:

ok, but you'll have to explain this all to me, do you think that's what caused the clutches to fry?

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it certainly could have contributed, although i never "fried" any clutches, but could slip them on torque rise every time ... the last clutch I installed (aisin ctx107/dtx136) the slipping was caused by something different, although related to the misalignment, in short it's back in and working great again .... I'll post a detailed explanation in my tacoma build ....

jimbote said:

yes the VR, the five cylinder and the four banger are all different but the bell housing incorporates all of these patterns into the flange ...take a closer look at all those holes !! ...looks like swiss cheese !!

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After speaking with the guys responsible for getting this bellhousing made. It does NOT fit VR. He sent them a cut of a 1.8t block and of a 2.7t.

They got it going because they wanted to make a RWD drag car.

You are not using a VR anyway, so it does not effect you though

but this might. Quicktime said "once we have the engine pattern, we can make it fit any transmission in the world"

onlyn8v said:

After speaking with the guys responsible for getting this bellhousing made. It does NOT fit VR. He sent them a cut of a 1.8t block and of a 2.7t.
They got it going because they wanted to make a RWD drag car.
You are not using a VR anyway, so it does not effect you though
but this might. Quicktime said "once we have the engine pattern, we can make it fit any transmission in the world"

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i just found the thread where this thing was created ... looks no VR6 fitment unless you use the 022103551А adapter plate ... although most of the vendors advertising the quicktime state it fits vw 4 cyl and vr6... i guess they have it wrong ... quicktime/lakewood site says nothing about VR fitment ... thanks for the clarification !

EDIT... i just downloaded the quicktime catalog and it does indeed specify vr6 fitment ...i'll contact them this week to clarify ... i sure would be pissed if i bought this for a vr6 to rwd conversion and it did not fit

I would be kind of angry if I ordered it for a vr6 swap and it didn't work. Somewhat off topic, but I met a guy last year, that made his own adapter plate, and put a turbo vr6 into his mazda rx7. It was a pretty cool setup.

samuraitd said:

I would be kind of angry if I ordered it for a vr6 swap and it didn't work. Somewhat off topic, but I met a guy last year, that made his own adapter plate, and put a turbo vr6 into his mazda rx7. It was a pretty cool setup.

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that would be sick!... i've driven all the rx series cars and aside from the turbo they are all torque-less wonders .... a vr would certainly remedy that

Here is his build thread. He measured a tracker bellhousing for me when I was trying to make my own tdi to tracker adapter, but it never came out right unfortunately. He is still harpin on me because my samurai isn't finished yet lol. He has blown at least two vr6 motors so far too.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6100923-Project-VRX-7-A-VRT-FC3S

I spoke to jeff (aka acme adapter) face to face in Portland, Oregon this past December. I mentioned this "finding" and asked if he had been made aware of the issue and he said he'd heard nothing.

lews930 said:

I spoke to jeff (aka acme adapter) face to face in Portland, Oregon this past December. I mentioned this "finding" and asked if he had been made aware of the issue and he said he'd heard nothing.

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i never called him because the plate is what it is ... the design of the plate makes it nearly impossible to have perfect crank center on every block because the plate uses countersunk bolts to hold it to the block, add to that block variance and the design really can't be improved much at all

great video that illustrates how to determine concentricity of the crank and input ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tS4H4oImDhE

Hey Jim I sent you a PM.