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tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Yup, old news . . . . and also, the phase-2 fix is *NOT* unknown - it was submitted with phase-1 to get approval. It replaces the DPF/NOx filters and adds a sensor . . . . fully documented if you take the time to look. It is mainly to address longevity concerns of the parts, and that is also why it is not yet available - very few cars are at the mileage to need it, so it makes zero sense to build huge stock in parts inventory not yet needed.
 
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1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
tadawson, the only 'old' news I am hearing from dealers is that anything and everything is on the table for the fix.

The worst case scenario of a no warranty vehicle is reason enough for us not to buy-I believe this position to be delusional , others do not and that is fine.
 

demagxc

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SEL
Sounds like the dealers you are talking to don't have any idea of what they are talking about. The fix has been approved and we are just waiting on implementation. We know exactly what it is...
Emissions Modification Phase 2 :
(available beginning in early 2018 )
The second part of the emissions modification will involve outfitting your
car with new emission control parts to ensure system reliability and
durability over time. If your car exceeds 40,000 miles (for automatic
transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for manual transmissions) we will install
updated emissions control system hardware - specifically a new Diesel
Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and Selective Catalytic
Reduction Converter - that is needed to maintain emissions
performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle. As
part of the Phase 2 modification, we will also install a second NOx
sensor and corresponding software to improve the performance of the
OBD system. The Phase 2 updates are expected to have no further
impact on overall vehicle reliability, durability, fuel economy, engine
sound, performance, or drivability.
You will receive a notice when Phase 2 of the emissions modification is
available for your vehicle. You should expect to receive this notice
before June 30, 2019. If your vehicle has accumulated fewer than
40,000 miles (for automatic transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for
manual transmissions) at the time of your Phase 2 update, your car will
need to have the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst replaced a second time,
before it reaches 150,000 miles. We will notify you when it is time to
bring your car in for the second catalyst replacement.
These updates will be made available at no cost to you starting in early
2018. A complimentary loaner vehicle will be available for the duration
of this modification, which is expected to take approximately 9 hours.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
tadawson, the only 'old' news I am hearing from dealers is that anything and everything is on the table for the fix.

The worst case scenario of a no warranty vehicle is reason enough for us not to buy-I believe this position to be delusional , others do not and that is fine.
The dealers are imbeciles, and spew nonsense. Read the legal documents that bind them all to the same exact terms. *That* is the only accurate information out there. It's 100% defined, no matter what delusions the dealer may be suffering, and backed by the court. The ability to register in all states that have taken settlement funding is an absolute, and the ink is dry . . .
 
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scooperhsd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas City KS
TDI
NB, 2000, RED(5 Speed conversion) 2015 Golf SE
There are only 6 states that did NOT take the settlement money. All others (including CA, NY) did and are required to allow registration on your 2009+ TDI for as long as it passes everything else not related to the fixes.
 

CHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 4D DSG (gone buyback)
Originally Posted by sohccammer427:
So the net effect of this entire sorted fiasco is a net positive for the environment? Seems to me just building a complete new vehicle to replace one already in existence would create more environmental havoc. But I digress...
That's not the issue. The issue is that VW broke the law and intentionally attempted to cover it up, and is being slammed hard for doing so.
Don't confuse penalty and remedy. Penalty is making VW cough up $15 billion for their corporate bad behavior. Remedy is taking >85% of cheating TDIs off the road or repairing them to meet a court-ordered emissions standard.

Would the remedy have been better for the environment if VW were allowed to make the cheap European emissions fix and pay us each double the restitution amount (varies with vehicle value, but a minimum $5,100 in the settlement IIRC) if we were to keep our high-mpg, low-emissions (except NOx) cars? The cost (penalty) to VW would be the same, TDI owners would be happy pocketing a minimum of $10,000 (much more on newer TDIs) and keeping their car for continued driving or resale, and TDIs would serve out their useful life without the need to generate pollution and greenhouse gases to manufacture another (likely lower mpg) car to replace them. In other words, the settlement could have made it more attractive to keep your car than sending it to the crusher and might have been better for the environment. Without EPA performing an environmental analysis, we don't know, but sending 300,000 high-mpg cars to the crusher sure seems like a waste.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Go back in time. At the time the agreement was made, it wasn't known IF there was going to be a "fix" of ANY sort. With what was known at the time that the agreement was made, a buyback had to be part of the plan.

We didn't know then what we know now ... but the agreement back then had to be made with what was known at the time.

Hindsight always has 20/20 vision. I don't know about your crystal ball, but mine is not so clear.
 

1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
GoFaster, you are correct the States will all use the settlement money for its intended purpose-no State will refuse to re register any TDI without an additional 'impact' fee and the final mods will not affect the cars in any appreciable manner.

Did you know that Putin owns 85% of the worlds DEF production? and that -they- did hack into the ecm of every TDI while it was being tested!!
 

demagxc

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SEL
GoFaster, you are correct the States will all use the settlement money for its intended purpose-no State will refuse to re register any TDI without an additional 'impact' fee and the final mods will not affect the cars in any appreciable manner.

Did you know that Putin owns 85% of the worlds DEF production? and that -they- did hack into the ecm of every TDI while it was being tested!!
I have no idea what you are even arguing anymore. We have posted and cited documents stating exactly what is going on and what has been agreed to. Your response to real info is baseless conspiracy theory and hand waving. If you don't trust the settlement terms or the government to hold up its end of the deal dont buy a TDI.
 

CHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 4D DSG (gone buyback)
Go back in time. At the time the agreement was made, it wasn't known IF there was going to be a "fix" of ANY sort. With what was known at the time that the agreement was made, a buyback had to be part of the plan.

We didn't know then what we know now ... but the agreement back then had to be made with what was known at the time.

Hindsight always has 20/20 vision. I don't know about your crystal ball, but mine is not so clear.
Going back in time, the European fix was detailed in November 2015, only 2 months after the scandal broke and 5 months before the U.S. settlement was announced. Given the terms in the settlement, structure of the buyback, and lack of U.S. EPA/CARB-approved fix at the time the settlement was published, my crystal ball said that hundreds of thousands of TDIs would be crushed--an opinion I sent as a comment to the court and one I continue to stand behind.

I have no problem with the buyback, but there should have been better financial incentives for the fix--even the Euro fix--rather than the crusher.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
EPA and CARB were very insistent that any such "fix" be effective and not detrimental to other aspects of the vehicle. The European fix never met that criteria. There's no way a fix for such a big problem could be thrown together in three months and be properly tested and validated ... and it wasn't.
 

CHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 4D DSG (gone buyback)
EPA and CARB were very insistent that any such "fix" be effective and not detrimental to other aspects of the vehicle. The European fix never met that criteria. There's no way a fix for such a big problem could be thrown together in three months and be properly tested and validated ... and it wasn't.
But the irony of the EPA/CARB criteria and approval process is that fewer than 15% of eligible (Gen 1) vehicles will ever get the fix. EPA/CARB can pat themselves on the backs saying they got us a better fix than the Europeans, but the extra time it took ensured that hundreds of thousands of TDIs would go to the crusher.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Couldn't have predicted the future back then. People had the choice of buyback or fix. They chose. VW also had and still has (for most of them) the choice of fix and sell, or junk, and they are FAR from going through their inventory. No doubt part of *that* will depend on how many people actually go out and BUY the bought back and fixed cars ... and that is the choice of the free market. The more people buy them ... the more they'll get fixed and re-sold. If that doesn't happen in a reasonable time frame, so be it.
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
The 83% number does make me wonder what they plan to do to get that to 85%. I guess I'm one of the 2% waiting, to get the fix warranty to go as far out as possible, and won't get the fix until the fall. But as 2018 comes to a close, they have to find another 2% or come up with a boatload more cash.

That said, I have been toying with the idea of a buyback, and turn that into 2 fixed ones. Wonder if that can push to 3 at auction pricing.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
If they've gotten to 83% thus far, all they need is a trickle over the next few months, and there is certainly a segment who are attempting to wait until the last moment.
 

1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
dem, I am sincerely happy that you are completely satisfied with your car after you had the phase II fix and similarly hope everyone else is also.
 

scooperhsd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas City KS
TDI
NB, 2000, RED(5 Speed conversion) 2015 Golf SE
dem, I am sincerely happy that you are completely satisfied with your car after you had the phase II fix and similarly hope everyone else is also.

Phase II for the Gen 3 2.0 L (EA288 engines) has not been announced as available yet. I'm waiting on it as well.
 

CHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 4D DSG (gone buyback)
Couldn't have predicted the future back then. People had the choice of buyback or fix. They chose. VW also had and still has (for most of them) the choice of fix and sell, or junk, and they are FAR from going through their inventory. No doubt part of *that* will depend on how many people actually go out and BUY the bought back and fixed cars ... and that is the choice of the free market. The more people buy them ... the more they'll get fixed and re-sold. If that doesn't happen in a reasonable time frame, so be it.
Polls in this forum immediately after details of the buyback offer were made public showed little interest in the fix and a solid majority intending to go the buyback route. This is among a sample biased toward TDI enthusiasts, generally those who like their cars. The settlement was clearly biased toward buyback with little incentive to hold out for the fix.

Time will tell regarding the fate of the inventory. But your cavalier "so be it" regarding the potential destruction of nearly 300,000 functioning high-mpg vehicles says to me that you're ignoring the environmental consequences of nearly 1 billon kg of CO2 that will be generated to replace those cars; or the energy consumed to crush, shred, sort, and smelt those cars; or the possibility that some of the material in the cars will end up in landfills or even incinerated in some 3rd-world country. That's an environmental travesty of the government's making deserving of more than a flip remark.
 

1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
The only environmental 'travesty' was that VW stopped making the original TDI's-on a bad day we got 57 mpg (US) if you wanted - 62 mpg was attainable.

Sooooo CHawk-it appears that time will tell the fate of the fix also AND if the 'settlement' was -clearly- biased toward a buyback it is reasonable to presume that customer satisfaction post fix was not the priority or even the intended goal.
'
And some maintain that buying now is not a roll of the dice-'das auto' my dupa.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Polls in this forum immediately after details of the buyback offer were made public showed little interest in the fix and a solid majority intending to go the buyback route. This is among a sample biased toward TDI enthusiasts, generally those who like their cars. The settlement was clearly biased toward buyback with little incentive to hold out for the fix.

Time will tell regarding the fate of the inventory. But your cavalier "so be it" regarding the potential destruction of nearly 300,000 functioning high-mpg vehicles says to me that you're ignoring the environmental consequences of nearly 1 billon kg of CO2 that will be generated to replace those cars; or the energy consumed to crush, shred, sort, and smelt those cars; or the possibility that some of the material in the cars will end up in landfills or even incinerated in some 3rd-world country. That's an environmental travesty of the government's making deserving of more than a flip remark.

Meh, VW will fix and resell the cars they deem worthy. The rest will get crushed. Unfortunate, but the blame lies entirely with VW.

If a serial killer gets sentenced to life in prison, it might be unfortunate that his kids grow up without a father- but that's not the judges fault.
 
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1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
Interesting the data that was not posted regarding the 'fix'-VW has determined the 'useful life' of the engine to be 150k-in our previous TDI's that would have been about 2600 US gallons or an astounding 265 tankfulls, give or take.

Heck, you'd be better off with a Subaru even one with the cvt-sure you will be replacing head gaskets every other week or so but...................
 

1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
TDI
tdi less
Feeling good about pulling the trigger on that $18,000 Passat with only 26,000 on the clock?-how about that $14,000 Jetta with 52K, might just get you through school.

At a service life of 150k and roughly $2.75 per gallon/ 35 mpg for the juice-what is the cost for the vehicle and fuel per mile?

Then again you really might be very lucky to get even 35 mpg......

Das Auto or Das Dummkopf?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The 150,000 mile "life" is the prescribed lifetime of the emission control systems dictated by EPA. That's how long the emission control systems are supposed to last. In no way does this mean that the engine explodes at 150,001.
 

1.8

Active member
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not in the right place
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tdi less
No my friends you are in error, the language is clear-150,000 miles is the expected service lifetime of the -vehicle-.

However for the sake of intelligent discussion I will accept your incorrect blatantly Clintonian mindset-just how much will it cost the duped owner for emission system repairs after the warranty expires?

And remember they further admit that the draconian modifications WILL put significant additional stresses onto the engine-an engine which was never designed for these alterations-kinda sorta like chipping/increasing boost/deletes stuff like that.

Bottom line-the TDI that I knew and loved and even the TDI that the kids here knew and loved is dead-a dnr was signed and it ain't coming back-the post fix horror stories are starting and as I feared the once happy owners are completely and totally sol-all by design.

VW does have options:

I can't imagine that the worlds largest automaker (still ?) cannot convert these cars to gassers and make some profit.

Additionally the thousands and thousands of vehicles have a great deal of value; engines could easily be put to off road/marine or standby power uses-imagine the areas of the world that could have electrical power.


Owners of these models in gas would enjoy dramatically reduced parts cost with regard to collision damage

How many rolling stock could be sold to those who would transplant their own engines/gas or electric: Imagine what Tesla could do??

Really the only option which is not viable is attempting to sell these things with diesel engines or perhaps sadly trying to sell these as diesels is the only option which SHOULD NOT be viable.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
That's an EPA/CARB dictated lifetime. In no way does this mean that it will fail at 150,001 miles.

I AGREE that if and when the DPF eventually fails after the end of VW's extended warranty, it is going to be expensive, and if it happens at higher mileage it may not be economically viable to keep the car in service. But this does NOT necessarily happen at 150,001 miles. It could be 200,000. It could be 300,000. Statistics are involved which means there are no guarantees. Driving patterns are involved; some people have driving patterns that will be easier or harder on the emission control system than others.

I'm not aware of any post fix DPF failures yet. I'm sure they will eventually happen but there has not been a rash of such failures.

You have no idea what the parts and labour would cost to do complete powertrain swaps along with instrument panel swaps and fuel system swaps. And who's going to buy a vehicle like that? It's cheaper and less risk for the manufacturer to scrap it and build another car.

And selling them for DIY engine swaps? Who in the real world is going to do that, instead of just buying a complete new car with a warranty? (What company would warranty a do it yourself engine installation?) And for 300,000 of them!?! It's just not going to happen.

You have no idea what labour costs are. You have no idea what parts costs are. You have no idea of the comparison between an assembly line process and a repair shop process. You have no idea of the risks associated with repair shop processes compared to assembly line processes where parts and processes are tracked and monitored. You have no idea of legal liability in the event of failures.
 

1.8

Active member
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
Location
not in the right place
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tdi less
emissions modification Phase 2 (available beginning in early 2018)

'The second part of the emissions modification will involve outfitting your car with new emission control parts to ensure system reliability and durability over time. If your car exceeds 40,000 miles (for automatic transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for manual transmissions) we will install updated emissions control system hardware-specifically a new Diesel Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and selective Catalytic Reduction Converter-that is needed to maintain
emissions performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle'

Perhaps the problem is that a French translation is needed.

While I do NOT know the costs associated with my suggestions I am relatively certain that:

every TDI engine most likely find a use doing something for people in a country that desperately needs electricity, water, or power for industry/living or a re-power for fishing vessels or even pleasure craft here in the evil US.

that converting the vehicles to gas most probably would be cost effective

that using the rolling stock for parts might not be profitable for the Company but certainly it would be beneficial for the planet-and positively a plus for consumers

and that more than a few would purchase a complete roller and do a conversion themselves

In the end all we really know is that to buy any TDI is a massive crapshoot and financial insanity.

To pontificate to the contrary is a disservice and is demonstrable of a clear agenda-in any language.
 

demagxc

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SEL
every TDI engine most likely find a use doing something for people in a country that desperately needs electricity, water, or power for industry/living or a re-power for fishing vessels or even pleasure craft here in the evil US.
First, in order for an engine to be exported from the US, it is required to either be fixed or rendered inoperable.

Second, earlier you state that:
modifications WILL put significant additional stresses onto the engine-an engine which was never designed for
Now you are suggesting that the engine itself be utilized in a way that it was never designed for. Who would be paying for the design, implementation, and testing required to retrofit these engines for other uses? Who would be responsible if one failed and even worse, if a failure resulted in a injury or death? Its not so simple to just drop one of these engines in a boat and expect it work. There are a few threads floating around that show its not so easy. It sounds great in theory but it would be a logistical and legal nightmare to implement.

that converting the vehicles to gas most probably would be cost effective

that using the rolling stock for parts might not be profitable for the Company but certainly it would be beneficial for the planet-and positively a plus for consumers

and that more than a few would purchase a complete roller and do a conversion themselves
How would conversions on a mass scale be cost effective? Additional production of engines and retrofiring or replacement of transmission for every car, replacement of fuel systems, re flashing of computers and a laundry list of other things. On top of that the cost of labor for all of this work AND testing to make sure that the retrofit was completed successfully. Then VW would have to provide some sort of warranty on these car. If any of the huge check list of things was missed VW would be responsible. Once again if someone got hurt or killed it would be even worse.

Just peaking into the conversion forum, shows how difficult it can be to do an engine swap for the same generation or even same model year. If they sold these as rollers ready for a DIY swap, whos responsible if it doesn't work and how do you properly police it? I can see this goingf wrong in a thousand different ways and at the end of the day, who's going to be responsible for things if they go wrong? More likely than not it will once again be VW.

There is no way they would ever open themselves up to anything like that. Even if the majority of claims in any of these scenarios were baseless and they are clearly not at fault, They would still have to get involved costing time and money. I just dont see re purposing or swaps being financially viable or a net plus.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
emissions modification Phase 2 (available beginning in early 2018)

'The second part of the emissions modification will involve outfitting your car with new emission control parts to ensure system reliability and durability over time. If your car exceeds 40,000 miles (for automatic transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for manual transmissions) we will install updated emissions control system hardware-specifically a new Diesel Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and selective Catalytic Reduction Converter-that is needed to maintain
emissions performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle'

Perhaps the problem is that a French translation is needed.
Once again ... that 150,000 miles comes from EPA/CARB.

Maybe the problem is that you don't believe ME. How about this: https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php

Look first at the LEVII table (phase in 2004 to 2007 onwards) then at the LEVIII table (phase in 2015 to 2019 onwards). Note the durability requirements.

It's not that there is a countdown timer which grenades the engine the moment that lifetime is exceeded. It's merely the expectation that the engine will meet the emission requirements for that lifetime.

And yes, I AGREE that the scheduled replacement of parts as part of the "phase 2" emission modification probably means the emission control components in this car are not capable of lasting the prescribed life. Again, this doesn't mean your DPF clogs at 150,001 miles. If they're wanting to replace the DPF at 70,000 mi, implying that there is 80,000 to go, maybe that's how long they figure it will last ... subject to statistical variations.
 
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