Most cost effective Lubricity additive???

Speardog

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I'm currently running 200:1 Walmart ashless 2 stroke in my tank at fill up. I haven't done the numbers in a few years, but is there now a more cost effective product that meets or exceeds the lubricity performance of 2 stroke oil??
 

ISurvivedNMU

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Bob_Fout

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I'm currently running 200:1 Walmart ashless 2 stroke in my tank at fill up. I haven't done the numbers in a few years, but is there now a more cost effective product that meets or exceeds the lubricity performance of 2 stroke oil??
No B2 to B10 in your area?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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I use the drain oil.
It is diesel oil, which means it is low ash (or ashless). Long as you're careful about using a clean funnel while draining it it stays pretty clean at a 5k mile change interval. Probably does better than cheap two stroke oil as it is fancypants synthetic stuff.

Fun fact, before two stroke oil came about you just used normal 30wt motor oil for your mixed gas.
 

torqueit

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Opti-Lube came out with a new product that is 3 cents per gallon in cost and works much better than 2 stroke oil.

Link to the stuff. http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-improver-xl.html

Link to the test http://opti-lube.com/downloads/intertektesting.pdf

Math... 1280 gallons for $43.00 shipped with TDI club group buy $43/1280 gallons= .03359 dollars per gallon, or 3.4 cents per gallon.

With this you also get deposit control and water separation. Lots of benefits compared to 2 stroke oil.
Interesting. I've been using XPD. From the looks of that if I'm worried about lubricity, I should switch to XL.

Anyone have an opinion on which we should be using?
 

Speardog

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I use the drain oil.
It is diesel oil, which means it is low ash (or ashless). Long as you're careful about using a clean funnel while draining it it stays pretty clean at a 5k mile change interval. Probably does better than cheap two stroke oil as it is fancypants synthetic stuff.

Fun fact, before two stroke oil came about you just used normal 30wt motor oil for your mixed gas.
I know that crankcase oil does nothing for lubricitiy (at least from older tests)
 

Speardog

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Opti-Lube came out with a new product that is 3 cents per gallon in cost and works much better than 2 stroke oil.

Link to the stuff. http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-improver-xl.html

Link to the test http://opti-lube.com/downloads/intertektesting.pdf

Math... 1280 gallons for $43.00 shipped with TDI club group buy $43/1280 gallons= .03359 dollars per gallon, or 3.4 cents per gallon.

With this you also get deposit control and water separation. Lots of benefits compared to 2 stroke oil.
is there a group buy going on now?
 

ISurvivedNMU

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Interesting. I've been using XPD. From the looks of that if I'm worried about lubricity, I should switch to XL.

Anyone have an opinion on which we should be using?
Both XPD and XL did about the same at the regular recommended dose rates. When you double the dose of XL, it did really well. They did not post a double dose test of XPD. XPD has more in it, like cetane and anti-gel. But for lubricity, water and deposit control, XL is much cheaper.

is there a group buy going on now?
direct link http://dieselfuellube.com/order2.html

Thread link http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=366933

its 4.75 shipping (total) on all gallons. So as long as you order all of the same, it comes to 4.75 in shipping. If you order different kinds, the software calculates 4.75 per kind. But people wrote in that thread that they were refunded shipping if they asked for it.
 

Speardog

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Huh, that's strange that 2 stroke oil would do anything different in comparison, then.
I'd have to look it up, but 2 stroke oil at 200:1 was about the best dollar/lube ratio awhile ago. I believe the testing results for various additives plus transmission and 4 stroke oil were on there as well. It was on cumminsforum
 

Scoutx

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Opti-Lube came out with a new product that is 3 cents per gallon in cost and works much better than 2 stroke oil.

Link to the stuff. http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-improver-xl.html

Link to the test http://opti-lube.com/downloads/intertektesting.pdf

Math... 1280 gallons for $43.00 shipped with TDI club group buy $43/1280 gallons= .03359 dollars per gallon, or 3.4 cents per gallon.

With this you also get deposit control and water separation. Lots of benefits compared to 2 stroke oil.
Not bad, but I believe the criteria was most cost effective. Which if it is available would almost certainly be B2-B5.

As an additive it would likely be B20-B100 if you can find it. (Blended to B2)

As an actual "additive" the cheapest I know of is Optilube Summer Blend

http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-improver-summer-blend.html

Math... 3000 gallons for $58.32 shipped with TDI club group buy

$58.32/3000 gallons= 0.01944 dollars per gallon, or 2 cents per gallon.

Which is a savings of over 40% when compared to XL.
 
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ISurvivedNMU

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Not bad, but I believe the criteria was most cost effective. Which if it is available would almost certainly be B2-B5.

As an additive it would likely be B20-B100 if you can find it. (Blended to B2)

As an actual "additive" the cheapest I know of is Optilube Summer Blend

http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-improver-summer-blend.html

Math... 3000 gallons for $58.32 shipped with TDI club group buy

$58.32/3000 gallons= 0.01944 dollars per gallon, or 2 cents per gallon.

Which is a savings of over 40% when compared to XL.
I stand corrected on the cheapest additive. Thank you.

While B2 is great, your missing out on deposit control and water demulsifycation. IMHO, 2 strong reasons to use an additive!
 

DubFamily

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B100 is ~$80 for a 5 gallon cube including shipping. 1 quart per tank makes approximately B2; so that lets you treat 20 tanks.

So 5 gallons of B100 treats ~280 gallons. $80/280 gallons = 0.28571 dollars per gallon, or 29 cents per gallon.

And that is still adding only lubricity; while using Bio (and storing it for ~6 months) can create added water or algae issues. Using a bio cube you would still want an additive to control water, so that adds more cost.

Just providing the bio info for comparison.
 

BeetleGo

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A little dab a bio would do ya. 6 months storage of biodiesel, especially in a water tight container (it's only when the lid is open would it attract water!) is within storage limits!
 

Lightflyer1

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B100 is ~$80 for a 5 gallon cube including shipping. 1 quart per tank makes approximately B2; so that lets you treat 20 tanks.

So 5 gallons of B100 treats ~280 gallons. $80/280 gallons = 0.28571 dollars per gallon, or 29 cents per gallon.

And that is still adding only lubricity; while using Bio (and storing it for ~6 months) can create added water or algae issues. Using a bio cube you would still want an additive to control water, so that adds more cost.

Just providing the bio info for comparison.
But that is probably the most expensive bio that can be bought. If you can find a blend at the pump (very common in Texas) it is usually no more expensive than regular diesel, so $0 per gallon. It is still an additive even when premixed at the pump. I have yet to find any water in the fuel I use since 2005. That would include B100 from the pump in my 2006 Jetta and currently using B5 to B20 in the Passat. Algae is pretty much a non issue as well for the majority of us I believe. Commercial diesel from the pump and used right away would pretty much never see this issue. Now if you are storing for for some length of time, it may rear its ugly head.
 
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Scoutx

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I will note that I have a local supplier of B100, that has given me a price of $4.90 per gallon. Subtract the cost of a gallon of diesel and divide by 50 gallons (B2 blend) and it works out to 2-3 cents per gallon. There are other sources of B20 that I can get for diesel cost and thus my additive expense for that would be nothing. Depends on the availability of a source and it's cost. It can, however, be more economical than a packaged additive, if a whole lot more of a mess to deal with. I will note that with 80K on my car, I've still got a lot of my first gallon of SB.
 
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ISurvivedNMU

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Since we are all experts here. :)

What does B5, B10, B20 or B100 leave behind as far as deposits on the injectors and also what does it do to the EGR valve as for cleanliness?

Everyone in this forum feels they need lubricity, but they do not think of what is happening with the product they put in to create the lubricity.

2-stroke oil is slick, but it has adverse issues as well. Specifically, it can actually start to form small areas of accumulation in the injector by “sticking” to the hot spots before getting injected, thereby forming a micro-deposit. And, there are issues with the combustion byproducts getting more soot than normal. BUT its cheap! LOL....
 

DubFamily

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I will note that I have a local supplier of B100, that has given me a price of $4.90 per gallon. Subtract the cost of a gallon of diesel and divide by 50 gallons (B2 blend) and it works out to 2-3 cents per gallon.
At that price you are at ~ 8-9 cents a gallon to treat at B2; pretty good and nice that it is local. I posted the only source I know of (Hiperfuels) because I cannot get anything else local. I doubt I am the only person in that situation.

But that is probably the most expensive bio that can be bought. If you can find a blend at the pump (very common in Texas) it is usually no more expensive than regular diesel, so $0 per gallon. It is still an additive even when premixed at the pump.
Adding B100 to D2 is an additive. Pumping B5 from a gas station is not an additive imo. The bio in that fuel is simply replacing the other additives that could have been used at the distribution point. That would be like calling D2 an additive because some Lubrizol got dumped in it before you pumped it at Shell. I am not (nor have I ever) telling anyone they shouldn't use bio if they have it available... ;)

And again; I can't get bio in Maryland. I doubt I am the only person in that situation.
 
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Lightflyer1

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I seriously doubt that bio in low percentages has much if any affect on deposits left in the engine.

It is an assumption that since bio is added that the other additive package it would normally get is withheld. I doubt it is. Bio mixes from a commercial pump are still an additive just not put in by you. It is labeled as such even in most places. If I had to order it from Hyperfuels I would just order OptiLube instead or use some other additive. The price from Hyperfuels is sky high and not cost efficient compared to other additives.
 

Scoutx

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At that price you are at ~ 8-9 cents a gallon to treat at B2; pretty good and nice that it is local. I posted the only source I know of (Hiperfuels) because I cannot get anything else local. I doubt I am the only person in that situation..
If you ignore the fact you're buying a gallon of fuel. Which means you should subtract the cost of the gallon of D2 that you would otherwise be burning.

The difference in cost is your "additive" cost per gallon.

Oh, and I do believe I mentioned in both comments about using BXX that availability would govern whether it would be the cheapest form of lubricity "additive".
 
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Abacus

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Since we are all experts here. :)

Everyone in this forum feels they need lubricity, but they do not think of what is happening with the product they put in to create the lubricity.

2-stroke oil is slick, but it has adverse issues as well. Specifically, it can actually start to form small areas of accumulation in the injector by “sticking” to the hot spots before getting injected, thereby forming a micro-deposit. And, there are issues with the combustion byproducts getting more soot than normal. BUT its cheap! LOL....
Yeah, look at these huge deposits after using two cycle oil at 128:1 after 170,000 miles of using it. BIG difference between theory and reality. My injectors were fine but only had 50K on them since I swapped them with PP520's. The old ones had no buildup either.




I guess I'll just have to wait a little longer, but until then I'll keep using it in all our TDI's. I am going to change my IP with 441K on it because I suspect it's a little weak despite it running and sounding flawless. I have another on the shelf and it needs a TB anyway, so why not.
 
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Bob_Fout

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Yeah, look at these huge deposits after using two cycle oil at 128:1 after 170,000 miles of using it. BIG difference between theory and reality. My injectors were fine but only had 50K on them since I swapped them with PP520's. The old ones had no buildup either.

<images>


I guess I'll just have to wait a little longer, but until then I'll keep using it in all our TDI's. I am going to change my IP with 441K on it because I suspect it's a little weak despite it running and sounding flawless. I have another on the shelf and it needs a TB anyway, so why not.
Weren't you running 2-cycle mixed with Power Service?
 

DubFamily

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It is an assumption that since bio is added that the other additive package it would normally get is withheld. I doubt it is. Bio mixes from a commercial pump are still an additive just not put in by you. It is labeled as such even in most places. If I had to order it from Hyperfuels I would just order OptiLube instead or use some other additive. The price from Hyperfuels is sky high and not cost efficient compared to other additives.
Bio replaces the "normal" lubricity additives; the rest of an additive package is still included; such as cloud point. I wasn't assuming the removal of all other additives; just the replacement of lubricity with a different form (bio).

It is fuel, pumped from a commercial station. Everything prior to that is what makes up the fuel (whether chemical or bio is irrelevant). What you put in your tank to mix with it is an additive. We'll have to agree to disagree on calling it an additive I guess.

I totally agree on the hyperfuels pricing; just don't know of any other sources personally. ;)

If you ignore the fact you're buying a gallon of fuel. Which means you should subtract the cost of the gallon of D2 that you would otherwise be burning.

The difference in cost is your "additive" cost per gallon.

Oh, and I do believe I mentioned in both comments about using BXX that availability would govern whether it would be the cheapest form of lubricity "additive".
By your logic we should be subtracting the cost of a gallon of fuel from the treatment rates of anything we add to the tank... You aren't pumping a gallon of B100 into your tank; so you aren't replacing a gallon of diesel in the process. :confused:
 
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johnboy00

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Expanding on what Scoutx said above:

To get a true cost per gallon when using B2 you have to also include the fuel economy of the additive you put in.

For instance lets say make about 12 gallons (1536 oz) of B2. If B100 costs you $1.00 more a gallon and you add about .24 gallons. and spend an additional 24 cents for fuel. because the B100 gets less fuel economy (I'll choose 80% but use whatever number you are comfortable with) The total cost for the B2 vs D2 will be about .25/.8 or 30 cents for the 12 gallon fill up. This results in an extra cost of 2.5 cents per gallon.

If you can get B100 at a 50 cent premium to D2, then your cost per gallon is only 1.25 cents.
 
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DubFamily

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^I get what you are saying now; I am used to thinking of "additives" in the amounts of a couple ounces per tank... With a Quart+ added to each tank you are offsetting more fuel; wasn't thinking of it that way.
 
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