HPFP Failures-State by State List

75r90rider

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Midwest
TDI
quite a few diesels over the years
I do not think playing the numbers/percentages game is going to help anything or anyone. To me, FIVE is too many. Look how few cars Toyota actually found to have a problem, and the whole ball of yarn that unravelled.... 50 HPFP on cars that represent 10% of 3% of the US fleet is simply too high. Recalls have been issued on smaller numbers than that.

And keep in mind, I am not advocating anyone freaking out and selling their CR TDIs, or not buying one, or anything like that. I am simply wanting people to have as much info on their car as possible, so that IF a problem happens, OR a solution to a problem becomes available, he/she has all the info possible to invoke a good outcome.

The purpose of this thread looks to be a numbers gathering task, for a look at what is actually causing this and a possible correction (so far, we know very little) can be found here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441&page=12 in a thread I started.

As a life-long Volkswagen fan, I would like to try and find a solution, or at least make sure if a solution is found elsewhere, it is made available to everyone that owns or services these cars.
I agree that the situation is unacceptable. I don't like 5 failures either. I'm just trying to put the issue ion perspective. I'm worried sick that my new car has a major inherent design flaw that is going to be a headache. On the other hand, rather than get caught up in the emotion of it, I'm saying that we need to keep in mind that the overall failure rate is to this date pretty low and probably not cause for mass panic. At least not yet.
 

dzcad90

Rolex & gin
Joined
Mar 15, 1999
Location
Joliet, IL USA
TDI
Jetta - 97 (RIP), '03 (Sold), '09
I'll say again, the greater concern for us should be containment. Even with an HPFP redesign, isn't it still possible/probable that it could shred in its expected lifespan?

Who will be willing, at 150k miles, to spend $9k +++ when the HPFP fails?
Hopefully by the time a lot of us have gotten to 150K:

A. There will be a known cause and a known avoidance mechanism.

B. Parts will be cheaper. Injection pumps for ALH engines used to go for more than double what you can buy them for now. $2K of the cost in this repair are injectors and $1800 is the cost of the high pressure pump. Tack tens of hours of some $100 dealer labor and you are easily at the $9K figure. (I'm not saying I want to swallow a $5K repair at any point during ownership of my car either...)

C. (Wishful thinking..) Maybe there will be a redesign and maybe even so far as an extended warranty from VW.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Frankly, ONE HPFP failure is too many, especially if I owned it. :rolleyes:

No car in the $25,000 range that I know of can have a $10,000 repair bill unless you pour valve grinding compound into the engine oil and drive it with no hydraulic fluid in the transmission.

So, even a few of these failures are very important to us, anyway.
 

MostroDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Location
North Haven, CT and Brooklyn, NY
TDI
2012 Passat Gasser VR6; (Sold and missed) 09 JSW DSG Pano Blue Graphite Build Date 05/09
75r90rider, your tone in this thread is much less alarmist than in the thread you started the other day! I wish you hadn't started that one. :)

I agree with your tone in THIS thread, in that the overall percentage of failures is very very small, and decreasing every day. We are well past 60,000 TDIs sold at this point. The frequency of failure posts seems to have slowed considerably from when the issue first arose, although that may only be my perception.

For my part, I'm interested to learn if there will be some remedy NOT involving replacement of the entire fuel system, thereby cutting the 10K cost. Perhaps cleaning is a possibility somehow? The consensus seems to be that the very small microscopic shavings cannot ever really be cleaned out of the system, and as long as they are present, the high-pressure componentry remains at risk of future failure. Nevertheless, I am hopeful something like this can be found to work, so some of us can undertake repairs in our driveways, or at a trusted guru.

Maybe someone can find a good cleaning method? Rod Bearing, can you fill us in on the techniques you currently employ when cleaning out failed diesels in your shop? You alluded to them in another thread long ago, and I've been holding out hope you'd describe the process and maybe offer an opinion on whether it might work for this scenario. Doubtful it would, I'm sure, given the extremely high pressures we're talking about, but it would be fascinating reading nonetheless.

Pretty please?
 

75r90rider

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Midwest
TDI
quite a few diesels over the years
Frankly, ONE HPFP failure is too many, especially if I owned it. :rolleyes:

No car in the $25,000 range that I know of can have a $10,000 repair bill unless you pour valve grinding compound into the engine oil and drive it with no hydraulic fluid in the transmission.

So, even a few of these failures are very important to us, anyway.
Agreed. I'm just tired of assuming in my own head that my car is for sure a time bomb. When I look at the actual data we have available at this point, it makes me feel like the odds are a little better my car isn't a pile.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Agreed. I'm just tired of assuming in my own head that my car is for sure a time bomb. When I look at the actual data we have available at this point, it makes me feel like the odds are a little better my car isn't a pile.
All we could do at this time is understand the data for the failures and try our best to use good fuel with either a bit of biodiesel or lubricity additive. Maybe up the road someone will come up with a solution such as a water trap or VW may come up with an improved pump.
 

mysql

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Location
United States
TDI
Jetta wagon
So, suddenly out of the blue, fuel systems are being tooefed by wrong/bad fuel just in 2009+ cars with the CR fuel system and yet the previous two generations of VAG TDIs sold here continue on untouched by the same fuel? Are you saying that a high percentage of morons buy 2009+ TDIs? What about people who have already owned and driven older TDIs for many hundreds of thousands of miles? Suddenly they decided to accidentally put gasoline in their new TDI? And do you think nobody has ever misfueled a VE or PD TDI?

Something is fishy.... :p
I think you're on to something!

The only logical conclusion is that 2009/2010 TDI owners have low IQs and are unable to determine if they are filling up their vehicle with gasoline or diesel.

We just have to sit back and watch to see how many members of this forum drop dead from accidentally drinking D2 for breakfast after they filled up their TDI with orange juice.
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
I think you're on to something!

The only logical conclusion is that 2009/2010 TDI owners have low IQs and are unable to determine if they are filling up their vehicle with gasoline or diesel.

We just have to sit back and watch to see how many members of this forum drop dead from accidentally drinking D2 for breakfast after they filled up their TDI with orange juice.
So, I just received my 2nd shipment of OptiLube XPeeD. I'm confused about fueling. Am I supposed to drink this stuff first, and then pee in the tank? Do I need a filter to screen for possible kidney stones?
 

Rod Bearing

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Fort Worth
TDI
Several
Agreed. I'm just tired of assuming in my own head that my car is for sure a time bomb. When I look at the actual data we have available at this point, it makes me feel like the odds are a little better my car isn't a pile.
If it helps I bought 2 of the first 09's to hit the lots. One has been lost to a wreck since then - daughters car - and I gave her the other 09 to replace it. The wreck had I think close to 60 thousand miles on it. The other now has almost 100 thousand or it may be slightly more.

I recently bought 2 2010 JSW for business use.

I have a 335d. I also have a couple 206 TDI's and an earlier 2002 model TDI.

Of course a Veyron would be nicer but......
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
it is my understanding that models older than 2009 don't have hpfp, it could be that the hpfp is more sensitive to low lubricity or water in the fuel or whatever it is than old pumps
 

MarylandJetta

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Location
Rockville, MD
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
Is it possible that the whole issue is the result of something no one's even really thought of yet, like maybe there was a batch of fuel tanks that had rough seams or some other defect on the inside, then metal shavings came through the tanks, along the fuel lines, rusted in the filter, fubar'd the HPFP, etc. That would explain why some cars have had multiple failures, too.

I'm just saying... I think a lot of people are getting wound up about it being the pump and/or the fuel, but maybe there's something else that could be causing the failures, and maybe the fix may be more basic than hoping for a pump redesign. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. :)
 

jbright

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
Indianapolis
TDI
2009 Jetta DSG
Is it possible that the whole issue is the result of something no one's even really thought of yet, like maybe there was a batch of fuel tanks that had rough seams or some other defect on the inside, then metal shavings came through the tanks, along the fuel lines, rusted in the filter, fubar'd the HPFP, etc. That would explain why some cars have had multiple failures, too.

I'm just saying... I think a lot of people are getting wound up about it being the pump and/or the fuel, but maybe there's something else that could be causing the failures, and maybe the fix may be more basic than hoping for a pump redesign. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. :)
I'm pretty sure there are people who know exactly what the problems is, and how to fix it -- the engineers at VW and Bosch. But they aren't sharing that valuable information at this time.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
Let me throw some perspective out here too...

This club's value is in this data I'm reading right here. I know of a NC TDI with almost 70k -- 2009 -- no pump failures. BUT this will be its third winter and we'll see if the no-start issue comes back (I THINK it's ice in the intake... but the owners disagree). NO RUST in their fuel filter and they tank up at the cheapest spots anywhere from AR to DC....

Now, to those looking at a used 2009 or 2010: Take note. You may want to pop the fuel filter and look for rust, if so negotiate the repairs into your purchase or walk.

For those of us with previous generation TDIs (namely PDs with bad cams): See, the new cars aren't any better!!!

I know that when I finally unload my BRM it'll be solid for the next owner. I've already broken everything on it you can, and the failures evident to its design have failed and been fixed. The second owner will love the car till the day they die, I'm sure.

For me, I've had my fill. I get stressed out sitting in it, and I just want it gone. I know and never fault others for this -- because I now fully understand it. Sometimes you can't have any doubt, and it's easier to go back to a gasser than to risk the diesel. It isn't unfounded, but I'm sure some don't agree with it.

That said long live the ALH! Or well AGR in my case. I am apparently the OTHER US citizen who got a US destined TDI that has a Canada motor in it.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
So, suddenly out of the blue, fuel systems are being tooefed by wrong/bad fuel just in 2009+ cars with the CR fuel system and yet the previous two generations of VAG TDIs sold here continue on untouched by the same fuel? Are you saying that a high percentage of morons buy 2009+ TDIs? What about people who have already owned and driven older TDIs for many hundreds of thousands of miles? Suddenly they decided to accidentally put gasoline in their new TDI? And do you think nobody has ever misfueled a VE or PD TDI?

Something is fishy.... :p

Even if the culprit IS poor fuel, these cars were certified for sale in this country, with our available fuel. They should have been tested as such. Federal law requires it. They cannot get emissions compliance and certifications with some exotic Euro-fuel.
Oilhammer and that is a great point. Thats exatctly what I asked the first dealer when they cried contaminated fuel. I told them I have two other tdi's. Another 09 and an 03 that were fueled at the same station and there is nothing wrong with them. Thats why I said "Its not the fuel"

dweisel
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Is it possible that the whole issue is the result of something no one's even really thought of yet, like maybe there was a batch of fuel tanks that had rough seams or some other defect on the inside, then metal shavings came through the tanks, along the fuel lines, rusted in the filter, fubar'd the HPFP, etc. That would explain why some cars have had multiple failures, too.

I'm just saying... I think a lot of people are getting wound up about it being the pump and/or the fuel, but maybe there's something else that could be causing the failures, and maybe the fix may be more basic than hoping for a pump redesign. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. :)
Fuel tank is plastic,supply and return fuel lines are plastic,fuel sending unit is plastic,low pressure fuel lines after the fuel filter are rubber. Lots of rubber and plastic. To generate the amount of metal that my wifes 09 had in the fuel system it had to be a moving metal component. I think we have already narrowed the failed component down to the hpfp.

dweisel
 
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MarylandJetta

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Location
Rockville, MD
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
Fuel tank is plastic,supply and return fuel lines are plastic,fuel sending unit is plastic,low pressure fuel lines after the fuel filter are rubber. Lots of rubber and plastic. To generate the amount of metal that my wifes 09 had in the fuel system it had to be a moving metal component. I think we have already narrowed the failed component down to the hpfp.

dweisel
Cool, thanks for the insight.
 

ArizonaTDI

Active member
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG RNS-510
75r90rider, your tone in this thread is much less alarmist than in the thread you started the other day! I wish you hadn't started that one. :)

I agree with your tone in THIS thread, in that the overall percentage of failures is very very small, and decreasing every day. We are well past 60,000 TDIs sold at this point. The frequency of failure posts seems to have slowed considerably from when the issue first arose, although that may only be my perception.

For my part, I'm interested to learn if there will be some remedy NOT involving replacement of the entire fuel system, thereby cutting the 10K cost. Perhaps cleaning is a possibility somehow? The consensus seems to be that the very small microscopic shavings cannot ever really be cleaned out of the system, and as long as they are present, the high-pressure componentry remains at risk of future failure. Nevertheless, I am hopeful something like this can be found to work, so some of us can undertake repairs in our driveways, or at a trusted guru.

Maybe someone can find a good cleaning method? Rod Bearing, can you fill us in on the techniques you currently employ when cleaning out failed diesels in your shop? You alluded to them in another thread long ago, and I've been holding out hope you'd describe the process and maybe offer an opinion on whether it might work for this scenario. Doubtful it would, I'm sure, given the extremely high pressures we're talking about, but it would be fascinating reading nonetheless.

Pretty please?



60000 TDIs sold in the US? There are 32 cases being mentioned here. There are probably more cars that have been totalled in accidents. Should VW redesign the Jetta and turn it into like a Panzer tank?

I am sure that it hurts when you get hit with a 10K bill. Turn it to the insurance, pay deductible, sell car, move on to something else.
My friend is selling a 2009 TDI stick with 150000 miles. NO PUMP FAILURE!!! Anyone interested?
 

leicaman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Location
Sheboygan, Wisconsin
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SE, 2005 TDI GLS, RIP
60000 TDIs sold in the US? There are 32 cases being mentioned here. There are probably more cars that have been totalled in accidents. Should VW redesign the Jetta and turn it into like a Panzer tank?

I am sure that it hurts when you get hit with a 10K bill. Turn it to the insurance, pay deductible, sell car, move on to something else.
My friend is selling a 2009 TDI stick with 150000 miles. NO PUMP FAILURE!!! Anyone interested?
Did that car ever stop moving?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
...
I am sure that it hurts when you get hit with a 10K bill. Turn it to the insurance, pay deductible, sell car, move on to something else.
...
Not everyone carries expensive insurance on cars like that. And it is sad that you'd have to for repairs and not some crash or something.
 

TwoTone

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Location
DMV
TDI
05.5 Jetta (sold)
60000 TDIs sold in the US? There are 32 cases being mentioned here. There are probably more cars that have been totalled in accidents. Should VW redesign the Jetta and turn it into like a Panzer tank?

I am sure that it hurts when you get hit with a 10K bill. Turn it to the insurance, pay deductible, sell car, move on to something else.
My friend is selling a 2009 TDI stick with 150000 miles. NO PUMP FAILURE!!! Anyone interested?

You're really going to compare a defect with crashing a car?
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
I would agree it's a bad analogy...but...still low number of confirmed failures...so far...
 

TwoTone

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Location
DMV
TDI
05.5 Jetta (sold)
I would agree it's a bad analogy...but...still low number of confirmed failures...so far...
True, I think the biggest issue comes from the cost. If this failure was a $200 repair, would we have this many threads about it?

The fact remains that when it does happen, the cost is close to 40% of the original cost of the car and that is what makes even a few of these unacceptable.
 

75r90rider

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Midwest
TDI
quite a few diesels over the years
75r90rider, your tone in this thread is much less alarmist than in the thread you started the other day! I wish you hadn't started that one. :)

I agree with your tone in THIS thread, in that the overall percentage of failures is very very small, and decreasing every day. We are well past 60,000 TDIs sold at this point. The frequency of failure posts seems to have slowed considerably from when the issue first arose, although that may only be my perception.
I'm still very concerned. The overall percentage of failures is low, yes. However, I think the big worry is that the overall fleet has a very low mileage on it right now. Will the pumps prove durable once the 60k powertrain warranty ends? I don't know about anyone else, but I bought a TDI car based on long term durability. If a couple years from now pumps are failing at even single digit percentage rates when the cars are out of warranty, enough $10k repairs on out of warranty cars will kill their reputation and resale value in the used market.

Yes, a low statistical failure rate sounds good, but I still think that the unusual rate of failure we're seeing does not bode well for the future owners of out of warranty cars. I, for one, will not be keeping my car out of warranty unless a definitive fix is found in the interim. I won't even keep it out of 3/36. At low 30's miles, I'm going to look at the situation and see how things have shaken out. If we're still dealing with a head in the sand VW, and there are no revised parts, I'm out.

Here is why I don't think the future bodes well. The Bosch common paper on diesel lubricity basically states that definite loss of durability occurs when using fuels with higher than 460 micron wear scar. US diesel is 520. Seems that the bottom line is, our fuel is just not good enough. This is probably, in my mind, why we are seeing a fair number of really early failures. Wear is likely accelerated in a non linear fashion once lubricity is out of a certain threshold. In other words, fuel that is 10% too high in wear scar rating does not mean 10% less component life. It may mean 30 or 50% less component life. Hence you see a few units fail really early, way ahead of expectation. As the overall fleet sees higher miles on poor fuel, I would expect component failure to increase fairly dramatically. The longer we run cars on 520 fuel, the more premature wear happens. This happens every mile on the car.

http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/common_position_paper.pdf

Read the part on lubricity in particular. I think when you have heavy hitters like those mentioned in the header, it is probably pretty legit. The components like the HPFP need 460 or lower rated fuel. Will the cars run on 520? Sure. Will they operate reliably for extended use? Hmm...

By the way, as far as being alarmist the other day...well, when you talk to some service guys and they basically scare the crap out of you, that does not make for a mellow mood when you get home. The tone I got from service was, be afraid, be very afraid, just like whatever movie that came from.
 
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75r90rider

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Midwest
TDI
quite a few diesels over the years
True, I think the biggest issue comes from the cost. If this failure was a $200 repair, would we have this many threads about it?

The fact remains that when it does happen, the cost is close to 40% of the original cost of the car and that is what makes even a few of these unacceptable.
Agreed. If you have one component, failure of which is this catastrophic, then you absolutely either need to have some kind of fail safe set up to mitigate failure-related damage, or you need to engineer that baby to where it just virtually NEVER fails and is bulletproof. Having a component that destroys everything when it fails does not work well when that component itself is fragile and is only reliable in a narrow range where everything goes perfectly.

The more catastrophic the consequences of component failure, the more you need to ensure the thing never fails. If you design a faulty radio antenna, big deal, it fails, you have no radio reception. Failure of the antenna does not set off a ten thousand dollar chain of events. So, you don't lose a lot of sleep making sure the antenna can survive WW3. Heck, the HPFP should be designed to run on a slurry of gorilla glue and diamond dust while still operating effectively, the consequences of failure are so high.
 

75r90rider

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Midwest
TDI
quite a few diesels over the years
Then improve it to 460 or better with your choice of additives, and stop worrying about 520 fuel.
That would be great except for two little issues. One, if I'm not mistaken VW does not approve use of additives under warranty. They send your fuel off for a lab test once your pump fails, and come up with some weird result and now you are at their mercy. Perhaps more importantly, we have no idea what the long term effect of additives are on the DPF, cat, etc. I doubt those systems are cheap to repair.

I personally think it's ridiculous to have a car on the market that isn't designed to run reliably long term on the commonly available fuel. You shouldn't have to prophylax your fuel supply constantly just to have a reliable car. That's absurd. Design the thing to run on what people have access to. It probably boils down to saving a hundred bucks per pump or spending it to get one that isn't so fragile.
 

IFRCFI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Location
Winchester, VA
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI Lux
You shouldn't have to prophylax your fuel supply constantly just to have a reliable car. That's absurd.
Absurd..yes. Reality..maybe.

The owners manual is mute on the subject of additives. Fuel dealers add different additives to their products. It would be difficult to prove who added what to the fuel.

Yes, when asked directly, you will get an e-mail response from VOA stating that "additives aren't recommended". There are several copies of that in threads.

But what else would VOA say, even if they knew that adding a lubricity additive would reduce the risks of pump failure? There is no way they would come out and recommend additives, even if there were benefits. They would be sued by people angry about needing additives, they would be sued for the cost of additives, they would be sued by people who didn't get the message about additives, etc, etc. The only thing they can do is keep quiet, and hope that it doesn't materialize into a major problem. Think about it. That is what they are doing now.

I'd rather risk using an additive based on studies and reports (Bosch, Spicer, etc), knowing that US USLD is not the consistent quality it should be, and that the standard is below the manufacturer's recommendation (Bosch). For me, it is a risk worth taking....hence the use of OL XPD from tank #1.
 
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