Crank no start

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
Picked this car (2002) up for free from a pissed off TDI owner :)
Anyhow, here's some background. PO lent out his car to a friend who ended up putting half a tank of gasoline into it . Car was then driven for a few days before the mistake was discovered. They emptied the tank and refilled it with diesel - nothing was flushed or replaced. It is my understanding he drove it for a few days after with only slight misfires, then the following week he had a crank no start condition.
Here's a video of the engine cranking. I have zero experience with diesel engines, but too me the engine does not sound healthy (metallic clunk)
https://youtu.be/dTT8vTGSQU0

VCDS pulled these codes:

Monday,19,June,2017,21:06:42:53125
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x86
VCDS Version: 17.1.3.0
Data version: 20170320 DS267.7
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: 3VWSP69M72M030655 License Plate:


Chassis Type: 9M (9M - VW Jetta IV (1998 > 2014))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
75 76

VIN: 3VWSP69M72M030655 Mileage: 341140km-211974miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.lbl
Part No: 038 906 012 FD
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G000AG 4102
Coding: 00001
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 57B790D6B5C2E1F9F8-4A9C
3VWSP69M72M030655 VWZ7Z0A3977939

5 Faults Found:
17056 - Cylinder 2 Glow Plug Circuit (Q11)
P0672 - 35-10 - Electrical Fault - Intermittent
17057 - Cylinder 3 Glow Plug Circuit (Q12)
P0673 - 35-10 - Electrical Fault - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 35-00 -
16687 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16688 - Cylinder 4
P0304 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 1 2 0 0 0

I replaced to two faulty glow plugs and confirmed that the glow plug wiring is good


Other checks:
I have a faulty Lift pump - does not operate with 12V applied to it
ASV works correctly
Fuel shut off valve gets 12V with key turned on
Glow Plug light illuminates with key on ( Relay 109 good)
No fuel obstructions at fuel filter. My mity-vac had no problems pulling fuel from the tank
No serious soot blockage at the EGR

So I'm leaning towards a fuel issue for this NSC.

Would a non functioning lift pump cause a no start for these AHL engines? I am also wondering when the tank was emptied, air might have been trapped/introduced into the lines when the diesel was pored back in = no start. Would gasoline have damage my injection pump?


Thoughts/ suggestions welcome :)
 
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KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
ALH's typically don't have an external lift pump. It's built into the injection pump.

How much fuel was in the tank when the half tank of gas was added?

Maybe hang a bottle of fuel from the hood and plumb it directly into the IP and see if it goes.
 

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
First off I would like to apologize for the really late response. Life got in the way and I didn't have time for any feedback

Anyhow some updates:

I don't know how much gas was put into the tank. I decided to replace the injectors and injection pump to be safe.

I later learned that the owner experienced a runway engine however, was able to shut off the engine when it was redlining

I did a compression check and 1-2 was around 160 psi and 3-4 had zero. So here's the cause of my no start condition :)

All four rods where bent and the cylinders nicked

Picked up a used block and got it hot tanked, decked, rebored.
I also got the crankshaft polished and rods honed

The original head ( from the run-away engine ) was put back into service. Old valves and seats reground and new valve guides, seals installed

Timing belt kit, seals and other goodies coming kermatdi

Anyhow, I would to continue to use this thread for any questions/ feedback for my ALH rebuild




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BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Thanks for posting Back. Sounds like you got the whole enchilada.
Usually these stop running much quicker, there must have been a lot of diesel in the tank for it to run days after the gas.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
But what caused the runaway? I hope you checked the TC carefully. Might need that too.
 

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
But what caused the runaway? I hope you checked the TC carefully. Might need that too.

Yessir, the first thing I checked was the intercooler for oil - there was nothing in there so I can rule out the turbo. I am however going to send the turbo in to get inspected just to be on the safe side.

That leaves the injection system, valve stem seals, rings, or over filling as suspects for my run away





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mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
Ok...
Before sending the rods to the machine shop they where marked (with liquid paper) for cylinder location and direction. After the honing and cleaning they stamped the cylinder number on the rod(s) however they did not re-mark the direction.

I googled this and found nothing. The Bentley manual has a different image (dimples) of the rod than what I have in my hand so I'm reluctant in using that as my source

Can someone confirm the proper rod orientation for me. Does the two horizontal lines on the bottom of the rod point towards the timing belt side of the engine?

Like this:






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mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
Well I now have the block up on the engine stand prepping/cleaning it for paint and I just notice this:

The crank position sensor sleeve is deformed and the CKP sensor won't fit into the block.

I just checked the spare parts catalog for VW and there isn't any part listed. Does anyone have access to ETKA that could check to see if I can get an replacement sleeve for my block- I would really appreciate it. If not, I suppose I can try to pull one out of a parts car using a blind puller and a slide hammer. However, I'm sure I'll just damage it and I'll be back to were I am now
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BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
I doubt it's in the ETKA, but I tried to look it up with the VIN from your OP, I don't see any TDI for 2002 and none with ALH (or AHL) engines. I got something wrong.
 

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
I doubt it's in the ETKA, but I tried to look it up with the VIN from your OP, I don't see any TDI for 2002 and none with ALH (or AHL) engines. I got something wrong.


Thanks for help Bob I appreciate it!

Im going to PNP on Thursday to see if I can pull that sleeve off another ALH block. If that fails, I might attempt to bend the lip back a tad so the sensor will fit


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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I might attempt to bend the lip back a tad so the sensor will fit
By "lip" are you referring to the insert? If so, seems that you could get something that matches that flare and tap the lip back in to shape. First thing to come to MY mind would be a 3pt hitch pin (CAT1) off a tractor implement: they have nice tapers on them. Not sure if the block's casting there (looks like a repair?) obstructs true conformity (even if you had a replacement sleeve would it stay in proper shape?).
 

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
By "lip" are you referring to the insert? If so, seems that you could get something that matches that flare and tap the lip back in to shape. First thing to come to MY mind would be a 3pt hitch pin (CAT1) off a tractor implement: they have nice tapers on them. Not sure if the block's casting there (looks like a repair?) obstructs true conformity (even if you had a replacement sleeve would it stay in proper shape?).


Yessir I was referring to the insert.
I like your suggestion on the repair. I ended up taking a 12mm socket, inserted it into the hole and gently tapped it from the side. Looks good and I just saved myself a trip to the yard.

I remembered the machine shop had provided a bag of old parts that where taken off the block. I was about to throw them out last week but forgot. Anyhow, I just checked and there was the old broken CKP sensor in there. This one fits perfectly! I guess there are two different sensors out there for the ALH block.

Here's what I'm talking about:



The one on the right came off the 2002 ALH ( the runaway) and the left, was from a 1999 ALH pulled from the junkyard. They both measure 17.9mm in diameter and 41.6 mm in length. The newer one had "step" at the end which prevented the sensor to be inserted all the way into the block.

Edit: Here's a better picture of the sensor from the older 1999 block:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crank-Posi...9-TDI-AHU-Genuine-028-907-319-B-/351666922174

Notice is says crank sensor for AHU block. I wonder if I have a mix-match of parts going on here? Like a AHU sensor on a ALH block. It was on a cutoff year for the Mk3 I pulled up my car info from Pick N Pull's website. Here's the VIN: 3vwrf29m3xm031979
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Might want to check VW's part numbers (I use 1stvwparts.com). Yes, mid-year changes really can make for a pain in the behind! Anyway...

Good job on tracing this all down.
 

mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
Might want to check VW's part numbers (I use 1stvwparts.com). Yes, mid-year changes really can make for a pain in the behind! Anyway...

Good job on tracing this all down.


Will do!
It's a bummer I didn't do more research on the change over year. Well it's too late now. The block is done and is on the engine stand

Here is the game plan:

I've pulled the CKP sensor connector off a AHU and will transfer it over the the ALH harness



I know I have a Hall Effect Sensor for the CKP so there will be three wires: reference, signal, ground

Here's the AHU wiring diagram:



Black wire (T3/3) = ground
White wire (T3/2) = signal
Yellow wire T3/1) = reference

And the ALH :



Black wire (T3/3) = reference
White wire (T3/2) = signal
Brown wire (T3/1) = ground

So with my ALH engine harness connected to the AHU CKP, my wiring at the connector should look like this:

Yellow wire ->T3/3 (reference)
White wire ->T3/2 (signal)
Black wire -> T3/1 (ground)
 
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mr.loops

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Location
Kelowna
TDI
2002 jetta, 2003 Bora 1.8T
You sure that's not something that broke off a previous sensor?


**** you where right!
Part of the crank sensor had broken off in the block. You couldn't tell by the old one because it looked perfectly intact



So I'm back on track. Sorry for the confusion guys


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