NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

chudzikb

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Since the new Mazda Skyactive engines are reportedly getting 50 or more mpg in reasonable driving, why waste your time on a company that does not want your business?
Jack, so far the Mazda diesel has been made of unobtainium. Starting to lose faith whether it will ever appear on these shores. But, let's hope for the best.
 

tdibuzz

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2012 Jetta TDI - 55,800Miles - Was out on a business trip when my wife (owner of the TDI) called to give me the bad news. Car had lost power and that little hissing noise she always heard and complained about had multiplied! She managed to drive home in what she described "1st gear". Called a tow truck, dealer estimated 3.5k-5.5k for replacement of HPFP, low pressure pump and replacement of the entire fueling system... thank God it was still under the 60k warranty. The hissing sound is gone (according to wife). 12k of warranty on HPFP. Tried to buy extended warranty = DENIED. Love our TDI, wait WE LOVE OUR TDI, but feel shy about keeping it... :( will now trade it in for, yesss another TDI. It seems so unfair that two years of payments are down the drain. Thinking of going Passat this time. :/
 
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RabbitGTI

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Since the new Mazda Skyactive engines are reportedly getting 50 or more mpg in reasonable driving, why waste your time on a company that does not want your business?
Mazda has always built well sorted, fun to drive cars, but I'd wait a year or so before jumping on the Sky Activ Bandwagon.
 

kjclow

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Mazda has always built well sorted, fun to drive cars, but I'd wait a year or so before jumping on the Sky Activ Bandwagon.
So wiat a year or two after the product launch? That means I should be look ing at a 202? Mazda diesel?
 

RabbitGTI

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^^^ Don't know, are Sky Activ diesels on the ground and driving around in other countries? I would like a CX-5 diesel, lots of cargo room, nice interior, etc....
 

squeegee_boy

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The Skyactiv-D is on the ground in other countries, but not without issues of its own. Specifically, a number of them appear to make oil, due to fuel from the DPF regen getting past the rings into the sump. Mazda is offering something like 1200 mile oil change intervals on affected engines. Speculation is that Mazda is withholding the offering in the U.S. until they solve the issue. If that's the case, kudos to them.
 

Claudio

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can someone re link the document cited above from VW where they say that the life of the components has been rated for 94K miles? i cannot find it
 

JBell

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2012 Jetta TDI - 55,800Miles - Was out on a business trip when my wife (owner of the TDI) called to give me the bad news. Car had lost power and that little hissing noise she always heard and complained about had multiplied! She managed to drive home in what she described "1st gear". Called a tow truck, dealer estimated 3.5k-5.5k for replacement of HPFP, low pressure pump and replacement of the entire fueling system... thank God it was still under the 60k warranty. The hissing sound is gone (according to wife). 12k of warranty on HPFP. Tried to buy extended warranty = DENIED. Love our TDI, wait WE LOVE OUR TDI, but feel shy about keeping it... :( will now trade it in for, yesss another TDI. It seems so unfair that two years of payments are down the drain. Thinking of going Passat this time. :/

Just as another option for you....VW has been covering HPFP failures for well over the 60k warranty...but can't really delay the inevitable.
 

tdibuzz

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I like the car without a doubt, and I understand that parts such as the HPFP can fail since they are mechanical. I also understand that forums are prone to witch hunts that spread like wild fire. However, my concern is that these failures seem to happen more frequently then than should IMO. I would love to keep a reliable diesel for a long time, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with keeping the car out side of the drivetrain coverage. Even if the odds aren't that great, but consequence is great.
amen to that! This is where I'm at... Just had a Mazda 3 loaner for 3 weeks while my beautiful TDI was in the dealer getting the fuel system replaced (1st 3 weeks of November)... Close to 57k, and now I want to get rid of it... and having a lot of what ifs???? I'm gonna be brave and stick with VW TDi, but this stuff is scary.
 

tdibuzz

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can someone re link the document cited above from VW where they say that the life of the components has been rated for 94K miles? i cannot find it
I'm interested in the article too! Is the HPFP part of scheduled maintenance? I wonder how much would it be to just replace the HPFP??? :confused::eek:
 

RabbitGTI

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amen to that! This is where I'm at... Just had a Mazda 3 loaner for 3 weeks while my beautiful TDI was in the dealer getting the fuel system replaced (1st 3 weeks of November)... Close to 57k, and now I want to get rid of it... and having a lot of what ifs???? I'm gonna be brave and stick with VW TDi, but this stuff is scary.
Lots of stories like that. How the hell could this flaw not show up in bench testing of the motor or road testing of the cars?
 

JSWTDI09

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I'm interested in the article too! Is the HPFP part of scheduled maintenance? I wonder how much would it be to just replace the HPFP??? :confused::eek:
It is not officially part of the scheduled maintenance. As for price, you can mail order an HPFP for under $900 and installation should not be too expensive *IF* it is done at the same time as a timing belt job. The HPFP is driven by the timing belt so most of the labor would be part of the timing belt job anyway. My guess (and it is just that, I'm not a mechanic) is that it wouldn't add much more than $1k to the cost of a TB job. Would it be worth it? I have no idea.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Second Turbo

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Reading the tea leaves

> How the hell could this flaw not show up in bench testing
> of the motor or road testing of the cars?


Keep in mind that the TDI was off the US market for a couple of years, during which time EPA Tier 2 rolled out, with its terminal lubricity agent issues.

So the CR was developed in Europe, using EU spec diesel, which is both higher lubricity and more consistent lubricity than US (ASTM) spec fuel. By the time the CR was sold in the US, it was a no-turning-back committed platform.

I'll bet VW did see some fails in EU testing, but odds are they were all obvious misfuels. Still, the consequences were much more severe than for earlier TDIs.

For VW to have seen what was going to happen in the US prior to the 2009 intro, they would have needed to have perhaps 100 test units afield here.

That said, had they had a large number of test units, what would they have done in response to the failures? Well, they now have vast numbers of "test" units out there, years worth of 'em, and they have not done anything obvious to address the problem, other than yellow decals. The decal campaign suggests some surprise on VW's part.

I'd like to get a new TDI, but will skip the CR generation entirely at this point, and wait for customer beta test results on the upcoming EA288.
 

DubFamily

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using EU spec diesel, which is both higher lubricity and more consistent lubricity than US (ASTM) spec fuel.
Not trying to single you out or anything, but this has been bugging me for a while now. I constantly see posts with that quoted statement (or similar) but I have yet to see anything actually showing it to be true. Does anyone have any proof of this inferior US fuel?

Just want to know if there are tests out there (more recent than the 2005 "standard") that show US fuel is actually inferior? :confused:
 

kjclow

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It is not officially part of the scheduled maintenance. As for price, you can mail order an HPFP for under $900 and installation should not be too expensive *IF* it is done at the same time as a timing belt job. The HPFP is driven by the timing belt so most of the labor would be part of the timing belt job anyway. My guess (and it is just that, I'm not a mechanic) is that it wouldn't add much more than $1k to the cost of a TB job. Would it be worth it? I have no idea.

Have Fun!

Don
Sitting at 60k miles right now, I am considering adding a new hpfp to the timing belt change. Since it's taken me about 42 months to get here, I guess (hope) I have quite awhile to build up the funds for that.
 

JSWTDI09

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Sitting at 60k miles right now, I am considering adding a new hpfp to the timing belt change. Since it's taken me about 42 months to get here, I guess (hope) I have quite awhile to build up the funds for that.
I have considered the same thing. I am only at about 66k miles on an '09, so I also have lots of time to consider this and to save money.

Have Fun!

Don
 

bobt2382

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Add me to that list of potential swaps. Hope that we'll get some extensive info on the rumored changes made to the original design in order to make an informed decision on a newer version replacement. Perhaps there will even be way to adapt the older pumps to replace the current one when the time for the TB replacement.
 

tadawson

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But then again, if it is a minor defect in the pump causing this, you may be taking out one that is fine and replacing it with a bigger potential problem.

Hard to say what would be best . . . .

- Tim
 

mikedotd

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Honestly, I mean no offense guys, but if you're adding $1k HPFP's and early timing-belt replacements to your maintenance schedule... what's the point of these cars? My ALH was an awesome long-distance commuter car because of it's high MPG and low(-ish) maintenance costs...
 

JSWTDI09

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But then again, if it is a minor defect in the pump causing this, you may be taking out one that is fine and replacing it with a bigger potential problem.

Hard to say what would be best . . . .

- Tim
I have thought about this too.

Honestly, I mean no offense guys, but if you're adding $1k HPFP's and early timing-belt replacements to your maintenance schedule... what's the point of these cars? My ALH was an awesome long-distance commuter car because of it's high MPG and low(-ish) maintenance costs...
I (we?) said nothing about an early TB replacement. My thought was that if my HPFP lasted 'till 120k miles, I might replace the HPFP at the same time as the TB. If I change my TB before 120k is is because of time (dry rot) not because of mileage or HPFP replacement reasons.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Diesl

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Not trying to single you out or anything, but this has been bugging me for a while now. I constantly see posts with that quoted statement (or similar) but I have yet to see anything actually showing it to be true. Does anyone have any proof of this inferior US fuel?

Just want to know if there are tests out there (more recent than the 2005 "standard") that show US fuel is actually inferior? :confused:
Search for 'joint statement' (by fuel injection equipment manufacturers) or something like that. The latest version I have seen is from 2012.
link: http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/120730common_position_paper.pdf
Partial quote:
"Lubricity:
It is essential that the lubricity of the fuel as measured by the HFRR test specified in ISO 12156-1 meets the requirement of a wear scar diameter
not greater than 460 microns. In addition, it is recommended by the Diesel FIE manufacturers, that “first fill” of the fuel tank should be with fuel with
good lubricity characteristics (HFRR < 400 μm) in order to guarantee good “run-in” of the injection system components. The US diesel specification (ASTM D975-11) and others includes a lubricity value of 520 μm maximum (according to ASTM D6079-11). Fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 μm can adversely affect the lifetime of some fuel lubricated injection system components."
 

GTIDan

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Since the new Mazda Skyactive engines are reportedly getting 50 or more mpg in reasonable driving, why waste your time on a company that does not want your business?
It would appear to me that VW/Audi owns the diesel market. No one else has even tried to take the crown.

Did you read the comparison test in Motor Trend I think? They compared the VW Jetta TDI and Hybrid models against the Cruze, and Prius. The conclusion? TDI wins again. Works for me. We've been hearing about the Mazda and the rest of those beer cans from Japan for the past couple of years............where are they? Come on down and join the party and lets see whose still around five years from now.

It's been a long time since the NHTSA has looked at the HPFP issue and so far nothing. I'm betting they dismiss it as a waste of time within the next six to twelve months. As Shakespeare once said: Much Ado about nothing.
 

Lightflyer1

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Search for 'joint statement' (by fuel injection equipment manufacturers) or something like that. The latest version I have seen is from 2012.
link: http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/120730common_position_paper.pdf
Partial quote:
"Lubricity:
It is essential that the lubricity of the fuel as measured by the HFRR test specified in ISO 12156-1 meets the requirement of a wear scar diameter
not greater than 460 microns. In addition, it is recommended by the Diesel FIE manufacturers, that “first fill” of the fuel tank should be with fuel with
good lubricity characteristics (HFRR < 400 μm) in order to guarantee good “run-in” of the injection system components. The US diesel specification (ASTM D975-11) and others includes a lubricity value of 520 μm maximum (according to ASTM D6079-11). Fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 μm can adversely affect the lifetime of some fuel lubricated injection system components."
That is only a position paper and doesn't prove todays fuel is inferior. Those are the standards that the mfg's want. I believe US fuel has improved since 2009 and is better than the minimum standards currently specified. Testing was done in Texas in 2011 and from my memory there were only a few outliers that didn't meet or exceed the more stringent requirements of the TxLED regulations here. Widespread bio use of 2% to 20% is also common today here as well. Other states I have no idea of but I think we have some of the best diesel fuel in the country here. IIRC 2% bio in testing brought the HFRR rating down to the low 300's.

http://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/txled/cleandiesel.html
 

evantful

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It's been a long time since the NHTSA has looked at the HPFP issue and so far nothing. I'm betting they dismiss it as a waste of time within the next six to twelve months. As Shakespeare once said: Much Ado about nothing.
Until its your car.

If the issue truly was being blown out of proportion then this would have died down by now. But every week if not day theres a new "HPFP failed" thread. They happened and keep happening, now for years, frequently enough, even amongst just TDI Club's members that it warrants concern.

If no one was posting about issues they are actually having, then it would have probably been written off as a normal teething issues. But it keeps happening again and again.

And like has been stated before it wouldn't probably be as big of a deal if it didn't suddenly disable your car, didn't occur at relatively low mileage, and the key thing, cause $4,000 worth of damage in the process.

Car models throughout history have had components that are terribly faulty. In most causes people just deal with it. It happens. The difference here is that if our HPFP fails, the damage it inflicts after is worse than the part itself.

Its the kind of stuff that can really hurt the reputation of a company. Ask joe car customer what they know about Chylser transmissions from the 1980's and 90's.

A HPFP failure causes a lot more damage and cost of repair than a transmission failing.

Even though the NHTSA hasn't concluded yet on the issue and it seems like a long time, its really on par with everything else they do. It takes them forever do deal this. Look at the jeep fuel tank issue.
 

TDI2000Zim

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Until its your car.

If the issue truly was being blown out of proportion then this would have died down by now. But every week if not day theres a new "HPFP failed" thread. They happened and keep happening, now for years, frequently enough, even amongst just TDI Club's members that it warrants concern.

If no one was posting about issues they are actually having, then it would have probably been written off as a normal teething issues. But it keeps happening again and again.

And like has been stated before it wouldn't probably be as big of a deal if it didn't suddenly disable your car, didn't occur at relatively low mileage, and the key thing, cause $4,000 worth of damage in the process.

Car models throughout history have had components that are terribly faulty. In most causes people just deal with it. It happens. The difference here is that if our HPFP fails, the damage it inflicts after is worse than the part itself.

Its the kind of stuff that can really hurt the reputation of a company. Ask joe car customer what they know about Chylser transmissions from the 1980's and 90's.

A HPFP failure causes a lot more damage and cost of repair than a transmission failing.

Even though the NHTSA hasn't concluded yet on the issue and it seems like a long time, its really on par with everything else they do. It takes them forever do deal this. Look at the jeep fuel tank issue.
Not merely even amongst just TDI Club's members, but to the tune of 3% of the club members who own a post-2009 made VW TDi.

And if you count those who keep quiet, and those who have had the issue happen again in the same car, we are talking about 6% to 10%. The numbers alone are frightening, if not very informative.

I am convinced that the problem can be stopped altogether by replacing the CP4.1 and CP4.2, perhaps with an older design (CP1H), or by designing a new one. I think that stainless steel is called for in the main HPFP body instead of aluminum, which will make the HPFP be twice as expensive; BUT, if VW hurries and fields out such a replacement, it may avoid getting really hurt by class-action law suits. A $2000 stainless steel HPFP is cheap compared to falling in the hands of class-action lawsuits, or to prevailing winds blowing against diesel technology and foreign car makers.
 
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tditom

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That is only a position paper and doesn't prove todays fuel is inferior. Those are the standards that the mfg's want. I believe US fuel has improved since 2009 and is better than the minimum standards currently specified. Testing was done in Texas in 2011 and from my memory there were only a few outliers that didn't meet or exceed the more stringent requirements of the TxLED regulations here. Widespread bio use of 2% to 20% is also common today here as well. Other states I have no idea of but I think we have some of the best diesel fuel in the country here. IIRC 2% bio in testing brought the HFRR rating down to the low 300's.

http://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/txled/cleandiesel.html
The only TxLED changes are aromatics and minimum cetane. No change in lubricity, which is what is important to pump longevity.

There is no reason to believe that fuel distributors are adding any more lubricity additive than absolutely necessary to meet the ASTM wear scar standards (520 micron). What would compel them to do so?

I agree that multiple studies have shown that any measurable amount of biodiesel will bring lubricity to <460 micron wear scar.

The fact remains that 520>460 and the Bosch paper showed that wear scar >460 directly impacted fuel injection component longevity.
 

TDIwise

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FYI
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf
f. Volkswagen notes that the fuel analysis obtained from this study was directly caused by
this inquiry. Beginning with the NHTSA meeting in May 2011, in which initial fuel analysis
results were presented, Volkswagen has provided updated fuel analysis results in each
of its subsequent responses, dated December 16, 2011 and March 30, 2012.
827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.
In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186
of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not
have been properly lubricated.
59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required.
22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570µm and may have caused
increased wear.
4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% /
2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel
station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but
water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.
79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel
itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can
cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading
to failure.
252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct
impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible
gasoline content.
 
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