VW Official position on Biodiesel

JaxTDIBeetle

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What is VW's official posiition on Biodiesel? I know about VOLKSWAGEN AG AND ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND ANNOUNCE BIODIESEL RESEARCH AGREEMENT

However, what about the guarantee? Will the guarantee cover damage to the fuel system if biodiesel is used?
 

nh mike

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No vehicle manufacturer warrants fuel. If a problem occurs on any vehicle that is due to the fuel used (whether biodiesel, petro diesel, gasoline, etc.), the responsibility for fixing it lies with the fuel producer/distributor, not the vehicle manufacturer.
 

TANSTAAFL

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2002 Golf GLS TDI, Silver
JaxTDIBeetle and I have been having a conversation about biodiesel and availability in our area (Jacksonville, FL) over in one of the www.vwvortex.com forums, and in that thread he quoted your response to him here. (Check out http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1206487 ) I was wondering if you could provide an official source or sources (preferrably from VW themselves) regarding your statement. My understanding is that it is the manufacturer of the engine that is warrantying it, not the fuel manufacturer or supplier.

I quote from the National Biodiesel Board (NBB) "Myths and Facts" document (http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/Myths_Facts.pdf):

"Myth: Engine warranty coverage would be at risk.
Fact: The use of biodiesel in existing diesel engines does not void parts and materials workmanship warranties of any major US engine manufacturer."

Admittedly, it refers only to US engine manufacturers, but that doesn't change the greater implication here. And, anyway, I'm not certain about the practicality of going after Chevron or Shell if the local gas station sells me diesel that causes my engine to fail. (I also don't go to one particular station all the time. So how would I know which supplier's diesel caused the problem in the first place? I image that the burden of proof is going to be on me. Of course this isn't a really concern for me yet regarding biodiesel, since there are no suppliers in my area yet, anyway. And at least initially, when it comes I would probably patronize the same vendor. Particularly if there was only one! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif But again, conceptually, I have a concern with this. If an engine or fuel related problem did develop in my car, I predict lots of finger pointing between VW and the biodiesel supplier, and me stuck paying for repair work out-of-pocket.)

And please understand where I am coming from. I really, really do want to use B100 in my dub (a 2002 Golf TDI GLS). All the reading I've been doing on the subject (admittedly mostly from sources like NBB with a vested interest in this) has convinced me that biodiesel is the way to go. (It has also redeemed my choice to go with a diesel engine in the first place, despite the emissions problems using petroleum diesel.) But I have a new-ish TDI, and there is an assumed risk of switching to using biodiesel. Given the money I've invested in my vehicle, I just want to be certain that that risk is not mine to bear alone.

By the way, it looks like TDIClub or www.biodieselnow.com are the more appropriate forum sites for this topic. Way more postings on the subject here than at VWVortex! /images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

TANSTAAFL

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Nevermind, I think I answered my own question! (It would have helped if I had finished reading through the NBB site first! /images/graemlins/blush.gif )

If you take a look at the following page, you'll see that, in essence, we are both correct:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/fuelfactsheets/standards_and_warranties.shtm

The second paragraph in the "Engine Warranties" section basically echoes your statement. However, the third paragraph goes on to say: "the most important aspect regarding engine warranties and biodiesel is whether an engine manufacturer will void its parts and workmanship warranty when biodiesel is used, and whether the fuel producer or marketer will stand behind its fuels should problems occur." (My emphasis, of course.) So, the fuel manufacturer warranties the fuel, but the engine manufacturer has to bless its use.

They then go on to say:
"Most major engine companies have stated formally that the use of blends up to B20 will not void their parts and workmanship warranties. This includes blends below 20% biodiesel, such as the 2% biodiesel blends that are becoming more common."

B20 is certainly a good intermediary fuel, and will most likely be more generally available than B100 in the near term. (My ultimate goal, though, would be to use B100.) But the bottomline is that (according to a VW Customer Relations person I spoke with) VW has not yet approved biodiesel of any type in the US for use it its diesel vehicles, and so currently its use will void the warranty. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Time to put some pressure on VW ...
 
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SkyPup

Guest
It is really quite simple and very straightforward:

VWOA warrants all VE-37 distributor pumps and PD units on all TDIs under warranty. Bosch does all of the warranty service work on all fuel injection equipment for VWOA. If you use BioDiesel, your fuel injection equipment warranty is voided.
 

bean boy

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You can read many discussions here about this issue and you will see a couple different opinions. I have my opinion and it was confirmed by a call to the VW customer service number.

1. Under Federal law they warrenty the total vehicle against workmanship defects. Bosch warrentees the pumps to vw.

2. They do not have to cover any repairs done outside of warrenty. An example of outside of warrenty would include negligence on the part of the owner.

3. The use of biodiesel or any diesel fuel by itself does not cause an automatic void of the warrenty. If the problem is a defect that was not caused by the fuel, it is covered by warrenty. If the problem was caused by the fuel, vwoa does not have to cover it. If you walk in with a pump problem and say you are using biodiesel, they can say the biodiesel caused the problem when in fact it didn't. If you can show it wasn't the cause, they are on the hook.

see: tdi post

tdi
 

BeetleGo

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In my case, I always use the same pump. I pay with credit card, and I save the receipts. I can demonstrate a correlation between number of miles I've driven and gallons purchased. Should there ever be a problem, I believe I am more than usually capable of documenting where I got the fuel from. How many people who price-shop petrodiesel go that far to protect themselves against bad fuel?

While B100 is clearly the goal, B20 seems prudent to me and still displaces our dependence on foreign sources of oil. By the time B100 is widely available, I can't imagine this discussion even being relevant anymore.

My $.02, BeetleGo
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
The only thing that is relavent here is when it comes to using biodiesel and then applying for warranty service on your biodiesel destroyed fuel injection equipment, be sure to cover the costs yourself because your warranty will not.
 

Geordi

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For anyone wondering, the tally of biodiesel-destroyed equipment on this board of VW users is still..... ZERO. Yes it is POSSIBLE that biodiesel or any other fuel COULD do damage, if it was OUT-OF-SPEC. Damage caused by out-of-spec fuel is NEVER covered by the vehicle warranty, but it MIGHT be paid for by a dealer under their "customer satisfaction" slush fund, if you haven't been a jerk to them. This does not change the simple fact: Properly-specced biodiesel in any percentage has not been shown yet to damage the Bosch VE series of injection pumps, nor any other diesel injection pump.

Please do not feed the trolls.
 

bean boy

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Skypup said [ QUOTE ]
biodiesel destroyed fuel injection equipment

[/ QUOTE ]

Except there are no cases in this country of ASTM certified biodiesel, properly stored and used biodisel causing such failure.

Skypup will now proceed to post pictures that have already been documented as coming from a bad batch of european biod. He might even site the recent problems in California with bad biod. What he wont bother to tell you was that in both cases the owners didn't have to eat the cost. In both cases the biod retailers ultimately paid because the fuel was not suitable. I believe both cases involved using animal talow.

I have been runing various blends of biod in my 03 tdi with no problems. Becarefull with your supplier. Be carefull with storage, and use antigel when temps get to 30 degrees f.

Please feel free to research more at Biodieselnow.com, this site or Biodiesel.org. That is what I did before putting biod into my brand new car. Thank god I didn't let the troll postings scare me off.

If you have a lot of time on your hands, read the posting on this site to see why so many now ignore skypup.

You can certainly do as you like. I must admit to holding my breath and crossing my fingers for that first tank. I live in New England, so the cold weather issue forces me to me very carefull from Nov to April, but the rest of the year is b100 for me /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Be sure to tell your dealer when you wish 100% warranty coverage on your biodiesel destroyed fuel injection equipment that you always use biodiesel from 100% biodiesel preferred fuel markerters who always utilize biodiesel in all their ag equipment and delivery vehicles, he'll be most impressed at your honesty and your voided warranty.
 

AUMikeT

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I'm not a biodiesel nut, I've only run one tank of B100. I will admit that I liked it because my exhaust smelled like frenchfries /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Skypup, you always bash biodiesel, but I have seen no evidence posted by you or anyone else that shows that commercial biodiesel ruins engines like you claim. I don't know why you spend so much time and effort bashing the bio when you can give no definative proof. Why not just allow for different points of view??

I hope that biodiesel can become more of an option in this country so that we can have a true mainstream fuel not dependent upon foreign oil.

p.s. If I do anything that voids the warranty, I will take full responsiblity.
 

Geordi

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35K miles on B100 and my warranty is still in full force. To date, I have replaced.... Zero injection pumps. My dealership KNOWS that I run Biodiesel, and even gives out my number to prospective customers that ask them about biodiesel. That sounds a lot like my process has at least some approval from the dealership, since they also know that I make my own fuel and fully understand the workings of my vehicle and the implications of the M-M warranty act.

Gee, I guess biodiesel is really bad and terrible and must really damage engines, if my dealer sends customers to me for more information about using bio.

We need to invest in some troll spray for this board.
 

rwolff

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[ QUOTE ]

My dealership KNOWS that I run Biodiesel, and even gives out my number to prospective customers that ask them about biodiesel. That sounds a lot like my process has at least some approval from the dealership, since they also know that I make my own fuel and fully understand the workings of my vehicle and the implications of the M-M warranty act


[/ QUOTE ]

From your post, my guess is that the following apply:

1. Your dealer is more familiar than most with diesels.

2. Your dealer knows that you have a thorough knowledge of biodiesel, as opposed to some people who think "biodiesel" means "great - I can burn used deep-fry grease instead of buying diesel fuel".

3. Following from #2, your dealer knows that if you get a bad batch, you know not to put it in your tank, so the risk of you coming in with bio-related problems (which are almost invariably caused by bad bio) is less than (for example) the risk of an average purchaser coming in with lubrication-related problems because they saved $1 by getting the cheap SJ-rated 10W30 at kwiki-lube instead of using the proper oil for the car.

4. The sales department of your dealership knows that when people who express an interest in bio, the ability to use bio could mean the difference between their buying a diesel or a gasser, and since VW is the only game in town for diesel but one of many sources for gassers, it could mean the difference between buying VW and buying another brand.

5. The service department at your dealer knows that by referring someone to a knowledgable source when they first enquire about bio, it can mean the difference between a car that runs trouble-free for many years on good bio (or on dino if the customer learns the difference and realizes they can't get good bio) and one that winds up in the shop because they poured straight (unfiltered) deep fry grease into their fuel tank in -20 degree weather, with an owner who gets mad because the warranty doesn't cover the problem.

In short, a knowledgable user is unlikely to have problems with bio, and a knowledgable dealer recognizes this.
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a biodiesel nut, I've only run one tank of B100. I will admit that I liked it because my exhaust smelled like frenchfries /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Skypup, you always bash biodiesel, but I have seen no evidence posted by you or anyone else that shows that commercial biodiesel ruins engines like you claim. I don't know why you spend so much time and effort bashing the bio when you can give no definative proof. Why not just allow for different points of view??

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason he doesn't is that he owns a lot of land, and gets the USDA to pay him to NOT grow anything on the land (one of USDA's policies for preventing crop surpluses, paying landowners (even if they only claim to be farmers) to leave land fallow). If growing crops for producing biodiesel becomes much more common, the USDA is likely to stop paying farmers to keep land fallow, instead wanting them to grow biodiesel producing crops. So, he has a vested interest in trying to keep it from catching on.
 

nh mike

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A point to mention - do a search on this site for "failed injection pump" or something along those lines, in currently active threads. You will find a few cases of injection pumps dying. None of those cases involve biodiesel - all were people running on petro diesel.

There has been an ongoing thread for over a month now looking for ANYONE who has had their pump fail while using biodiesel, or have first hand knowledge of that happening to someone. There still have been no such cases.

If you use biodiesel, the main point is to be informed. Both biodiesel and petro diesel can have problems in cold weather. But, biodiesel can have these problems (clouding (which can plug a fuel filter, or gelling, which is worse) at warmer temperatures (which varies depending on the type of biodiesel). When you buy diesel from a filling station, they do all the thinking for the customers (presumably) - blending in kerosene and/or antigel additives to prevent cold weather problems. The biodiesel industry has not yet reached that stage, with most retailers just selling pure biodiesel, and expecting the customers to take care of any blending or additives.

Most problems that people have with biodiesel are either from really really poor quality biodiesel (of which there isn't all that much - only two cases I'm aware of in the US. But there have been many cases of poor quality tallow (lard) biodiesel causing problems in Europe. The moral? Don't use tallow biodiesel, particularly in the fall/winter).
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a biodiesel nut, I've only run one tank of B100. I will admit that I liked it because my exhaust smelled like frenchfries /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Skypup, you always bash biodiesel, but I have seen no evidence posted by you or anyone else that shows that commercial biodiesel ruins engines like you claim. I don't know why you spend so much time and effort bashing the bio when you can give no definative proof. Why not just allow for different points of view??

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason he doesn't is that he owns a lot of land, and gets the USDA to pay him to NOT grow anything on the land (one of USDA's policies for preventing crop surpluses, paying landowners (even if they only claim to be farmers) to leave land fallow). If growing crops for producing biodiesel becomes much more common, the USDA is likely to stop paying farmers to keep land fallow, instead wanting them to grow biodiesel producing crops. So, he has a vested interest in trying to keep it from catching on.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif LOL, don't you know that every single soybean grower in the US gets paid NOT to grow soybeans? heheheee...... I think you must have posted this 50 times by now all in vain....... /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Also, the tractors and semi's hauling the BioDiesel to market for sale are using PetroDiesel, not BioDiesel. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 

atomicalex

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die neue 2002 GLS Reflex Silver
Just curious, but do you guys know what part of BD causes these purported injector pump failures? I don't believe the actual problem molecule has been identified in print yet.
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, but do you guys know what part of BD causes these purported injector pump failures? I don't believe the actual problem molecule has been identified in print yet.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no individual problem molecule. The most likely POSSIBLE causes would be:

1. Degradation of incompatible elastomers. This is a common claim, but the problem is that biodiesel has the same elastomer compatibilities as ULSD. Since all vehicle and parts manufacturers should be using ULSD compatible elastomers in fuel components by now (since at least 1996), I think there is essentially no possiblity that this is a problem.

2. Corrosion due to water contamination. A possibility, but is something with any type of fuel that is not handled properly.

3. Excess glycerin. Definitely could cause problems, but is entirely a problem with poor quality fuel alone. In spec fuel does not have a problem here.

4. Fuel oxidation and resulting breakdown. A possibility, depends on the type of fuel, how it was stored, etc.. Biodiesel that was not allowed to become water logged has good shelf-life, with many many studies showing it to be on the order of several months. So, if this is what causes a problem, it would mean either (1) there was something wrong with the fuel (i.e. heavy water contamination that could increase rate of fuel breakdown) or (2) the fuel was stored for a very very long time. I am not aware of any problems that have actually been caused by this, although some people here have made the claim that this is a problem.

5. Improper cold weather use, especially with biodiesel made from WVO or tallow. The biodiesel industry has mostly not reached the stage of taking care of fuel winterization for the customer, as the petroleum fuel industry has. It can easily do so, but for the most part is not doing it yet. Just as non-winterized petro diesel can cause a vehicle to fail, and kill an injection pump in cold temperatures, biodiesel can do the same, but at higher temperatures. WVO and tallow biodiesel are very common in Europe, including Germany - despite the claims that they only use rapeseed biodiesel. The tallow and WVO biodiesel are not winterized, and apparently many people are attempting to use it in the winter without any blending. This is simply horrendous, and could very easily cause problems - not just keeping a vehicle from running, but killing a pump as well.

From the pictures in Bosch's presentation, it looks like all of the problems they presented were from tallow biodiesel use in winter, and/or very poor quality biodiesel (primarily water logged, and biodiesel with high glycerin content).

Proper use of ASTM certified biodiesel (i.e. don't use B100 in the winter in a cold climate without any additives, just as you shouldn't use non-winterized diesel in the same conditions) in a vehicle made with a ULSD compatible fuel system (i.e. 1996 or newer for VW) has not caused ANY problems that I am aware of, and none of the "biodiesel will kill your vehicle" folk here have presented any cases of that happening.

In case anyone is about to claim that Germany only uses rapeseed biodiesel, here are some biodiesel plants in Germany that use WVO and tallow:
http://www.biodiesel-intl.com/referenz_e/malchin.htm
http://www.biodiesel-intl.com/referenz_e/niederpoellnitz.htm
 

atomicalex

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[ QUOTE ]
3. Excess glycerin. Definitely could cause problems, but is entirely a problem with poor quality fuel alone. In spec fuel does not have a problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh good. HFRR tests were beyond conclusive. The stories I can tell! Discussion material for the May meeting of the mindless.
 

AutoDiesel

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Location
Pacific Northwest
[ QUOTE ]
In case anyone is about to claim that Germany only uses rapeseed biodiesel, here are some biodiesel plants in Germany that use WVO and tallow:

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think they are the only ones?

BUTLER, KENTUCKY / USA
Feedstock - used cooking oils and/or animal fats

Today, every modern BDI multi-feedstock plant offers the most advanced BioDiesel production technology in the world. The latest example is a plant in Kentucky, realised in cooperation with a big US rendering company, using used cooking oils and tallow with FFA content of up to 20% as feedstock.
------------------------------------------------------------

If you are using Griffin Industries biodiesel, you are burning some WVO and/or tallow biodiesel. It is not 100% tallow as they use it as a feed stock up to a certain percentage.

NHMike, if that information is oil, out of date, or has changed feel free to inform us all that it has.
I'm sure you will.

P.S. Just for your information, I will no longer be posting about the pro's or con's of biodiesel.
Only for informational purposes only. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Water is a major problem with all BD in all diesel fuel injection systems.
 

atomicalex

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die neue 2002 GLS Reflex Silver
[ QUOTE ]
Water is a major problem with all BD in all diesel fuel injection systems.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't tell Lubrizol....
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In case anyone is about to claim that Germany only uses rapeseed biodiesel, here are some biodiesel plants in Germany that use WVO and tallow:

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think they are the only ones?

[/ QUOTE ]
When exactly did I say that?

[ QUOTE ]
BUTLER, KENTUCKY / USA
Feedstock - used cooking oils and/or animal fats

Today, every modern BDI multi-feedstock plant offers the most advanced BioDiesel production technology in the world. The latest example is a plant in Kentucky, realised in cooperation with a big US rendering company, using used cooking oils and tallow with FFA content of up to 20% as feedstock.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, I am well aware of that plant, and that Griffin Industries is using some tallow in their biodiesel. I repeatedly tell people that if they are using biodiesel that has any tallow content in it, they need to be very very cautious about cold weather use, blending in kerosene preferably, and also using antigel additives. There are threads going on over at biodieselnow right now in which I have been telling people that.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are using Griffin Industries biodiesel, you are burning some WVO and/or tallow biodiesel. It is not 100% tallow as they use it as a feed stock up to a certain percentage.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not all Griffin Industries biodiesel has tallow in it, but some does. Again, I tell people to be very cautious using that. The problems in EUrope look like a result of people using 100% tallow biodiesel in the winter, or at least a very high amount of tallow biodiesel. Very bad idea. I only use soy biodiesel right now, with some WVO biodiesel in the summer. I advocate biodiesel from brassica crops (rapeseed, canola, mustard) and algae as options for the future, as well as biodiesel from thermal depolymerization and possibly from gassification and Fischer Tropsch synthesis of waste wood. In what part of my statements here have you concluded that I advocate use of tallow biodiesel?

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Just for your information, I will no longer be posting about the pro's or con's of biodiesel.
Only for informational purposes only. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Hm, I seem to recall reading that before.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just in case anyone is misunderstanding me - I am not a fan of using tallow biodiesel, especially in the winter. I *might* consider using SOME tallow biodiesel in the summer when the temperature is regularly over 80F. Other than that, I wouldn't. I think waste animal parts should be converted into biodiesel through thermal depolymerization, which gives better cold weather performance than turning it into biodiesel through transesterification (and for tallow biodiesel, anything below about 65F is "cold weather").

There is one, perhaps two plants in the US that use some tallow in making biodiesel. There are many many plants in Europe that use tallow, with some exclusively using tallow and yellow/brown grease, making biodiesel with VERY poor cold flow properties. I feel that that is the dominant factor in the problems Europe has been having.
 

JaxTDIBeetle

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Location
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VW New Beetle 1998 Red
Thank you for all your input.

My goal is to have Gate Petroleum Company sell Biodiesel for fleet and retail customers.

Why Gate? Because they are a local retailer based in Jacksonville, FL. They are a multi-branded distributor and they sell fuel to independently owned retail stations.

If I can get Gate to sell the fuel, maybe they will also included in their guarantee. For more info go to Gate guarantee.

I just wrote a letter to Gate and cc to all major news organizations in Jacksonville.

I urge those of you that have interest in Biodiesel being sold at Gate retail locations to write them as I did. Gate operates 150 service stations with convenience stores in seven Southeastern states.

Their contact information is:

Gate Petroleum Company
9540 San Jose Blvd.
Jacksonville, FL 32257
(904) 737-7220
 
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