TDI vs. 2.0 Gas

Joined
May 23, 2017
Location
Barrie, 0n
TDI
01 Golf TDI 4dr
just wanted ask if anyone how reliable the 2.0 L gas engine after it gets past 350000 km. I currently own 01 golf TDI its in pretty rough shape looking to get another TDI but i came across a pretty reasonably priced 2.0 L gas jetta with 340,000 km on it. just curious if these cars are known to last longer then that or not?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
same motor pretty much

lots more electrics, bad news for relaibility
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
This comes up a lot here. Lots of misinformation gets thrown around, too.

For the record, there are MANY gasoline fueled VAG engines of the 2.0L size. It always helps to narrow down which one you are asking about.

Since you said "Jetta" and you are comparing it to your 2001 Golf, I will assume it is an A4 platform Jetta, which could have one of four different 2.0L gas engines from late 1999 to 2005. AEG, AVH, AZG, or BEV. They are all fundamentally the same basic engine, and share many parts, look mostly the same, run pretty much the same, etc.

AEG:

used late 1999 through very early 2001. Cable throttle (the last one sold here), and many have issues with bad oil consumption which is typically associated with the piston rings and coked up ring lands.

AVH/AZG:

used 2001-early 2004, not really sure what the difference is between the two, as they generally look the same and share all the same parts. They have a drive-by-wire throttle, improved valves, pistons, rings, different exhaust manifold and catalyst, aluminum valve cover (vs. steel on the AEG), improved ignition coil/module assembly, updated secondary air injection system, updated "industrially cracked" rods, and a few other minor details. These are pretty common engines, very sturdy, very reliable. Less likely to have the oil burning issue.

BEV:

used late 2004-early 2005, mostly the same as the AVH/AZG, just a couple more minor improvements. I think they changed the exhaust manifold slightly, and those may have the slightly smaller newer type injectors too.

All of these engines are based on the same engine family as the ALH, BEW, and BHW TDIs. They sometimes have issues with the evap system, most notably failed purge valves, catalytic converters (these had a warranty extension here... that of course has been used up by now), and sometimes ignition coils (they get cracks in them, and the spark jumps out the side instead of down the lead).

Some of these engines have secondary air injection, some do not. The ones that do will have broken air pump mountings. They are cheap and easy to replace, but they often get ignored and then the air pump bounces around loose, rubs holes in things, and the stupid expensive plastic air tubes break.

They use a hot-film MAF, like the TDIs of the same era, so they are subject to the same problems if crappy air filters are used. Same CTS, so those need replacement from time to time. Important to use the correct spark plug, which is why you need to know the engine code, as they are not all the same. Some use twin grounds, some do not. Misfires happen if the incorrect plugs are used.

The biggest downside? They are thirsty. I have owned a few of these, and while they will get the job done, they will do so using sometimes TWICE the fuel as an ALH does (seriously, I am not kidding). Part of it is that Volkswagen decided to bolt them to transmissions that are geared frightfully low. Imagine driving your ALH Golf in 4th gear down the highway. That is what it is like. They are a reasonably torquey engine for a gasser, but will feel anemic after driving a TDI around unless you ring them out a bit. But they are at least not an angry chainsaw engine like you find in a Civic or something, that needs to be wound out past 4k RPM all the time to get anywhere.

They are a great car, great engine, so long as you don't mind the fuel use. And they are one of the very few VAG engines that is OK with regular gas, but they do run a wee bit better on premium as the knock sensor input isn't constantly backing off the timing. Not a huge difference, but if you are a somewhat aggressive driver you can tell. Especially on the AVH/AZG/BEV. Those seem to have a bigger potential timing map in the ECU.

Hope that helps.
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
2005 Passat daily, a bunch of others in the graveyard out back...
agreed. way more than i ever knew about the MK4 2.0's. hell i didnt even know BEV existed.

wish we had a "like" button so we could give feedback on great info like that.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
There is actually a couple other variations of those engines, too. One has a variable camshaft (never seen one, the engine code is BBW) and there are some later ones that have a chain-driven dual balance shaft in the oil pan, and some that have a twin-path intake manifold (usually just found in the very last of the NB 'verts before they got the 2.5L).

Then of course this engine "came back" to us in 2011, when the base S trim NCS Jetta got a version of it, code CBPA which went away after 2016 and was replaced with a 1.4L turbo.

Some version of it is almost certainly still in use today somewhere in the world, now going on 20 years old.
 
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Rembrant

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
Since you said "Jetta" and you are comparing it to your 2001 Golf, I will assume it is an A4 platform Jetta, which could have one of four different 2.0L gas engines from late 1999 to 2005. AEG, AVH, AZG, or BEV. They are all fundamentally the same basic engine, and share many parts, look mostly the same, run pretty much the same, etc.
Since the OP is in Canada, I would also note that the A4 chassis cars were sold with the 2.0L gas engine right up until 2010 here, designated the "City" models. I had a 2009 A4 Golf myself, with the 2.0L gas engine and 5MT.

The biggest downside? They are thirsty. I have owned a few of these, and while they will get the job done, they will do so using sometimes TWICE the fuel as an ALH does (seriously, I am not kidding). Part of it is that Volkswagen decided to bolt them to transmissions that are geared frightfully low.
No kiddin!!. The 2009 A4 2.0L gas Golf I had I bought when it was only a couple years old with only about 40k miles on it. It was really like brand new. That car...driven the speed limit, hyper-miled and coasting to stops barely got over 30 MPG. Driven normally, a little over the limit, it got about 25 mpg, and pulling my little utility trailer, 20 mpg. That car, at 60 mph in 5th gear revved 3000 RPM.

The good?...It had all kinds of power in 5th gear...lol. Never had to downshift the car on hills, or to pass, or anything.

I think they're plenty reliable. One thing I would mention...I assume they have steel oil pans? It seems the 2.0L gassers around here always have replaced oil pans. I've never looked into it, but I assumed they were steel pans that were rusting out.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yeah, forgot about the City models. Didn't some of those get the 2.5L stuffed in them too? I always laugh when I see the 2.5L in the NB. It BARELY fits. Like, barely as in you cannot fit a finger between the intake plenum and the lock carrier in front, nor between the pulleys and the unibody rail on the side. The lowest pulley is about a half inch above the splash shield, because they had to not only fiddle with the accessory belt design to fit it all in, but they also had to make room for the hydraulic power steering pump.

Those run good, though. 170hp is quite a bit for the NB. :eek:
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I owned a 2000 Golf GLS 2.<slow> gasser before getting my 2002 Golf GLS TDI in 2002. I also owned an 02 Subaru WRX in between. The WRX ("Rex") was a blast to drive but made me a serious friend of OPEC with my driving around 1k miles/week. After being a serious friend of OPEC for a year with the WRX, something had to give. There also were some things I liked about the 00 Golf that I missed in the WRX so I was getting the itch for another VW. I had thought about getting a TDI back in 2000 but couldn't find any at the time and I wasn't very TDI aware yet. When I decided to get out of the gas guzzling WRX and into a VW again, I decided it had to be Golf and it absolutely HAD to be a TDI this time around. I haven't regretted that decision one bit. :cool:

While my 00 Golf 2.0 gasser was reliable, my 2 complaints were that it was a gas hog and an oil drinker. It had the AEG engine, IIRC. I kept an eye on the oil level and had to add about a half a quart every 2k miles to keep it topped off.

Since I've owned a Golf 2.<slow> gasser and a Golf TDI, I've had experience driving both. Mine had 5-speed manual transmissions. 0-60 and 1/4 mile times and speeds for each car are similar but doesn't tell the whole story. Each car drives differently. The TDI drives 100% better overall IMHO due to the TDI's superior torque characteristics. And while I like to drive spiritedly and regularly put my foot into it, I never bought a diesel car to win drag races. Driveability in normal every traffic situations matters way more to me than winning drag races and that's why I like the low end grunt from the diesel's torque. The TDI's better fuel economy and 700+ mile tank range comes as a bonus. This made the TDI perfect for my logging 1k miles/week between my daily commute and having a life outside of work.

This thread reminds me about a bone stock Mk4 TDI compared to the 2.0 gasser described in the original TDIFAQ from 2002. The old phrase "People buy horsepower but drive TORQUE" says it all.

Original TDIFAQ from 2002 said:
http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/

Shifting Gears - Much has been made about what the best shift point is for maximum economy. It is known that the engine "likes" running at around 2000 rpm, and the turbo starts kicking in at about 1500 and is going full tilt by 2000. The author prefers shifting at about 2500 rpm during normal acceleration, then when cruising speed is reached, selecting a gear which puts the revs between 1500 and 2000.

For absolute maximum acceleration with a stock engine, shift at about 4000 rpm, because power drops off quickly beyond this. There is little to be gained by shifting at 4000 compared to shifting at 3500.

For those not accustomed to manual transmissions, the TDI engine is among the easiest to learn with. The engine quickly and automatically builds up torque if the idle speed starts dropping, and the engine doesn't race away like mad upon the slightest touch of the accelerator pedal like many gas engines do. It's possible to smoothly let out the clutch and start off from a stop, then shift to second, and then to third, without touching the accelerator, and the car will pull it!

For those who don't want to shift for themselves, there is limited availability of an automatic transmission with the TDI engine.

Performance - It has been said that "people buy horsepower, but drive torque". This statement completely describes why the TDI engine is so easy to live with during day-to-day driving, despite the seemingly low horsepower rating!

A typical multivalve 2-litre gasoline engine may have its maximum horsepower (perhaps 120 or so) at 5500 to 6000 rpm, and its maximum torque (perhaps 120 lb-ft or so) between 3500 and 4000 rpm, and is probably geared to run about 2700 rpm at 100 km/h. In top gear at highway speed, the engine is below its peak torque, and probably makes around 51 hp at that speed. A downshift is usually needed to make a quick pass, or to get up a steep hill. If the car has an automatic transmission, the torque converter will probably unlock going up moderate hills, in order to get the engine closer to its peak torque.

With the TDI engine, maximum horsepower (90) is available at 3750 to 4000 rpm, and maximum torque (155 lb-ft) is available at just 1900 rpm. The engine runs 2100 rpm at 100 km/h and makes about 62 horsepower at that speed. Hey, that's more than the gas engine ... by quite a bit, too! Thus, no downshift is required to make a pass or to climb virtually any highway grade. And if the car has an automatic, it won't unlock the torque converter, because peak torque is right there already.

If you enter a drag race between these two cars, the gas car will probably win, because drag racing is about horsepower-to-weight ratio and little else. But who drives like that every day? Most people don't. Even people who think they do - usually don't.

For what it's worth, owners report 0 to 60 mph times with a stock car ranging from about 10.5 to 12 seconds (mostly depending on the weight of the car) and top speeds well in excess of what one ought to be doing on North American highways. In other words, not too different from the performance of a 2-litre gas engine in a similar car. The cars that the VW TDI is installed in were all designed to handle autobahn cruising at 160 km/h (100 mph) with ease and all models will exceed that easily, so if you're buying a diesel in the hope of reducing the number of speeding tickets you get, you'd better find a different excuse!
No more high revving, gas guzzling, torque-less gassers for me! :) I've owned my share of high revving torque-less Honda gassers before getting into VW and TDIs. After 15 years of diesel car ownership starting with my 02 Golf TDI in 2002 and logging over 800k miles since then in diesel vehicles, there is absolutely no way I'm ever going back to a gasser ever again if I can help it. :cool:

Good luck.
 
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Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
To be fair, it's 2017 now and my Mk7 GTI has more horsepower and torque than my Mk7 TDI, and the MSRP between the two was negligible. They just serve two different purposes for me.
 

Rembrant

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
Yeah, forgot about the City models. Didn't some of those get the 2.5L stuffed in them too?
No, not that I've ever seen at least. As far as I know, they were all 2.0L gassers. The 2.0 City Jettas are somewhat rare...at least out my way...I only see one of those every week or two. The City Golfs...man, the VW dealers here pumped truckloads of them off the lots between 2008-2010. I see a dozen of 'em every single day. The 2007 models are a bit harder to spot...they were identical in appearance to the previous models, but the 2008-2010 models had different front and rear lights, etc.

There were a couple local guys that dropped 1.8t engines into the City Golfs. Pretty easy swap since everything bolts right in.

The later year Mk4 cars in Canada caused at least one problem that I'm aware of...lol. I know of not one, but two people that bought winter rims and tires from the City models thinking they were going to install them on Mk5 Jettas and Golfs. Boy were they surprised when they didn't fit.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Two questions, since the OP has graciously allowed us to discuss the 2.0 gassers:

1) Did the City Golf/Jetta get a single DIN head unit with CD? If so, does anyone up north have a p/n?

2) My sister's 2.0 (2004 BEV code) has the broken air pump mountings that Brian mentioned above. Of course one of the plastic hoses also cracked. I replaced the hose with a salvage yard item, but can't find a p/n for new mountings?

3) Did the 2.0 gasser in North America ever come with the improved auto similar to the BEW, or was it only the Jatco 4 speed?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Two questions, since the OP has graciously allowed us to discuss the 2.0 gassers:

1) Did the City Golf/Jetta get a single DIN head unit with CD? If so, does anyone up north have a p/n?

2) My sister's 2.0 (2004 BEV code) has the broken air pump mountings that Brian mentioned above. Of course one of the plastic hoses also cracked. I replaced the hose with a salvage yard item, but can't find a p/n for new mountings?

3) Did the 2.0 gasser in North America ever come with the improved auto similar to the BEW, or was it only the Jatco 4 speed?
All the 2.0L engines mentioned above got bolted to the Volkswagen (in house, not a Jacto) 4sp slushbox, the infamous "01M", same as the ALH got EXCEPT the very late NB 'verts and the NCS Jettas. Those got bolted to the Aisin 09G 6sp automatics.

06A-133-567-A is the part number for the air pump rubber mounts. Three are required. I keep a handful here on the shelf. :)
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Thx Brian! Appreciate the info as always! I think the auto trans in her car is starting to go (157k mi). The car has had such good maint (and no rust), I'm thinking about saving it with a 5 speed stick conversion. Hard to convince myself that the 2.0 is worth it, but (to answer the OPs question), it's pretty stout, if not especially fast or frugal. Plus, I love saving old VWs- if you can call any Mk IV old compared to their predecessors.
 

Rembrant

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
Two questions, since the OP has graciously allowed us to discuss the 2.0 gassers:

1) Did the City Golf/Jetta get a single DIN head unit with CD? If so, does anyone up north have a p/n?
I don't have any part numbers...but I could get them easily enough. For some strange reason, I believe the 2007 City Golf's came with a single DIN factory radio. I looked at one for sale up the road a couple months ago, and it just had a single DIN VW deck with a blanking plate in the upper slot...same as this car here:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...07/1267300939?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

The 2008-2010 Golfs had double DIN radios...which were actually single DIN radios with a double DIN faces. As far as I know, they're plug and play in the older Mk4 cars that came with single DIN radios, but you have to use adapter harnesses if you install one in a Mk4 that came with a full Double DIN radio (2002-2006?). There is a bunch of info here on the forum about them if you search. This is what they look like:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=476555&highlight=city+radio

Pretty common to find them for sale in Canada for $100 bucks or less (or about $70 bucks USD).

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-car-audio-gp...ux/1234375340?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Hi Rem! Thanks so much for the info! Yes, I think I've read all the threads (at the time and through various searches) on the various Mk IV head units. The one I'm looking for is the most unusual one (I think): It's the single DIN, with CD, found in some City versions, and in the South and Central American markets. The other searchers have either found one via ebay MX, found a used one up north, or gone to the dreaded aftermarket. There also some Euro versions, but these don't allow a perfect match for radio frequencies, so those won't work.

I've found one or two from Mexico, but these were silly $. I've searched the Canadian used parts online, which revealed a few possible matches, but many places double the cost of the unit with shipping- and I wasn't even sure of the p/n was correct.

I bought one from ebay for cheap, but the p/n doesn't match the City versions, and (from an exhaustive search) I found one thread somewhere that said only the City versions could be coded to work with Monsoon. I think the one I have is from Brazil. I'm going to get a safe code for it and see if it even works. Might be a paperweight.

My goal is to swap my double DIN Monsoon for an OE single DIN with CD, do the wiring with the OE adapter kit, code it for Monsoon (if possible), and put triple gauges where the cubby would go.

In your pix, I think the one I'm looking for might be in that silver Golf, but the pic is small (and my eyes seem old). What I really need to do is get myself up north, visit some salvage yards, and confirm part numbers and connections on the back of the units.
 

Rembrant

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
The one I'm looking for is the most unusual one (I think): It's the single DIN, with CD, found in some City versions, and in the South and Central American markets.
I looked around online for a few minutes, and it looks like the 2007 City Golf was the only "later" Golf that came with the factory single DIN radio. I looked at about 10 of them just now, and they all had single DIN radios in the bottom slots, with a blanking plate on the top slots.

Check this car...pretty decent picture of the radio. CD slot, and it even looks like it has a USB socket in the lower RH corner.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...le/1262618595?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

The 2006 and earlier Golfs had the original double DIN radio, and the 2008-2010 Golfs had the later double DIN radio. The 2007 Golf seems like the odd guy out...

I have no idea what was in the Mk4 City Jettas...I hardly ever see them on the road or elsewhere. The City Golfs are everywhere.

I'll get the VW part number & price for the single DIN radio for you tomorrow. I have to go to the dealer and pick up and order anyway.

If you really want one of those radios, I'm sure I could find you one. I'm guessing a used one could be had for $100 or less, and it would be $25 to ship to you. PM me if you want.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Location
Maryland and New England
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
Hi Rem! Thanks so much for the help!

That single DIN from the City Golf is different from both the one I bought off ebay, as well as some of the pix posted previously on Fred's! If able, the p/n would be much appreciated! My wife and I have been talking for years about getting up to NB, NS, and PEI, so maybe we can have a mini TDI GTG!

I'll try to find out what sound options were available for the city cars in '07. I'm likely to try to do it anyway, but it's icing on the cake if it can be coded for Monsoon.
 
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