Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

aja8888 said:

Now that's cool!

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at $70K not cool enough lol

When did butt ugly become cool? (Enquiring minds want to know . . . . )

Electrify America opens it's first fast chargers.
http://www.chicopeema.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=312

El Dobro said:

Electrify America opens it's first fast chargers.
http://www.chicopeema.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=312

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Do you buy the charge with a credit card?

aja8888 said:

Do you buy the charge with a credit card?

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I don't know. I checked VW's site, but I couldn't find any rates. Maybe it depends on where it's installed.
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/

aja8888 said:

Do you buy the charge with a credit card?

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I found this.
https://electricrevs.com/2018/05/02...-initial-prices-adds-location-map-to-website/

El Dobro said:

I found this.
https://electricrevs.com/2018/05/02...-initial-prices-adds-location-map-to-website/

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Thanks, lots of info.

I figure TDIClub should be second to know (after Mrs.):
I'm buying a Volt and selling my TDI.

Here's why:

Well to wheels emissions reductions from using high percentages of biodiesel sourced from post-consumer waste is not possible with recent / current diesel offerings.

Emission controls developed to mitigate petroleum diesel's measured emissions have caused a near parity in fuel use rate and power production with petroleum gasoline. Diesel fuel economy has diminished, gasoline power has climbed.

Cost per BTU for petroleum diesel and gasoline are near par.

Purchase price premium for the diesel option has a long break even timeline.

I'm no longer travelling 40k+ miles/yr. for business, with personal miles on top of those. I'm have been at about 10k miles total per year.
My work for the past 10 years has been just 10 miles from home and I anticipate that to remain constant until my retirement.

My municipal (non-profit, town owned) electric is 75% from non-fossil sources.

My off-peak time-of-use electric rate is 6.73c/kWh (1.2 energy, 5.53 distribution).

So I'm buying a used Volt. Yeah it has just over 25 miles of plug-in battery range. That's fine for the work commute and about 1/2 my annual miles. Yeah it won't get 45 mpg when the on-board gen turns on to hold battery charge at the remaining reserve, but it won't be 25 mpg either.

Don't get all giddy that I'm finally going away. I'm still here, even if with a mere biodiesel sipping IDI lawn tractor.

Jon,

Tell us about the Volt you purchased. What year, how many miles, and what are used Volts selling for.

A long time car guy buddy of mine leased a 2014 Volt new, then at the end of the lease he ordered a brand new 2017 Volt. He has been very pleased with each car ever since.

John Jackson

FYI, in our 2014 ELR (which uses a tuned up Gen1 volt drivetrain) now that spring is here I'm seeing ~40 mile range on electric (the guess-o-meter normally says 45 in the morning), and when driving long distances on gas ~43 mpg at ~75 mph.

Our off-peak electric rate is about $0.03/kWh, so the savings come quickly!

Lug_Nut said:

I figure TDIClub should be second to know (after Mrs.):
I'm buying a Volt and selling my TDI.

Here's why:

Well to wheels emissions reductions from using high percentages of biodiesel sourced from post-consumer waste is not possible with recent / current diesel offerings.

Emission controls developed to mitigate petroleum diesel's measured emissions have caused a near parity in fuel use rate and power production with petroleum gasoline. Diesel fuel economy has diminished, gasoline power has climbed.

Cost per BTU for petroleum diesel and gasoline are near par.

Purchase price premium for the diesel option has a long break even timeline.

I'm no longer travelling 40k+ miles/yr. for business, with personal miles on top of those. I'm have been at about 10k miles total per year.
My work for the past 10 years has been just 10 miles from home and I anticipate that to remain constant until my retirement.

My municipal (non-profit, town owned) electric is 75% from non-fossil sources.

My off-peak time-of-use electric rate is 6.73c/kWh (1.2 energy, 5.53 distribution).

So I'm buying a used Volt. Yeah it has just over 25 miles of plug-in battery range. That's fine for the work commute and about 1/2 my annual miles. Yeah it won't get 45 mpg when the on-board gen turns on to hold battery charge at the remaining reserve, but it won't be 25 mpg either.

Don't get all giddy that I'm finally going away. I'm still here, even if with a mere biodiesel sipping IDI lawn tractor.

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I think you'll like the Volt a lot. I would also expect EV range to be closer to 40 miles in the summer, which should cover a larger portion of your daily driving needs.

Car54 just bought a new Gen 2 Volt with some great incentives and is getting about 55 miles of EV range.

Lug_Nut said:

I figure TDIClub should be second to know (after Mrs.):
I'm buying a Volt and selling my TDI.
Here's why:
Well to wheels emissions reductions from using high percentages of biodiesel sourced from post-consumer waste is not possible with recent / current diesel offerings.

Click to expand...

Not really true: https://dieselhpr.com
There are others being developed.

Lug_Nut said:

Emission controls developed to mitigate petroleum diesel's measured emissions have caused a near parity in fuel use rate and power production with petroleum gasoline. Diesel fuel economy has diminished, gasoline power has climbed.

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Not really true. EPA still favors gasoline cars in both their mpg ratings and pollution - especially with particulate matter.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/bosch-claims-a-diesel-emissions-breakthrough-but-is-it-too-late

Lug_Nut said:

Cost per BTU for petroleum diesel and gasoline are near par.
Purchase price premium for the diesel option has a long break even timeline.

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Arguable at best, but $1500 compared to using premium gives diesel the edge.

Lug_Nut said:

I'm no longer travelling 40k+ miles/yr. for business, with personal miles on top of those. I'm have been at about 10k miles total per year.
My work for the past 10 years has been just 10 miles from home and I anticipate that to remain constant until my retirement.

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Good for you

Lug_Nut said:

My municipal (non-profit, town owned) electric is 75% from non-fossil sources.
My off-peak time-of-use electric rate is 6.73c/kWh (1.2 energy, 5.53 distribution).

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The cost per mile for electricity in the near future will depend on usage and need for infrastructure improvement, as well as future developments in solar technology that currently don't seem to be cost-effective for everyone.

Lug_Nut said:

So I'm buying a used Volt. Yeah it has just over 25 miles of plug-in battery range. That's fine for the work commute and about 1/2 my annual miles. Yeah it won't get 45 mpg when the on-board gen turns on to hold battery charge at the remaining reserve, but it won't be 25 mpg either.
Don't get all giddy that I'm finally going away. I'm still here, even if with a mere biodiesel sipping IDI lawn tractor.

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I've heard great things about Volt. Styling is a personal preference.
TM

Since ULSD was required of North American producers, it has become marketable internationally and the US is a net exporter of diesel. Europe has even heavier demand for diesel and in its production exports its excess gasoline to the East Coast of North America. The price of gasoline has dropped compared to the higher demand of diesel. Yes, the US still needs diesel for its commercial transport/18 wheeler infrastructure.

Since price and demand is ruled by diesel (still) gasoline is an unavoidable byproduct of even the most well-engineered distilling/modifying process of crude oil. Sure, the excess gasoline might be able to be modified further but at what cost?

It seems that for diesel-heads, the environmental argument is now a false one (other than better per mile emissions) since using more diesel will produce more gasoline, which will pollute more no matter what.

I therefore do not feel switching to a gasoline vehicle, with today's market, makes any difference to the environment.

Subtle, no?

TM

Arguably, wouldn't that mean that, due to the economic effects, switching from diesel actually improves things (by decreasing distillate demand and therefore gasoline supply), and then switching to an efficient PZEV gasoline vehicle would improve things more (by decreasing gasoline supply further, while minimizing the environmental impact of the gasoline usage)?

Of course, that works right up until the ratio of gasoline demand/supply exceeds the diesel one.

Tin Man said:

Not really true: https://dieselhpr.com
There are others being developed.

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To be fair to Jon, I don't think NexBTL diesels are available on the East coast at this time. It's become common in California and the fuel certainly has a dramatic effect on emissions for the positive, whereas CARB has banned the sale of 100% concentrations of conventional transesterified biodiesel because of an increase in NOx emissions.

As always, there is no free lunch. And as technology marches on and the electric grid gets cleaner and more infrastructure is put into place, electric vehicles do have a smaller impact on air quality than the cleanest hybrids and diesels. The only remaining downside is the convenience factor that internal combustion offers is better than electric along with the mining of raw materials for batteries. But even that's debatable on if it's superior to the extraction and processes required for crude-oil based fuels. That is a more complex argument, total vehicle lifetime impact on environment, including extraction of natural resources and the pollution those create along with what comes out of the tailpipe or local electrical generation.

For me, I'll hang onto my diesels and see what develops as the convenience factor is too difficult to give up. That and I'm a cheap-ass and can keep TDIs running indefinitely without too much trouble. Electric keeps making compelling cases for daily driver duties, but hard to give up the convenience factor if you like to take the occasional long road trip.

Tin Man said:

Since ULSD was required of North American producers, it has become marketable internationally and the US is a net exporter of diesel. Europe has even heavier demand for diesel and in its production exports its excess gasoline to the East Coast of North America. The price of gasoline has dropped compared to the higher demand of diesel. Yes, the US still needs diesel for its commercial transport/18 wheeler infrastructure.

Since price and demand is ruled by diesel (still) gasoline is an unavoidable byproduct of even the most well-engineered distilling/modifying process of crude oil. Sure, the excess gasoline might be able to be modified further but at what cost?

It seems that for diesel-heads, the environmental argument is now a false one (other than better per mile emissions) since using more diesel will produce more gasoline, which will pollute more no matter what.

I therefore do not feel switching to a gasoline vehicle, with today's market, makes any difference to the environment.

Subtle, no?

TM

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Gasoline is not a by-product of diesel production. They are both end products from refining of crude oil. The percentage of gasoline or distillate fuels varies depending on the source of the crude. The ratio of gasoline to distillate fuels can be and is altered depending on which fuel is selling at a higher price on a worldwide trading basis. Distillate fuels, since they are longer chain hydrocarbons, can be further refined, or cracked, into a higher percentage of gasoline and other marketable products. The only real by-product from a barrel of crude is coal-tar, which is basically the last remaining gunk that can't be further refined. It is also a marketable product with many outlets. There are two products that we see and use everyday, asphalt pavement and roofing shingles.

kjclow said:

Gasoline is not a by-product of diesel production. They are both end products from refining of crude oil. The percentage of gasoline or distillate fuels varies depending on the source of the crude. The ratio of gasoline to distillate fuels can be and is altered depending on which fuel is selling at a higher price on a worldwide trading basis. Distillate fuels, since they are longer chain hydrocarbons, can be further refined, or cracked, into a higher percentage of gasoline and other marketable products. The only real by-product from a barrel of crude is coal-tar, which is basically the last remaining gunk that can't be further refined. It is also a marketable product with many outlets. There are two products that we see and use everyday, asphalt pavement and roofing shingles.

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Yeah, all correct.....35 years in the oil business and I have never heard that gasoline is a byproduct of diesel fuel. Also, if your refinery has a delayed coker unit, the bottoms can be refined (converted) into gas oil and petroleum coke.

Gasoline was dumped into the environment when kerosene was first created to burn in lamps long ago.

If you think its economical to just make diesel and there is no gasoline created, I'd like to hear about it.

TM

bhtooefr said:

Arguably, wouldn't that mean that, due to the economic effects, switching from diesel actually improves things (by decreasing distillate demand and therefore gasoline supply), and then switching to an efficient PZEV gasoline vehicle would improve things more (by decreasing gasoline supply further, while minimizing the environmental impact of the gasoline usage)?

Of course, that works right up until the ratio of gasoline demand/supply exceeds the diesel one.

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That's what it seems like, although some would say new diesel tech is less polluting and should also be applied to gasoline vehicles such as particle traps (VW mentioned it).

Interesting.

TM

Note that particulate filters are far less necessary on port-injected engines (I wouldn't say unnecessary, but less necessary) - the particulate issues that are causing so much panic are really the result of direct injection engines, especially turbocharged ones.

Lug_Nut said:

So I'm buying a used Volt. Yeah it has just over 25 miles of plug-in battery range. That's fine for the work commute and about 1/2 my annual miles. Yeah it won't get 45 mpg when the on-board gen turns on to hold battery charge at the remaining reserve, but it won't be 25 mpg either.

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I wouldn't be too concerned over those figures. It's not even warm yet and I'm up to 42 on the battery and I've yet to drop below 40mpg on the ICE.

aja8888 said:

Yeah, all correct.....35 years in the oil business and I have never heard that gasoline is a byproduct of diesel fuel. Also, if your refinery has a delayed coker unit, the bottoms can be refined (converted) into gas oil and petroleum coke.

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When they first started distilling petroleum, the desired product was kerosene. Gasoline was considered a byproduct and just dumped out into rivers or burned. Diesel vehicles, gasoline vehicles, and electric vehicles came later. Being thrifty, petroleum companies wanted to find a money making use for the rest of the barrel. Tuning for more gasoline was developed later. The heavy tar is used in bituminous asphalt pavement, often with other additives like polymers or ground up crumb rubber from worn out tires. Source is the various text books that I used in my Civil Engineering major and continuing education courses since.

bhtooefr said:

Arguably, wouldn't that mean that, due to the economic effects, switching from diesel actually improves things (by decreasing distillate demand and therefore gasoline supply), and then switching to an efficient PZEV gasoline vehicle would improve things more (by decreasing gasoline supply further, while minimizing the environmental impact of the gasoline usage)?

Of course, that works right up until the ratio of gasoline demand/supply exceeds the diesel one.

Click to expand...

I think we have to look at a holistic return on investment and current light duty diesel technology gives you a better result when you want a larger vehicle that gives you the lowest environmental footprint (see GREET model) under load (drivability+performance). We are looking at something like a mid-size SUV. Go smaller to a mid-size sedan or less, then a gasoline hybrid can be considered for a decent environmental return on investment.

EVs fall in the category of diesels in the sense of high efficiency under load (torque+) but to be suitable for what an American likes in the highway, an SUV, we need to wait for the battery technology to catch up so can make an electrical SUV with a few hundred miles of range that more or less the middle class can afford to buy.

For city driving EVs are excellent overall in my view if you are ok with either the Nissan Leaf, the Fiat electrical, the Bolt, the Model 3 and so forth.

Lug_Nut said:

I figure TDIClub should be second to know (after Mrs.):
I'm buying a Volt and selling my TDI.

Here's why:

Well to wheels emissions reductions from using high percentages of biodiesel sourced from post-consumer waste is not possible with recent / current diesel offerings.

Emission controls developed to mitigate petroleum diesel's measured emissions have caused a near parity in fuel use rate and power production with petroleum gasoline. Diesel fuel economy has diminished, gasoline power has climbed.

Cost per BTU for petroleum diesel and gasoline are near par.

Purchase price premium for the diesel option has a long break even timeline.

I'm no longer travelling 40k+ miles/yr. for business, with personal miles on top of those. I'm have been at about 10k miles total per year.
My work for the past 10 years has been just 10 miles from home and I anticipate that to remain constant until my retirement.

My municipal (non-profit, town owned) electric is 75% from non-fossil sources.

My off-peak time-of-use electric rate is 6.73c/kWh (1.2 energy, 5.53 distribution).

So I'm buying a used Volt. Yeah it has just over 25 miles of plug-in battery range. That's fine for the work commute and about 1/2 my annual miles. Yeah it won't get 45 mpg when the on-board gen turns on to hold battery charge at the remaining reserve, but it won't be 25 mpg either.

Don't get all giddy that I'm finally going away. I'm still here, even if with a mere biodiesel sipping IDI lawn tractor.

Click to expand...

The Volt is the most fun car I have ever driven. I just bought a 2018 Volt a few weeks ago and already have over 2300 miles on it. So far 1600 electric miles and the 700 fossil miles were roadtrips and occasionally running it for breakin.

My decision to get the Volt was based primarily on my current job, I run a renewable energy powerplant and can charge for free everyday at work. I have a home charger I only use on weekends. I certainly have the only Volt powered primarily off waste landfill methane, charged at the source with no distribution losses. For everyone who complains about EV's moving the pollution from the tailpipe to some far off coal power plant, suck it. Not this EV.

I am seeing between 42-71 EV miles per charge, largely dependent on temperature and speed. Running the heat murders my range. Running the AC has a small, but noticeable effect. My commute is extremely hilly and stop and go traffic, 7 miles each way. I was using 10-15 gallons of gas or diesel in my other cars (a toyota echo or my jetta TDI) prior to the Volt. A long day of highway travel in traffic (averaging 25-40mph) got me just over 70 miles before the battery was flat.

My volt had a $37k sticker price, and after incentives, deals, and a fair bit of playing the dealership against another dealer, I got the car for $27k. I still have to claim the $7500 tax credit at the end of the year to really make the car an absolute steal.

Charging with Compu_85's ELR (a gen1 volt)


VeedubTDI's Fiat 500E visiting/charging

Powered by unicorn farts.

john.jackson9213 said:

Tell us about the Volt you purchased. What year, how many miles, and what are used Volts selling for.

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I selected a 2014 (gen 1), 40,800 miles, nearly $15k.
I had seen a few others listed from $8k and up, but older and over 100k miles. I'm not comfortable with batteries at that use amount. I do have cell phones and laptops with diminished life.
The dealer at which this car was located had a selection of new gen II 2018's as well. I figured I'd just pop in, test drive the cheap used one to see if it'd fit my desires, then the more expensive new gen ones if the used one wasn't suited.

A few days in and I have 98.9 miles and an indicated 22.3 kWh consumed from the battery. The watt meter shows a few more than that were fed from the house, but I knew there'd be some loss in/through the charger.
Guesstimated range when I got it showed 39 miles on a full charge. Seems close enough.
I haven't put a full charge back in yet. There's not enough time from off-peak start at 11 pm to my departure at 5 ish at the 8 amp rate of 110 (using the extension cord from the former 750W frostheater). With a heavier gauge cord I could go 12 amp. I've also discovered that the 120VAC J1772 cordset I have is relatively easily converted ro 120/240 so I'll be performing that hack.
No gasoline engine use since my pre-purchase test drive on Sunday.

compu_85 said:

Our off-peak electric rate is about $0.03/kWh, so the savings come quickly!

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Is that electricity production only? Is there a distribution charge also priced per kWh associated with that?

Out in Ohio, Sparkie the Volt has almost 438,000 miles on the original battery.

El Dobro said:

Out in Ohio, Sparkie the Volt has almost 438,000 miles on the original battery.

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11,000 discharge cycles at 40 miles per charge? I'll wager those miles are predominantly on the gasoline powered inverter/generator.
I suppose I should have stated my concern was the number of discharge cycles on the 100k listings prompting me to be more inclined to a newer, lower miles, and therefore probably fewer cycles one that I did choose.

You can see all the stats here.
https://www.voltstats.net/

The Volt is a great powertrain concept. It will show any open-minded driver how much of daily driving fits into the first 40 miles of every day. We drive a 2013 Volt about half the year, and basically never go onto gas. In winter the guess-o-meter is about 25 and summer it's 40. In winter we plug in during the day at home but in summer we don't even plug in every night. I always drive with the shifter in L for max regen and I beat the range prediction.

The car itself is annoying as heck - WTH is with the incessant honking? - but that is a personal thing. The drivetrain concept is great and someone will do a better job executing it than Chevy has.