GP Toggle Switch

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
Ran out of patience with this GP issue. I need to install a toggle switch to control the GP during cold weather. (New ECT, new Relay 109 and still, the stupid things don't come on unless I disconnect the ECT - so it may be the ECT harness).

Anyways, does anyone know how to splice in a toggle switch into the ECT harness, or some other method to control them?
 

flatlanded

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
Saskatchewan
TDI
2002 Jetta
I had a similar question last year and remember reading a post of someone who did this. I can't find it atm but I'll keep looking for a bit. Basically, you're trying to trick the ECU into thinking the sensor's unplugged. Find the wire the ECU uses to read from and splice it with a switch wired to the cabin. By the heated seats controls is a good spot if you don't have ASM.

I'll keep looking for that post.
 

rackaracka

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2001
Location
Monroe, NJ
The glow plugs are simply engergized with +12V on their tip, and complete the circuit by connecting to ground via the engine. They draw a significant amount of current, which you could provide by adding a heavily fused heavy gauge wire and momentary switch capable of the amperage draw - or use a heavy relay for this purpose. If it was a "farm car" you could just cut the harness off and create a manual setup. The issue I would be most concerned with is the constantly lit check engine light. You won't know if you have a serious issue, or just the fault of the glow plug harness.

I am not sure if you could just tap into the glow plug circuit and add a secondary feed, which would be ideal. On an old IDI we ran a momentary (normally open) toggle switch and tied its output to the glow plug harness and a led on the dash. This way we could see when the glow plugs were getting juice, whether provided by the cars normal circuitry or the momentary switch. You may need to put diodes into the harness so you don't backfeed voltage, not sure.

Are you sure you are not getting juice? Your glow plug light on the dash isn't a good indicator of when the glow plugs are getting juiced - they tend to glow for 10 seconds or so after that light goes out.

You could also do the Hammond Mod - which tricks the ECU into thinking it is arctic cold and provides maximum glow time
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
Ran out of patience with this GP issue. I need to install a toggle switch to control the GP during cold weather. (New ECT, new Relay 109 and still, the stupid things don't come on unless I disconnect the ECT - so it may be the ECT harness).

Anyways, does anyone know how to splice in a toggle switch into the ECT harness, or some other method to control them?
Really? How about reading the stickie on Glowplugs and fixing the problem correctly or having someone who knows what they are doing fix it for you? Tooefing it is not an option .......
 

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
...

Really? How about reading the stickie on Glowplugs and fixing the problem correctly or having someone who knows what they are doing fix it for you? Tooefing it is not an option .......
Thanks for the useful input. I have troubleshoot the GP issue, hence the "ran out of patience" remark. There's quite a few thread I started on this. Feel free to peruse them.

Does anybody have the full wiring diagrams for this model? I found a 7 page PDF here, but it's missing some of the pages. I noticed that pin 2 from the ECT sensor goes to the Outside Air Temp Sensor, then into the ECU. I can't figure out where pin 4 goes...I'm guessing the gauge in the cluster...but I'm missing the pages.

Thanks for all the replies!!
 

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
I guess I should summarize in this thread, what I've done:

Symptom:
GP light does not stay on more than one second (bulb test) during sub-zero (C) temperatures.

Troubleshooting:

1. All glow plugs are good and consistent (0.3ohms)
2. Replaced Relay 109 (was reading 180ohms), Cruise Control didn't work. New relay reads 60ohms and cruise control works.
3. Replaced ECT.
4. Voltage to all harness connections is good, ~12V.
5. Disconnecting the ECT results in the GP light staying on for 14 seconds, and car starts fine but this leads to CEL and no cooling fans.
6. Cleaned ground connection under the battery.
7. Checked all fuses on top of the battery and connections.

Suspect:
1. Either partially faulty ECT harness (four pins, see above post).
2. Faulty (brand new) ECT...however I highly doubt this since there are no other codes thrown and the water temp gauge works when the ECT is connected.
3. ???
 

mctdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
The glow plugs are simply engergized with +12V on their tip, and complete the circuit by connecting to ground via the engine. They draw a significant amount of current, which you could provide by adding a heavily fused heavy gauge wire and momentary switch capable of the amperage draw - or use a heavy relay for this purpose. If it was a "farm car" you could just cut the harness off and create a manual setup. The issue I would be most concerned with is the constantly lit check engine light. You won't know if you have a serious issue, or just the fault of the glow plug harness.

I am not sure if you could just tap into the glow plug circuit and add a secondary feed, which would be ideal. On an old IDI we ran a momentary (normally open) toggle switch and tied its output to the glow plug harness and a led on the dash. This way we could see when the glow plugs were getting juice, whether provided by the cars normal circuitry or the momentary switch. You may need to put diodes into the harness so you don't backfeed voltage, not sure.

Are you sure you are not getting juice? Your glow plug light on the dash isn't a good indicator of when the glow plugs are getting juiced - they tend to glow for 10 seconds or so after that light goes out.

You could also do the Hammond Mod - which tricks the ECU into thinking it is arctic cold and provides maximum glow time
FYI - The BEW engine in the early PDs were run at 7 volts. There was a recall on these to reprogram them to 5 volts with new glow plugs. Run on 12 volts these will burn out.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=252214&highlight=PD+glow+plug+recall

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=253663&highlight=PD+glow+plug+recall

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=264424&highlight=PD+glow+plug+recall



I can be wrong, but I believe the last of the PDs and the Common Rail engines came as 5 volt glow plugs.
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
Thanks for the useful input. I have troubleshoot the GP issue, hence the "ran out of patience" remark. There's quite a few thread I started on this. Feel free to peruse them.....
You just joined here in November --- that is why I directed you to the in depth stickie threads on this subject. Read them. Bentley publishes an in depth service manual with electrical diagrams, to answer your other question. These Bentley manuals are widely available (indeed, check out Amazon.com for instance). As far as "peruse" your prior threads that you have not linked, why? It is not my car and I cannot fix it over the internet for you. Besides, the forum rules discourage multiple threads.

Here are my suggestions for getting some better insight from forum members to help you with your problem: First, write a good, detailed first post, listing all of the specifics of your car (make, model, mileage, mods, fix attempts to date, when the problem first appeared and the symptoms); then tell us whether you have a vcds and if so what codes are appearing. A bad initial post usually leads to 20 questions (15 of which usually could have been avoided).

Now, about your comment about "running out of patience", please understand that that is rather subjective. My ten year old son runs out of patience rather quickly, throws up his hands, whines about it and tries to half arse things as well. I back him up, make him go about it the way that he should (learning how to fish versus being handed a fish analogy fwiw).

Lots of young people do this same thing. It probably is a generational issue due to the modern standard of living (computers, phones, internet whatever). Thinking through a problem seems to be put onto the back burner. So please, walk us through your problem. We will help you if you help us to help you. Thank you in advance and welcome to the tdiclub.
 

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
I did read the threads (stickies) hence the summary above that hits all the points outlined in the stickies.

I did walk through the problem by posting the summary of what I've done and what the symptoms are. I did post year and make. I have VCDS and I have no codes except when I disconnect the ECT.

Opinions are like a$$holes....

I have the patience to build rockets, airplanes, satellites, and telescopes (not the model ones) professionally....sooo yahh.
 

flatlanded

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
Saskatchewan
TDI
2002 Jetta
Sounds similar to a problem I've seen when I was helping out another member a week or two ago but only his was a 99.5. Everything in the GP system seems to function properly when the CTS is unplugged. It won't activate the GPs with the sensor plugged in.

The members are just trying to help. We get ALOT of people who ask questions that have been answered 1000's of times because they didn't bother to do a search. He meant nothing by it and hopefully we can help you solve this problem.

Do you have a bentley manual? I can check mine and see if I can find you the wiring diagram.
 

flatlanded

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
Saskatchewan
TDI
2002 Jetta
Here:

Those are the pins the ECU uses. You could also do the Hamman mod which is basically just adding a resistor. Or add a switch and a resistor under the hood that you can just turn off during the summer rather than running one to the cabin.
 

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
I managed to get the complete wiring diagram. Here's what I managed to piece together (see pictures). I'll start with the ECT and check everything again (continuity, grounds, resistance, voltages).
Flatlanded - did you ever resolve the issue with your friend?





 
Last edited:

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
I put a 'push button' switch into my brothers 95 MK3 TD... but its a much simpler setup...

I simply disconnected the original faulty harness and supplied 12V directly to the bus bar with a push button switch tucked nicely into one of the cabin interior panels right next to the headlight switch...

its a push button so you cannot leave it on and forget about it... in the mk3 this is an easier task of course - but it works quite well.
 

jcrews

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Round Rock, TX - VCDS
TDI
All gone
If you can read measuring block group 012, that would tell you what's going on.

Check adaptation channel 012, and make sure the value is at or less than 32768.
 

rackaracka

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2001
Location
Monroe, NJ
One further question... are you sure the glow plugs are not staying on for a while? In my 98 NB the light on the instrument cluster lights up for about 2 seconds, but if I watch my voltage gauge I see the GP's still on. The voltate drops to about 11.2volts while the glow plugs are cooking, and after about an additional 10 seconds, I see the voltage bounce back to 12.3 and I then start the car. If I didn't have a voltage gauge I wouldn't know the GP's were working.
 

derheilige82

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
GTA, Ontario
TDI
2001 Jetta
Hi,

Well, that's been the issue from the very beginning - the glow plugs do not stay on past the bulb test. The last few nights it hit 0C (32F) and the pigtail just stayed on for 1 second to complete the bulb test. I measured the voltage to the harness during the 32F weather with the ECT connected and I only saw 12V for one second or so. I should install a voltage gauge and some other gauges too.

Last night I checked continuities (refers to my drawings above) and here are the results.

ECT - Pins 4 and 2 (to cluster gauge and ground 269 in cluster panel respectively) have continuity. Pins 1 & 3 (to ECM) no continuity.

GP Relay (GPR) - Continuity from Pin 3 to ground 135 in cluster panel. Pins 1 & 7 (to ECM) no continuity.

GP - Connectors T2a/1 and T2a/2 both have continuity back towards the GPs. No continuity towards the ECM.

I'm seeing a pattern here and I'm guessing I may have had to remove a fuse or something to see the continuity towards the ECM. I was going to take out the ECM and check the continuity to the respective terminating pins on the two harnesses, but I ran out of daylight and warm weather.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Hi,

Well, that's been the issue from the very beginning - the glow plugs do not stay on past the bulb test. The last few nights it hit 0C (32F) and the pigtail just stayed on for 1 second to complete the bulb test. I measured the voltage to the harness during the 32F weather with the ECT connected and I only saw 12V for one second or so. I should install a voltage gauge and some other gauges too.

Last night I checked continuities (refers to my drawings above) and here are the results.

ECT - Pins 4 and 2 (to cluster gauge and ground 269 in cluster panel respectively) have continuity. Pins 1 & 3 (to ECM) no continuity.

GP Relay (GPR) - Continuity from Pin 3 to ground 135 in cluster panel. Pins 1 & 7 (to ECM) no continuity.

GP - Connectors T2a/1 and T2a/2 both have continuity back towards the GPs. No continuity towards the ECM.

I'm seeing a pattern here and I'm guessing I may have had to remove a fuse or something to see the continuity towards the ECM. I was going to take out the ECM and check the continuity to the respective terminating pins on the two harnesses, but I ran out of daylight and warm weather.
I am sorry if it's been mentioned already, but if you unplug the coolant temp sensor, does the light stay on then?
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Yup, the darn thing stays on for ~15 seconds. ECT was changed and so was Relay 109.
Ok, next step is to use VCDS and check what coolant temp the ECU is actually reading. Also, you would want to check the glow plug adaption channel to make sure nobody accidentally adapted the glow time all the way down.I think that might be the most likely issue. And you can increase the glow time and temp which the glow plugs kick on with the adaption.
 

jcrews

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Round Rock, TX - VCDS
TDI
All gone
Ok, next step is to use VCDS and check what coolant temp the ECU is actually reading. Also, you would want to check the glow plug adaption channel to make sure nobody accidentally adapted the glow time all the way down.I think that might be the most likely issue. And you can increase the glow time and temp which the glow plugs kick on with the adaption.

A lower value in adaptation 12 will effectively extend preaheating time. The value should be at or below 32768. Anything higher will cause preheating to be shortened, and effectively disable preaheating if high enough.
 
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