Touadreg Buyback/Trade Mess - Help!

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
My car's a 2013 Touareg Lux TDI with 9,000 miles on it (not a typo; I'm pretty old, and my wife drives me around in her car except when I get the "urge"), bought new by me in 2013.

I've been sent multiple form letters by VW of America and have carved a new hole in the Internet trying to figure out where I stand - or where my car stands - in this incredible emissions cheat fracas. Does anyone know for a fact when the deadline is for VW to come up with a "fix" - or not - on my 3.0 liter Gen 2? It seems to me that the court(s) moving the goalposts.

Everywhere I go - the court documents, VW of America, car magazine articles, you name it - seems to tell a different story. One supposedly reliable source even said the fix/not fix date was all the way out to late 2019!

Maybe I'm just having too many "senior moments", but ANY insights at all would be deeply appreciated.
 

scrubber

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
Happy Valley, OR
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI
11/8/17 is a "decision date" on a repair for your generation Touareg. VW may be allowed a 90 day extension, if the court grants it. If no fix is approved at that point, VW must pay $500 per vehicle, per month.

It's all on page 31 here
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/Notices/VW 3L Settlement Notice.pdf

I've heard nothing of VW getting an approval on any sort of fix for any generation of the 3.0, yet.
 
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jcart

Veteran Member
Joined
May 17, 2015
Location
Kamloops, BC
TDI
2012 Touareg TDi Malone Stage 2, Rawtek.
11/8/17 is a "decision date" on a repair for your generation Touareg. VW may be allowed a 90 day extension, if the court grants it. If no fix is approved at that point, VW must pay $500 per vehicle, per month.

It's all on page 31 here
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/Notices/VW 3L Settlement Notice.pdf

I've heard nothing of VW getting an approval on any sort of fix for any generation of the 3.0, yet.
Thanks for the Link scrubber... interesting read, like you... well actually more so I've heard nothing in Canada at all.

Love our 12 Touareg too.

Thanx again,

j
 

deepseafortydog

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Location
TX
TDI
2014 Sportwagen, 2011 Touareg TDI
We are currently in the settlement process with VAG for our '11 Treg TDI. After going onto their website, they gave us a few options. Full buyback for $35k USD was one option. I did not see any "fix" option, because from what VW told us, they don't currently have an option that can fix the 3.0l ECU to meet or exceed the EPA standard (which in my opinion is extreme overkill). Saying this, I don't have the time to engage in any online debates about the politics of the US EPA and their discrimination of diesel powered vehicles - its simply an opinion founded by observation of consistent EPA misrepresentation (read: lowering) of TDI fuel economy ratings - among other shady EPA dealings I have read about. Both my '01 and '00 Jetta TDI's have consistently exceeded the EPA economy ratings by 2-5 mpg - while three Prius owners I personally know have reported their vehicles get mpg consistently less than EPA ratings of their cars.

However, I digress. The option we chose was the cash payment incentive of around $9k USD. We felt that was the best option because in Florida diesel vehicles are not inspected. Besides, we love our Treg and don't want to part with it.


Links from VW:
https://claims.vwgoa.com/

Please click on the links below to learn more about the processes for different remedy types:
- Process Overview Buyback, Trade-In or Early Lease Termination https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/HowTo/3.0Gen1_CustomerBuyback_EarlyLease.pdf
- Process Overview Approved Emissions Modification https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/HowTo/3.0Gen1_CustomerAEMO.pdf
- Trade-In Process Best Practices https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/HowTo/TDI_Audi_New_Vehicle_051917_2.pdf
 
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TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
My thanks to all for your insights! But as things would have it, the questions have answered themselves. Last Monday week EPA/CARB approved a full modification fix for my class of Touareg (Gen. 2, in the court's terms), so it's all over but the shouting. Because VW was (apparently) able to do that, the buy-back and trade-in options are officially off the table. No choice but to go for the fix, and the word from VWgoa.com is that it's a 100% software fix... no hard parts.

(I confess, that bothers me a little. If it's just been software all along, why all the dim forecasts that nothing could be done about it, "probably"?) That is, would VW dare to try to pull another fast one? With this fix, they saved an estimate US$1 billion (vs. buy-backs), so it might be worth the risk to some types of mentalities. We'll see. However, I'm told that it might be as early as late November when dealerships will have the software upgrades and training done. I have no other options, so what the heck. I DO like the car!

As a kind of "post script", though, the car's currently in the shop for the second time due to a computer issue involving wheel speed sensors. Scary stuff! First the ABS light comes on with a "trouble" message. Then the parking brake and another message, then yet another warning... something about the headlight array. Then the power goes flat. First time it was for about two blocks in heavy traffic, second time only a block or so, but still... humm. The repair is covered by my extended warranty, but now I'm concerned about driving any long distance. VW dealerships are pretty rare, and in N. Florida - where I'd go - nonexistent.

Just a word to the wise. The service guy I spoke with told me it's a pretty common problem with the later model Touaregs, so if you experience any of those symptoms, you might save time by telling the service writer it's probably the wheel speed sensor on one of the wheels (assuming AWD).

Again, thanks for your input! I really do appreciate it.

Best regards,

Frank
 
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NoobyT

Veteran Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Location
N/A
TDI
N/A
I'd wait quite a while before letting VW do "the fix" on my car until others have reported on what "the fix" does to their cars.

Dieselgate fixes on smaller engined VW Tdis elsewhere have, for some, totally spoilt the drivability of their car with poorer fuel consumption, rougher tickover and more diesel clatter.

Some with autoboxes have said their gearchanges are lumpy or snatching too and greatly regret letting VW do "the fix".

Once done, VW will not reverse it.
 

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
Well, NoobyT, now you've gone and done it. Another monkey wrench in the works. But...

As I mentioned, the emergence of a "fix" right out the blue, in the nick o' time, "bothers me a little", particularly since it saves VW around $1 billion by some estimates. Even to Larry Ellison or that fellow currently occupying the White House, $1 billion is a bit more than just walkin' around money.

Could it possibly be enough to tempt VW to have another go at a scam? I do observe, by the way, that the online sample Agreement contains a "Release of Liability" some 4 pages long requiring notarization, two witnesses and the Seal of Moses in hot Bronze stating that once the "penalty" (they call it a "restitution") is paid and the car "fixed", VW is released from all further liability in the matter until the Judgment Day or the End of Time, whichever comes first.

That is, in plain Saxon/Danish/Norse/Norman English, once you accept a possibly Faustian deal for the sake of being sure you're close to the front of the line for the sake of US$7,500 or so in "Restitution", you could find yourself in possession of a 2 1/2 tonne pile of scrap metal that occasionally moves on command.

Your advice is sound. The FINAL final date for an owner's decision is sometime in late 2019 (although I'll triple-check that). Until then, I'll just keep on truckin' - but with an eye on the rear view mirror to be sure troops of Boy Scouts or klatches of nuns aren't falling over in heaps, gasping in clouds of nitrogen-whatever in my wake.

Thanks. Very good advice.
 

showdown 42

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Location
naples,FL
TDI
2016 TDI touareg
Thanks for the info on the buyback/fix issue. I have gone in now for the fix and restitution,but we will see. Still can't find a substitute for the TREG that will be anything like what we have now. I just drove 1500 miles on a bit more than 2 tanks of fuel.
 

Marshfield

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Location
Marshfield, MA
TDI
2013 Touareg
OK now I'm pissed
2013 TDI Touareg
Spend hours filling our paperwork, uploads, confirmations, appointment for tomorrow 11/2/2017 "proof of ownership" and 1st payment processing of $3,300 and bosch sends an email saying $1,500 in process....and then 24 hrs ago --"The fix is in", no payments are authorized.

Then an email today canceling my appt for tomorrow from VW

So I go to the portal and it askes to make an appointment for the "Fix"--while I don't want the fix right now (Drags down performance)--I want payment # 1 and I will get payment # 2 when I have the fix done when I sell or trade....

Gypped and pissed at VW....!!

What a fiasco--not happy at all.
 

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
And It Just Got a Little Bit Worse

This from Volkswagen Group of America appeared in my Email inbox yesterday (partial quote copied and pasted verbatim):

With the approval of the ECR, Repair Participation Payments will no longer be issued for current owners and lessees of affected vehicles. Eligible Owners that have already received a Participation Payment will receive the remainder of their Repair Payment after the completion of an ECR on their vehicle, and full Repair Payments will be issued to Eligible Owners who have not received Participation Payments after they have filed a complete and valid claim and completed the ECR on their vehicle.

(ECR means "Emissions Compliant Repair".)

The language is awkward, but what it comes down to is that anyone who hasn't already gone through the entire ECR approval process AND already received the 1/2 "participation (penalty) payment" is SOL for that 1/2 up-front payment.

From now on, all penalty payments will be made (presumably!) only after the ECR is completed. I.e., no more "1/2 up front" unless you've already received it.

What's next? How much more whittling will be done? I see the grubby fingerprints of legalboy all over this thing, and am sorely tempted to think VW is engaged in yet another con job. More on that later.
 

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
Let's Back Up the Truck a Bit

Why the emissions cheat in the first place? That seems easy enough. There's no doubt that diesels get better fuel mileage than gasoline engines, and usually have more torque per pound of curb weight as well. So VW decided to hit the market with diesels priced at or lower than competitive gasoline models, relying on the lure of better gas mileage with no loss - and in fact, improvements in some cases - of performance.
 
Trouble is, diesels emit too much nitrogen oxide. Hence the software to detect "test conditions" and cheat on the test. But... caught by EPA and CARB. Cat outta the bag. Big trouble.

That was "the story so far", until a couple of weeks ago.
 
Now the court has approved a "software only" fix for Generation 2 Touaregs (those built from 2013 through 2016). No hardware changes. Just software!
 
What's wrong with this picture? Well, the court's previous rulings are based on no "significant" loss of fuel mileage and power for a fix to be approved. I haven't seen, anywhere, a definition of "significant". (Perhaps someone else has?)
 
So here's the nagging question. IF VW could come up with a truly "clean diesel" with the mileage and performance of my Touareg just by tinkering with the software, WHY DIDN'T THEY DO SO IN THE FIRST PLACE??

Why go to all the trouble and expense of designing and installing a "cheat system" for a new model when software to control nitous oxide emissions was within reach the whole time? (Such is the implication of the current "fix", unless one subscribes to the notion that software programmers have become much "smarter" during the past several years.)
 
Something's rotten in the state of... Germany. I don't believe in this "software only" fix for one nanosecond. I don't claim to know much about motors - and even less about thermodyamics - but I'm pretty danged sure that effective emissions suppression via "software only" is impossible. The hardware to burn off, soak up or alter the chemical nature of exhaust emissions simply has to be present.
 
It's hard to believe that VW would put its head in the potential noose (again) with yet another form of cheat, but a billion bucks is a powerful incentive. Think of all the multi-million Deutschmark salaries, the stock options, the golden parachute contracts at stake!
 
 

showdown 42

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Location
naples,FL
TDI
2016 TDI touareg
ALL OF THIS IS REALLY DUMB. VW has a death wish with NA sales. You would have to stay up late at night to confuse your clients more. I for one am sitting still and wait for the smoke to clear. I have a 2012 TREG with 54k miles and live in a non emissions state. I don't have a thing I have to do for a while. I am sure not trading it in for any SUV VW is currently offering.
 

cevans

TDIClub Enthusiast, TDI Parts Ninja Vendor , w/Bus
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Location
Hingham, MA
TDI
2015 Beetle Conv. TDI 6-Speed & 2006 E320 CDI
Something's rotten in the state of... Germany. I don't believe in . I don't claim to know much about motors - and even less about thermodyamics - but I'm pretty danged sure that effective emissions suppression via "software only" is impossible. The hardware to burn off, soak up or alter the chemical nature of exhaust emissions simply has to be present.
 
Not to be smug - but your claim about not knowing much about motors rings true here. :) (yes, that was very smug, sorry)

The 2013+ versions have the necessary equipment, but the calibration isn’t correct. Emissions are a trade off of performance, efficiency and pollutants, so, systems turn on an off constantly as you drive. Dosing of DEF goes up and down. EGR valves adjust, timing changes, etc etc. The Touareg is a fast vehicle that gets great MPGs all things considered. VW programmed the engine to make that happen, but fudged the emissions systems to do it.

The Touareg ‘cheat’ was not nearly as flagrant as the Gen 1 cheat, so, the trucks can be fixed without much change.
 

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
ALL OF THIS IS REALLY DUMB. VW has a death wish with NA sales. You would have to stay up late at night to confuse your clients more. I for one am sitting still and wait for the smoke to clear. I have a 2012 TREG with 54k miles and live in a non emissions state. I don't have a thing I have to do for a while. I am sure not trading it in for any SUV VW is currently offering.
Florida - where I live - has emissions regulations, but doesn't enforce them or perform tests. (We used to do testing, but with summer heat about 7 months out of the year, waiting in line for hours baking under the hot sun was a prescription for a riot.)

So I think I may agree with your approach. According to my last conversation with a rep at VWgoa - and making the leaping assumption that they're not BSing again - the absolute final date (currently) for a "fix" on the Gen 2 Touaregs is 4-30-20.
 

TouaregCryer

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2013 Touareg Lux
Not to be smug - but your claim about not knowing much about motors rings true here. :) (yes, that was very smug, sorry)
If you're going to be smug, I'd recommend that you not start by claiming not to be and then being smug anyway. Just a thought. But I'm a big boy, and I can take it :) (We all have areas of expertise. Ask me how to make a triple-fluted column overlap in walnut without a router kickout :rolleyes:)

All kidding aside, thanks for the info about the Gen 2 vs. the Gen 1 Touaregs. I suppose I should be reassured - and I partly am- but the post-fix extent of fuel efficiency and/or power loss remains to be seen, don't you think?

Not that we can do anything about it! But... I don't think we've seen the end of this; so I - for one - won't be signing any "releases of liability" until I've gotten feedback, and a lot of it, from folks who've undergone the "fix". If the post-fix Gen 2 Touareg turns out to be a fuel-guzzling clunker, I'm prepared to jump ship on the class action suit and file one of my own.

Free enterprise, caveat emptor and all that aside... I do not like to be cheated.
 

psd1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Location
OR
TDI
2006 Jetta 2013 Passat SE 6Man
Actually, your 13 Touareg will need some hard parts, my dads 15...software only. :)
 

DieselGator

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2014
Location
USA - MA
TDI
2014 Touareg Special X Edition
For the 2013-2014 TDIs, the fix includes hardware and software changes:

It is described here:
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/wp..._2-1_FINAL.pdf

"During the modification, your authorized
Volkswagen dealer will also install updated emissions control system
hardware components - specifically a new Selective Catalyst Reduction
system, new Cylinder Pressure Sensor and a new Particulate Matter
Sensor"

So 2 sensors, and "Selective Catalyst Reduction System" - I assumed this was just a Catalytic Converter? - but the 'system' part has we wondering?
 
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