Daydream - building a 1.5L CR engine.

Why's everyone trying to overcomplicate the solution when a suitable (VAG 3 cylinder PD) engine exists? It's four cylinder counterparts are regularly doing over 250bhp. Do the math.

Dare I say a 3 cylinder PD would work fine around the 180 - 200bhp mark with R783s and 1756VK even on stock internals if torque was controlled, ie peaks at 3k rpm, restricted to <400nm. What do you think Ruben?

Ash

Rub87 said:

What makes you think that engine is excellent for performance oriented destinations?

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Pretty good, I'd say. It was biturbo before anyone really got interested in it. And if you can suggest an <=1.5 L VAG TDI engine with 4-valves per cylinder and CR injection, let us know.

think compression ratio is rather high to be reliable with that torque.. chepaest way would be to just use a EU5 1.4, has stonger bottom end and lower CR fom the factory, so just needs maybe different cam (as I think even more of the lobe is after tdc to promote split main, post or after injection for DPF regen) and injectors (arl or bigger), advantage is also these engines come with 02J style gearbox, so 02s or 1,9 o2j/o2a is pnp with the flywheel (as stated earlier a stock 1.9 flywheel is balanced round while 1.4 should be balanced off center)

EU5 = Engine code BMS found in Polo Bluemotion / Ibiza Ecomotive? You sure about the CR and bottom end? According to ETKA, only the crank is different.

Ash

Why would the crank be different with same rods? It is a few years since I checked but I tought the rod bearings were bigger like the high power PD's have..

TDIMeister said:

Pretty good, I'd say. It was biturbo before anyone really got interested in it. And if you can suggest an <=1.5 L VAG TDI engine with 4-valves per cylinder and CR injection, let us know.

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Nobody needs 4 valves to make decent numbers, is just easier to become to a certain level, but if then rest of the engine comes out to be really designed with cost and nothing but cost saving in mind..

Rub87 said:

Why would the crank be different with same rods? It is a few years since I checked but I tought the rod bearings were bigger like the high power PD's have..

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Crankshaft:
045 105 021 - AMF (75PS 19.5 CR), ATL (90PS ~18.0 CR), BAY, BNM, BNV
045 105 021H - BWB, BMS (bluemotion / ecomotive EU5?)

Connecting rods:
045 198 401 - ANY (1.2l PD 60)
045 198 401A - AMF, BHC, ATL (dropped in 2006, use 045 198 401B as replacement)
045 198 401B - AMF, BAY (dropped in 2009, use 045 198 401C as replacement)
045 198 401C - BNM, BNV, BWB, BMS

Crankshaft bearings:
026 198 491 - AMF, BAY, ATL, BNM, BNV, BWB, BMS

Conrod bearing shell (lower)
045 105 701 - AMF, BAY, ANY, BHC, ATL (dropped in 2009, use 045 105 701C as replacement)
045 105 701C - BNM, BNV, BWB, BMS

Conrod bearing shell (upper)
045 105 701A - AMF, BAY, ANY, BHC (dropped in 2009, use 045 105 701B as replacement)
045 105 701B - BNM, BNV, BWB, BMS

Looks to me that pretty much everything is interchangeable. Some parts have been superseded. What's the difference between the two cranks though?

And interestingly, cranks, rods and bearings are the same between AMF and ATL (90 PS Audi A2 motor), so where the hell does the ATL get 18.0 CR from

I'll go and try and look at the pistons, dunno if it's there in ETKA though...

Ash

Rub87 said:

but if then rest of the engine comes out to be really designed with cost and nothing but cost saving in mind..

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... then it will be like almost every mainstream, high-volume manufacturer.

TDIMeister said:

Pretty good, I'd say. It was biturbo before anyone really got interested in it. And if you can suggest an <=1.5 L VAG TDI engine with 4-valves per cylinder and CR injection, let us know.

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That is a very good engine indeed. And the fact that it is not made by VW does not make it a bad engine (like some people here seem to think). In the latest form this little sucker (only 1.25l) does 95HP and produces 200Nm from 1500rpm on. This are the figures that even bigger 1.4l engines can't match at the moment...

And Fiat also produces another good "small capacity" diesel. 1.6 JTDm with 120HP and 320Nm@1750.

I think that at the moment it is very hard to find anything better than those two on the market.

Just have a look at the ports in the head an then we'll talk again.. but in stock from its a good base, but I really think the built quality of the parts aint up for the job like the old vw engines were..

Stock VE's altough are in 0,9x

Well even the "new VW" engines are not up to the standards of the "old VW", but now we are way off.

About VE, I haven't done any measurements on 1.3 or 1.6.
But I have a lot of experience with 16V 1.9 JTD, which is quite a bit older design than the small ones. And VE on 1.9 16V goes form ~97% at 2000rpm to 94% at 3500 and 92% @4000 and 89% @4500rpm. And that is for completely stock engine with 200.000km behind it...

I'd rather speak of VE in terms of αK myself.

And I have absolutely no idea what that means... :/

αK is a flow coefficient normalised to piston area. It's particularly useful for a focussed, apples-to-apples comparison of the flow of the port and valve system, independent of other factors like manifold design and turbocharging/intercooling and the rest of the intake/exhaust plumbing. The picture above shows that there is a trade-off between pure flow quantity, related by αK, and the swirl/tumble motion, depending on which is employed in the engine (swirl - Diesel, tumble - gasoline). The graph shows only trends of the trade-off that exist in any engine design, but not to extract absolute values out of it; specific designs can be outside of the scatterband. Many decently developed Diesel engines can achieve VE over ~90% or more, if only at a limited RPM range. When engine engineers talk about "volumetric efficiency" for benchmarking purposes, they prefer to talk in terms of αK instead of VE as a percentage.

Anyway, sorry for the OT tangent.

I know this is quite an old thread, but was doing some internet searching and came across it while researching connecting rods.


I thought I'd provide an update.


In any event, the final combination of parts for my LSR build were a 1.6TD block, 1.5 rods and pistons, a 1.9 AAZ head, Dieselmeken injection pump, and a GT2056 turbo as the major hard parts.


At the World of Speed event on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2014, our team raised the H/DT (1.5L Diesel Truck) record from approximately 106 mph to 135.003 mph.


We are currently building the "next stage" of this engine, to feature more fuel and more boost. We will be testing at The Ohio Mile in 2015, with a return to the salt planned for 2016.


Steve.

TDIMeister said:

A triple would certainly have advantages concerning weight and being an ideal layout for pulse-turbocharging.

I hate to rain on a newbie's parade but after 12 years of being here, I've become a little jaded at grandiose project proposals -- 9 times out of 10 they go to nothing and we never hear of the project or the member again -- so my guard and skepticism filter are jacked rather high from spending too much time and thought until I see something of more substance and commitment. Big, ambitious projects are huge money pits and consumers of time, no matter how one thinks they can cut corners.

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I'm happy to be the "10th out of 10".

NICE, did you ever dyno the engine.

Get a much larger turbo on there and show it some RPM's!

I ran the truck on a chassis dyno at Ranken Technical college. 167 HP at the wheels. Subsequent to that, I did add a water injection system to keep the EGT's cool.


For anyone interested, here's a video of the first "leg" of the 135 mph record. This was going through the final mile at about 5,100 rpm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppI9AEdvWA

...and a short video of the dyno run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0

Jetmugg said:

I'm happy to be the "10th out of 10".

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Great job! But don't misunderstand me. We went through over 100 posts talking about some really "out-there" ideas to get a 1.5 L TDI, which would have been more challenging and expensive, but in the end, it's an IDI. No jab was ever intended on you. My hat's off to you, Sir.

Jetmugg said:

...and a short video of the dyno run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0

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I love that video. The nonchalant look on the guy's face standing beside you as the black cloud starts blocking the light is priceless.

Very clean once spooled! Fixed advance or still rpm dependant?

The details of the pump build are all in the hands of Goran Lindgren (Dieselmeken). I believe that the advance curve is still set by the internal governor.


Steve.

I can share a short story that when I started the engine (for warm-up) in the staging late at Bonneville, members of the emergency crew came running with fire extinguishers in their hands. They thought that something had caught fire.


Steve.

Rub87 said:

Very clean once spooled!

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Means there's room for more fuel!

Filed under - "It doesn't cost anything to dream", I'd love to hear ideas about how to build an extremely powerful 1.5L engine for land speed racing purposes.


Background - I have a 1984 Dodge Rampage truck, which is the current recordholder on salt and on pavement in the 1.5L diesel truck class. The existing records were set with a 1.5L displacement IDI VW engine (1.6 turbo block, 1.5L crank, custom rods, AAZ cylinder head).


I think that perhaps the next frontier of 1.5L diesel performance may be in the form of a VW CR setup.


Immediate options that come to mind would be de-stroking a 1.6L CR engine, and custom rods to make up the shortened throw. Lower compression ratio would obviously be a design consideration.


Another option "might" be to sleeve a 1.6L CR block, then using custom pistons to decrease the displacement.


If anyone has thoughts about how to achieve a very strong (maybe 250HP???) 1.5L, I'd love to hear and discuss them.


Thank you,


Steve.

I would ditch the 1.6 tdi engine as it’s not strong enough and either go with a 1.5L Dci engine from Renault/Dacia, and strap a big turbo to that. Also if you really want to stay VAG engine then a 1.4 L 3 cyl lupo engine will be much stronger, basically all pd running mods apply and rods are cheap for it ! Throw a wastwgated turbo, a set of forged rods and firad nozzles and you might be onto a winner. Not sure how reliable will be at that power level or if it will ever reach your power goal but will be cheap to build for sure !

It seems that there was someone on the forum with a relatively "built" 1.4L 3 cyl, but I can't seem to find it now.


My current 1.5L IDI can make about 200HP, so I'm definitely looking for something with more potential at this point.


Steve.

Thank you, Admins, for combining threads. The current records on salt and on pavement were set with a 1.5L IDI engine. I have tried on multiple occasions to bump the record higher by adding more fuel and boost to the 1.5L IDI, to no avail, and at a significant damage to my wallet.


For 2018, we will be running a 2 liter engine in the Rampage, but I'm keen to get back into the development of the 1.5 engine.


To raise the 1.5 record significantly further, I'm back to thinking about out-of-the-box options (sleeving and/or destroking a more modern TDI), building a 3-pot 1.4L TDI, or some other options.


We can't rest on our laurels, so I think it's time to get back to "work" on this project.


Steve.

De-stroke an ALH 20mm, which gives 1499cc, and carry on with well known power enhancement mods. Done. This has already been posted in this thread before. No sleeving nonsense or exotic, unobtanium methods.
300 HP is not out of the realm of possibility.

Edit:

• Ported big valve ALH head and 11mm lift race cam from NPS heads
• 12mm pump / 11mm cam plate, .360 injectors
• Compound turbo (you'll need about 48 PSI of boost for 300 HP @ 1.5L displacement; impossible to generate this efficiently in a single stage)