New Audi e-fuels Project: e-diesel from Air, Water and Green Electricity

TDIMeister · Nov 17, 2014

The sunfire plant, which operates according to the power-to-liquid principle, requires carbon dioxide, water and electricity as raw materials. The carbon dioxide is extracted directly from the ambient air using direct air capturing – a technology developed by Swiss partner Climeworks.

In a separate process, an electrolysis unit powered with green electricity splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then reacted with the carbon dioxide in two chemical processes conducted at 220 degrees Celsius and a pressure of 25 bar to produce an energetic liquid, made up of hydrocarbon compounds, which is called Blue Crude. This process is up to 70 percent efficient.

As currently built, the pilot plant on the sunfire grounds in Dresden-Reick can produce approximately 160 liters of Blue Crude per day. Nearly 80 percent of that can be converted into synthetic diesel. This fuel – Audi e‑diesel – is free of sulfur and aromatics. It also has a high cetane number, which means that it ignites very easily. Its chemical properties allow it to be blended in any ratio with fossil diesel. This means that it can be used as a drop-in fuel.

atc98002 · Nov 17, 2014

With electrolysis involved, I can't believe this could be cost effective. That's the major issue with Fuel Cell cars right now. That, and the cost of the fuel cell itself!

TDIMeister · Nov 17, 2014

The major issue with fuel cells is the transport of hydrogen and the availability/retail cost of that hydrogen. Hydrogen is produced in vast quantities in industry (mostly by reforming natural gas), but its production by electrolysis is not necessarily cost prohibitive if the energy source itself is not cost prohibitive. The particular issue with hydrogen for use in FCEVs is that it is not the same industrial grade that is 98-99% pure; fuel cells are tolerant to only in the parts-per-billion scale of certain impurities before it poisons the stack. Obviously, getting that level of purity is very expensive to produce and that cost gets passed on ultimately to the end-user unless subsidized in some way. When produced and used in an industrial process with higher tolerance for impurity, the cost is not a big issue. Therefore, the hydrogen cost issue is largely moot for the e-Diesel process. If the total process efficiency is 70% as claimed, this means that for each megajoule or kWh or million-BTU -- whatever unit you choose -- in hydrogen energy, at least 1.4X of this quantity needs to be supplied. That's actually a very good figure...

VeeDubTDI · Nov 17, 2014

Time to install heliostats and a solar power tower at the plant for generating electricity!

I also think they should do this in the desert for water desalination. The problem is choosing a location that is vacant (desert) and close enough to sea water to pump it to the plant.

puntmeister · Nov 17, 2014

One of the issues with large solar plants, as pictured by Vdub above, is the desert locations where they are viable are far away from large population centers. The high cost of transmission lines, and transmission losses, curtail their viability.

However, with a "solar-to-liquid" plant, a lot of power can be packed into a tank shipped on a truck on train. No more need for transmission lines. And no need to worry about the issue of peak production versus peak demand associated with the power grid.

The core driver will be ways to produce solar plants as dirt-cheap as possible.

erbilabuc · Nov 18, 2014

VeeDubTDI said:
Time to install heliostats and a solar power tower at the plant for generating electricity!

I also think they should do this in the desert for water desalination. The problem is choosing a location that is vacant (desert) and close enough to sea water to pump it to the plant.

I've personally seen those right outside of vegas, NV- 29 palms, CA and Palm Springs, CA. Looks like a prison from far away.

VeeDubTDI · Nov 18, 2014

I was going to make a detour on my most recent road trip to sight see a few of these solar plants, but it was too far out of my way and I was running out of time.

This subject is fascinating to me. I think it's great that we're discussing green fuel production with green energy. It's a big step from burning diesel fuel to dig coal out of the ground to generate power to refine crude oil to make diesel fuel.

SFHGolfTDI · Jan 23, 2015

Audi Creates Synthetic Diesel Out of Just Air and Water

Huh? Anyone have more info on this?

http://wot.motortrend.com/1411_audi...r=128475818944&sm_id=social_20141118_35817547

jhinsc · Jan 24, 2015

Reading the comments at the end of the article, you would think this will never become a viable source of fuel. But looking to hydrogen powered car, remember how bulky the first systems were - almost as big as a house, and now Toyota is starting the first mass-produced car - if you can call it that, that runs on hydrogen. But reading the article, one would think it takes as much or more power (electricity) to produce, than the amount of energy the fuel would provide. But it would be cool one day to just fill up your tank with a water hose and drive off!

puntmeister · Jan 29, 2015

Hydrogen isn't an energy source, its an energy storage medium (a battery of sorts).

Common journalism on the subject fails miserably to explain this reality.

lovemybug · Apr 26, 2015

Audi working on renewable diesel

http://www.gizmag.com/audi-creates-e-diesel-from-co2/37130/

Buckwild90 · Apr 27, 2015

this is pretty kool, although i will say that i think the new propel renewable diesel is a more feasible and less expensive way to greate renewablediesel albeit with just a hair more emissions. i want to write a letter to propel and get them to start selling their renewable diesel everywhere

saucer · Apr 27, 2015

Audi have successfully made diesel fuel from carbon dioxide and water.

http://www.sciencealert.com/audi-have-successfully-made-diesel-fuel-from-air-and-water

If this continues to develop and ends up hitting the market, what will this "e-diesel" mean for current and past-generation diesel engines?

lapse · Apr 27, 2015

Audi creates green 'e-diesel fuel of the future' using just carbon dioxide and water

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/audi-creat...uture-using-just-carbon-dioxide-water-1498524

maybe368 · Apr 27, 2015

VeeDubTDI said:
Time to install heliostats and a solar power tower at the plant for generating electricity!

I also think they should do this in the desert for water desalination. The problem is choosing a location that is vacant (desert) and close enough to sea water to pump it to the plant.

The biggest and strongest hurdle to any solar project is the opposition of big oil, big power, big mining and any other big corporation with a stake in energy. If all the money that was thrown away on now dead nuclear power plants had been invested into solar, we would have affordable and viable solar power generation. IMHO lobbying should either be banned (not gonna happen) or at least done in public, so that we can all see the politicos selling their souls and their votes. If that were to happen, they may think twice about it. Rant officially over...Mark

BigAndy · Apr 27, 2015

Audi develops Blue Diesel

https://www.audi-mediaservices.com/...tteilungen/2015/04/21/fuel_of_the_future.html

Not sure what else to say that isn't in the article, but Audi has successfully produced some 'Blue Diesel', a synthetic diesel fuel.

Pretty exciting.

atc98002 · Apr 27, 2015

maybe368 said:
The biggest and strongest hurdle to any solar project is the opposition of big oil, big power, big mining and any other big corporation with a stake in energy. If all the money that was thrown away on now dead nuclear power plants had been invested into solar, we would have affordable and viable solar power generation. IMHO lobbying should either be banned (not gonna happen) or at least done in public, so that we can all see the politicos selling their souls and their votes. If that were to happen, they may think twice about it. Rant officially over...Mark

I did an aviation analysis over Ivanpah, and it amazed the California Energy Commission how many aircraft overfly that power plant. Close to 10,000 a month, if I remember correctly. There are many pilot complaints about the glare. That could be a factor for future construction projects. I did another analysis over a different location where one is planned, and again there's a lot of overflights. I seriously doubt they can find a place there isn't much, unless they go to North Dakota. Not sure how well a solar plant will do there!

DeliveryValve · Apr 27, 2015

Report: Audi engineers have successfully made diesel fuel from carbon dioxide and wat

http://www.sciencealert.com/audi-have-successfully-made-diesel-fuel-from-air-and-water

German car manufacturer Audi has reportedly invented a carbon-neutral diesel fuel, made solely from water, carbon dioxide and renewable energy sources. And the crystal clear 'e-diesel' is already being used to power the Audi A8 owned by the country’s Federal Minister of Education and Research, Johanna Wanka.

The creation of the fuel is a huge step forward for sustainable transport, but the fact that it’s being backed by an automotive giant is even more exciting. Audi has now set up a pilot plant in Dresden, Germany, operated by clean tech company Sunfire, which will pump out 160 litres of the synthetic diesel every day in the coming months.

Their base product, which they’re calling 'blue crude' is created using a three-step process. The first step involves harvesting renewable energy from sources such as wind, solar and hydropower. They then use this energy to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen, using a process known as reversible electrolysis.

This hydrogen is then mixed with carbon monoxide (CO), which is created from carbon dioxide (CO2) that’s been harvested from the atmosphere. The two react at high temperatures and under pressure, resulting in the production of the long-chain hydrocarbon compounds that make up the blue crude.

Once it's been refined, the resulting e-diesel can be mixed in with our current diesel fuel, or used on its own to power cars in a more sustainable way.

Sunfire analyses have shown that the synthetic fuel is not only more environmentally friendly, but also has superior combustion when compared to fossil fuels. The overall energy efficiency of the e-diesel is 70 percent, they report.

"The engine runs quieter and fewer pollutants are being created," said Sunfire Chief Technology Officer Christian von Olshausen in a press release.

Of course, with the initial factory only pumping out around 160 litres each day, the fuel isn’t going to have a huge impact on the market just yet. But Audi and Sunfire now want to build a bigger factory, and anticipate that once production is scaled up, the e-diesel will sell to the public for between 1 and 1.50 Euros per litre, dependent on the cost of renewable electricity.

With traditional diesel currently on the market for upwards of 1.50 Euros per litre in Germany, this would make the fuel extremely competitive, and perfectly positioned to made sustainable travel accessible to everyone. "If we get the first sales order, we will be ready to commercialise our technology", said von Olshausen.

Just imagine being able to tear around the countryside in an Audi sportscar, and not having to feel guilty for all the CO2 emissions you're producing. We can't wait.

Link to Audi press release:

mike · Apr 28, 2015

Audi Introduces Synthetic Diesel Fuel

Audi announced it has created the first batch of liquid "e-diesel" at a research facility in Dresden. The clear fuel is produced through a "power to liquid" process, masterminded by the German clean tech company and Audi partner Sunfire.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/28/technology/audi-diesel-air-water/?iid=TL_Popular

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 28, 2015

Already posted here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=428344

autdi · May 5, 2015

What was more intriguing was the A8 being listed as getting 39.9MPG at the bottom of the Audi press release.

maybe368 · May 5, 2015

atc98002 said:
I did an aviation analysis over Ivanpah, and it amazed the California Energy Commission how many aircraft overfly that power plant. Close to 10,000 a month, if I remember correctly. There are many pilot complaints about the glare. That could be a factor for future construction projects. I did another analysis over a different location where one is planned, and again there's a lot of overflights. I seriously doubt they can find a place there isn't much, unless they go to North Dakota. Not sure how well a solar plant will do there!

I've known several professional and military pilots and they would love to live in a perfect world. It seems like a problem that a good pair of Oakleys would solve and they all own them already. They could put the plants far enough out that most of them would be on autopilot anyways. All said with part of tongue in cheek. It just seems that there must be an easy solution to the glare problem. I would rather have the airlines dip into their profits to develop an anti-glare windshield or something, than give up on solar. They could use 1% of their baggage fees and do it ..Mark

atc98002 · May 5, 2015

maybe368 said:
I've known several professional and military pilots and they would love to live in a perfect world. It seems like a problem that a good pair of Oakleys would solve and they all own them already. They could put the plants far enough out that most of them would be on autopilot anyways. All said with part of tongue in cheek. It just seems that there must be an easy solution to the glare problem. I would rather have the airlines dip into their profits to develop an anti-glare windshield or something, than give up on solar. They could use 1% of their baggage fees and do it ..Mark

Yeah, I really wonder if it's really that big a deal to pilots. I've ridden in the cockpit jump seat in the past, and flying eastbound on an early morning departure has the sun directly in your face. Doubt those mirrors have that much glare! between sunglasses and glare shields mounted in the cockpit, I didn't see it bother the pilots much.

When flying into Las Vegas last December, I glanced out my window and I could see the mirror arrays far off in the distance. Of course, the angle I was at compared to the site meant all I saw was a slight brightness on the surface. I expect time-of-day and position make a great deal of difference in any glare.

maybe368 · May 5, 2015

atc98002 said:
Yeah, I really wonder if it's really that big a deal to pilots. I've ridden in the cockpit jump seat in the past, and flying eastbound on an early morning departure has the sun directly in your face. Doubt those mirrors have that much glare! between sunglasses and glare shields mounted in the cockpit, I didn't see it bother the pilots much.

When flying into Las Vegas last December, I glanced out my window and I could see the mirror arrays far off in the distance. Of course, the angle I was at compared to the site meant all I saw was a slight brightness on the surface. I expect time-of-day and position make a great deal of difference in any glare.

I completely understand if you can't answer this, but I have to ask, Who funded the study that you did? I wonder if it was the anti-solar industry looking for all the ammo they can to shoot it down with. I am such a cynic

...Mark

atc98002 · May 8, 2015

maybe368 said:
I completely understand if you can't answer this, but I have to ask, Who funded the study that you did? I wonder if it was the anti-solar industry looking for all the ammo they can to shoot it down with. I am such a cynic ...Mark

Nah, wasn't funded by anyone. Just one government agency (California Dept of Energy) asking another government agency (FAA) for some information. That's all I gave them, just raw information.

maybe368 · May 8, 2015

atc98002 said:
Nah, wasn't funded by anyone. Just one government agency (California Dept of Energy) asking another government agency (FAA) for some information. That's all I gave them, just raw information.

Well, there goes my last conspiracy theory now that Survivor man can't find Big Foot...Mark

New Audi e-fuels Project: e-diesel from Air, Water and Green Electricity

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