TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
04 Passat Oil analysis

Analysis by Predictive Maintenance Service, Ulrichsville, OH.

The first analysis was at 50973 miles on the car and 11241 miles on the oil. Previous owner had it maintained at the dealership with documents showing the correct oil p/n. I did not sample the oil interval after that. It was 10K on Elf Excillium DID 5w40. This was considered a flush. The second analysis of Elf oil was done at 69784 miles with 9779 miles on the oil.

Iron 170 70
Chromium 5 2
Lead 11 2
Copper 8 4
Tin 0 0
Aluminum 14 9
Nickel 8 3
Silver 0 0
Silicon 7 4
Boron 53 55
Sodium 15 10
Potassium 9 5
Magnesium 24 20
Calcium 1867 1700
Phosphorus 905 797
Zinc 913 909
Molybdenum 0 2
Fuel A A
Water % vol <0.1 <0.1
Glycol N N
Visc 100C 13.0 12.6
BN 2.78 5.19
Soot 0.7 0.4
Oxidation 15.00 12.00
Nitration 12.00 10.00


The 170 Fe count and 2.78 BN was disturbing. However, the return to reasonable numbers was calming.
 

GMARK

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Back from Iraq!
TDI
2004 Jetta GL Reflex Silver 5 speed. Ventectomy, coolant migration mod, Hella Comets, FK air ducts.
Ah,
Now that's more better! ;) :) :D

G
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Previous owner had it maintained at the dealership with documents showing the correct oil p/n.
sadly, even though the p/n is correct on the dealer receipts, unless i saw certified video footage of the dealer wrench pouring 50501 in - i don't trust it.

it is nice that simply using a good 50501 oil for successive 10,000 mile OCIs brought the wear numbers out of the stratosphere. i personally would have shortened the OCI immediately following the 170ppm Fe UOA - but your method is working and IMHO that's very cool.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Not sure if I understand - What was the oil brand and type of the first sample when it tested for 170 ppm Fe. I have seenother UOA's were the count was very high and we know for sure the oils were 505.01.

I think the reduction of soot by nearly 50% has got allot to do with this improvement.
Its the one factor I see often with the better UOA's using VW oils.
 
Last edited:

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Georgeseq of AVLube suggested the possibility that the first analysis indicated that a "clipboard oil change" had been done. Or an accumulation of deposits in the bottom of the pan. The oil should have been the Castrol 505.01 oil if the previous owner's dealer used what was stated on the work orders.

As SUNRG said, without actually seeing what was done, we'll never know for sure. I can only go forward from here with my own maintenance.

As for the soot, well, the car obviously is using fuel from different sources than under the previous owner (1000 miles away from here). During the second sample interval the car travelled 7916 miles on a long distance trip from OH to WA to CA and back. Fuel from many sources. Locally it gets a diet of B20.
 

Berniem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Location
Mansfield Pa.
TDI
2004 BEW-Jetta-My son 03ALH
UOA samples

Which lab gives the best reports & what is the cost for such? I thought a UOA might be good to determine continued use of my oil (amsoil HDD 3000) with a DG bypass filter. Thanks & keep up the great work!
 

phaser

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta PD - 490k
Total Miles 130134
Miles on oil 10319 / changed
Elf 507 LLX

Elf 506.01 / Elf 507.00

Iron 30 / 29
Chromium 1 / 0
Lead 0 / 0
Copper 4 / 4
Tin 0 / 0
Aluminum 8 / 10
Nickel 0 / 0
Silver 3 / 0

Silicon 3 / 1
Boron 99 / 16
Sodium 65 / 33
Magnesium 336 / 66
Calcium 3259 / 2868
Barium 0 / 0
Phosphorus 1239 / 928
Zinc 1472 / 1162
Molybendum 0 / 0
Titanium 0 / 0
Vanadium 0 / 0
Potassium 0 / 0

Fuel <1% / <1%
VIS @ 40c N/A / N/A
VIS @ 100c 9.6 / 11.49
Water 0 / 0
Soot .6 / .5
Coolant No / No

Additional tests:

TBN 6.86 / 3.4
F-soot .60 / .54
 

phaser

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta PD - 490k
TornadoRed said:
Why is sodium still so high?
I don't know, but it is coming down. Coolant level is stable and have not added any since the egr cooler was changed out back in March. This is the second oil change since then.

What should I have expected for sodium on this second UOA?

Oil Analyzers user's guide suggests ingested dirt as a possible source. Could this be an air filter issue?

Any ideas I ought to consider?
 

GMARK

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Back from Iraq!
TDI
2004 Jetta GL Reflex Silver 5 speed. Ventectomy, coolant migration mod, Hella Comets, FK air ducts.
phaser said:
I don't know, but it is coming down. Coolant level is stable and have not added any since the egr cooler was changed out back in March. This is the second oil change since then.

What should I have expected for sodium on this second UOA?

Oil Analyzers user's guide suggests ingested dirt as a possible source. Could this be an air filter issue?

Any ideas I ought to consider?
It might simply be a component of this oil's formulation. Potassium is zero, so I think coolant can be ruled out. I would expect that sodium number to be at least half of what it is, but I also recently had a "spike" in the sodium which was 4 times higher than previously seen. It was much lower on the following UOA. Since silicon is also low, air filtration looks to be fine.

G
 

cbass94

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, 2011 JSW
GMARK said:
It might simply be a component of this oil's formulation. Potassium is zero, so I think coolant can be ruled out. I would expect that sodium number to be at least half of what it is, but I also recently had a "spike" in the sodium which was 4 times higher than previously seen. It was much lower on the following UOA. Since silicon is also low, air filtration looks to be fine.

G
I was in the same boat with 507.00 except my Sodium was 63 (or somewhere around there). Potassium on mine was also zero and silicon was also low on mine. Others have posted high Na numbers too with no K.
 

Low_Velocity

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Location
Old Pueblo/Tucson
TDI
Jetta 06 Reflex Silver W/bunwarmer
30,000 miles on 506.01

Just got the results on my third analysis of the 506.01 oil I am using. I was told it might not be a good oil to use well after I started using it. The reason given is that I live in the desert southwest & it probably would not hold up to the high temps being a 0-30 oil. I remember seeing the inlet air temp at 137 degrees F while crossing the desert at high noon. So it can get hot here.

I don't think the analysis is too bad, any comments other than the high silica? I did change the air filter.

Justin

 

dhdenney

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2012 Audi A3 TDI Ibis white
Low_Velocity said:
Just got the results on my third analysis of the 506.01 oil I am using. I was told it might not be a good oil to use well after I started using it. The reason given is that I live in the desert southwest & it probably would not hold up to the high temps being a 0-30 oil. I remember seeing the inlet air temp at 137 degrees F while crossing the desert at high noon. So it can get hot here.

I don't think the analysis is too bad, any comments other than the high silica? I did change the air filter.

Justin
Copper seems high, but I think this was expected with the 506.01. Have you opted for a different oil?
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
phaser - you are doing very well and you only need to keep it going.

Low vel - I think you are OK but 506.01 is a mileage oil. I would consider the new chemistry 507. As you see above phaser did very well with the switch to 507. I think you stand to see a grater improvement. Mayve not the first run but after two. Living in the desert and staying in the VAG oils you may benefit from the latest 505.01 tech. My mileage is very good with 507.
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
Yes, go ahead and change your air filter. It's cheap insurance. Your silicon is 10, not terrible, and went down so it's probably not the filter, but I'd still change it anyway to rule out a potential leak.

Numbers aren't terrible for a young engine. I'd ditch TXT if I were you and go to Motul Specific 100% synthetic 505.01 or a VW 507.00 spec if you're comfortable with it.

Where do you get your fuel? That would be the low-hanging fruit to solve your soot levels.
 
Last edited:

fitzski

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Location
Ottawa
TDI
Uh... hmm... Well, none...
For any that care...

Vehicle: 2004 Jetta-PD
Mileage at time of sample: 123,555 km (76,773 mi)
Mileage on oil sample: 16,147 km (10,033 mi)
Analysis lab: CAT (Toromont)
Oil: Elf Excellium DID 505.01

Results:
Fe: 40 (wear rate 3.99)
Cr: 1
Pb: 3
Cu: 3
Sn: 1
Al: 5

Ni: 1
Ag: 0
Si: 4
Na: 11

K: 3
Zn: 936
Mg: 22
P: 1029

TBN: 7
Soot: 25
Sulf: 22
Oxid: 19
Nitr: 12

Soot is now being reported per "Unsubtracted FT-IR method ASTM E2412"... which doesn't mean much to me... Anyone?

Fe rate is a bit high, and higher than any previous UOA on this car, though not at a level that I'm worried about. P is higher by a wide margin than I've seen on my other DID UOA's.

I've still got enough DID for another change, so I'll be sticking with it for now. No complaints though; I've been pleased with it.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
You cant ask for much better - very good - 1 out of the last 3 posted. IF IRC that 25 soot is like less than .1%
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
fitzski said:
Results:
Fe: 40 (wear rate 3.99)
(snip)
Fe rate is a bit high, and higher than any previous UOA on this car, though not at a level that I'm worried about. P is higher by a wide margin than I've seen on my other DID UOA's.
40 ppm per 10k miles is extremely average -- it means you don't have to shorten the OCI, but also that you probably don't want to extend it.
 

tommyt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Location
Manchester, NH
TDI
2003 white Jetta TDI 5 spd M, 9
My latest:

I went a bit over, almost 11K on this one after a 1900 mile trip to Fort Wayne (thus the comment on the analysis). Although no comment was made, Magnesium shot up, and I am wondering about it. Tin is also higher.

I think I did everything correctly, taking the sample in the middle of the change into perfectly clean sampling container.

I was using Rotella T on last time, switched to German Castrol 0-30 on this run. Comments welcomed!
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
i agree with the lab - good UOA. Fe wear rate the last interval was 4.0 over 9500 miles - Fe wear rate this interval over 10800 miles was 3.9. what oil do you have in it now?
 

tommyt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Location
Manchester, NH
TDI
2003 white Jetta TDI 5 spd M, 9
Sunrg -
I used German Castrol 0-30 again and will be interested to see next test.

Actually, the way I read results, it says Iron was 42 this time (10,800 mi) and 38 last time (9,500 mi) which seems to about track with mileage difference. Still wondering what the big increase in Magnesium means.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
tommyt said:
Sunrg -
I used German Castrol 0-30 again and will be interested to see next test.

Actually, the way I read results, it says Iron was 42 this time (10,800 mi) and 38 last time (9,500 mi) which seems to about track with mileage difference. Still wondering what the big increase in Magnesium means.
yes. the Fe wear rate is expressed in ppm of Fe wear per 1000 miles driven. so...

42 (42 ppm Fe) divided by 10.8 (10,800 miles) = an Fe wear rate of 3.9
38 divided by 9.5 = an Fe wear rate of 4.0

therefore, during the last run of GC your engine was wearing very slightly less than during the previous run of rotella.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Both UOA's are near identical with the slight edge gong to the 9.5k run.
Look at all the numbers - all - The first UOA shows 0 tin.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Windjam

you should be - 11 ppm - at 10k then you run a 10k OCI and have 13 ppm. who told you to run a 10k OCI after a 11 ppm. If I were you I would change the oil at 5k and test the next at 5k. IF you test this one at 5k it will be bad and you need not spend money to find out what is apparent. Did you follow the forum break in.
 

zanzabar

Vendor
Joined
Oct 18, 2002
Location
Petaluma, CA
TDI
2004 Jetta BEW 5spd (dual duty track car and daily driver beater)
mparker326 said:
Your engine is still breaking in. Wear metals will be higher until it is fully broken in. I would sample again at 40K.
Agreed.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Windjammer said:
After looking at some of these uoa's, I'm concerned with my fe @ 129. Anyone think I should sample @ 5k on this oil?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1993086&postcount=388
if it were my TDI - i'd do a very short cleansing OCI to bring the inherited contaminant concentration down. while the wear is most likely just break-in related and nothing to be concerned about, because wear metal concentration has became so elevated, inherited contaminants are IMHO without question negatively effecting the performance of the new oil. one very short OCI would IMHO significantly positively effect future oil performance.

if you're wondering just how short of an OCI, if it were my TDI and i just received an identical lab report, i personally would change the oil today. cheers!
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Exactly -- and if at 5k we see a decrease we will know you are falling back in line. You can always work back out to a 10k OCI.
 
Top