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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old February 23rd, 2005, 23:38   #76
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

pretty similar. A CR- pump for the HDI is around £600 list at the dealer. Unlikely that it could damage cam or belt in failure, but it's common for them to shed particles whilst in their death throes which can mean four injectors at £250 each...
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Old February 24th, 2005, 12:54   #77
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

IIRC the PD must use a belt because of the momentary rise in tension applied to the belt when the injector plungers are pushed down by the cam lobes. The belt is designed to stretch in a controlled manner to account for this. Anyone have more info on this feature? I've misplaced my link.
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Old February 24th, 2005, 14:42   #78
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

As long as you replace the belt every 100,000 miles the belt will NEVER fail. I don't understand why you are so focused on what "Could" happen verses what "Will" happen, what will happen is you will replace your belt at the specified interval and have 0 failures.

The belt during its entire life will result in no sprocket wear, no worn guides and minimal time and cost to maintain.

Fact chains DO NOT always give warning. My fathers Benz gave no warning of impending doom and destroyed a $7,000 engine in the process. If a belt fails sure it damages the valves but that is usually the result of the belt being pushed beyond its recomended limits OR improper installation. If you think a belt is difficult to change try changing out all the components of a chain drive system...

Any motor with a chain is a throw away meaning its not meant to go much beyond 300,000 miles without major servicing.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 14:54   #79
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Very good jddaigle an engineering reason a chain or a gear drive might not be a good idea for a PD. Are there any cars or the touareg with out the belt PD combo? I suppose you could compensate for the positive connection that gears would give you by making the shape of the PD lobe different. Maybe the softening effect that a belt would give is the best for the unit injectors. We don't have a VW engineer here to ask and if we did he might not tell us. A lot more interesting than "why go backwards" or "you only have to change the belt every 100k". Yes DBW I have seen belts fail before the service interval. A small not noticed cam seal leak is all it would take. Some body I new with a suzuki swift GT had this happen to him luckily it was a non interference motor. I would guesstamate a good set of gears would last a 1000k Dan
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Old February 24th, 2005, 23:22   #80
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

V10 is PD and gear drive, is it not? Maybe the've got some kind of sprung hub in the cam pulley, anybody know?

Did you guys in the US get the old Ford V6 gasser with the fibre-rimmed cam drive gear that shed it's teeth? Terrible things, they were. Noisy as heck too if you replaced it with a sold steel gear...
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Old March 10th, 2005, 07:09   #81
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

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Old March 10th, 2005, 07:28   #82
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa


thanks to nortones2 for sharing this info
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Old March 10th, 2005, 13:50   #83
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

just thought i'd copy this information here since it's really just a continuation of the 504 / 507 discussion...

The slides below were created just two days ago. Laurent will be importing ELF SOLARIS LLX 5W30 (504.00 / 507.00) to North America <u>as soon as it is available</u> and he projects April 2005 (yes - next month!).

This will be the first time that I know of that a VW Oil Spec will be available in North America at the same time it becomes available in Europe!

The RNT testing 504 / 507 oils undergo is identical to the very demanding 506.01 testing - but as dieseldorf has already revealed - 504 / 507 adds Diesel Particulate Filter compatibility and it consolidates the VW oil specifications.

It is important to note that while FE (fuel economy) is a characteristic of the 506.00 / 506.01 oils - 504.00 / 507.00 is not considered a Fuel Economy oil. 507 will likely provide increased fuel economy when compared to 505 oils but, 506.01 ensures the same protection as 507 with better fuel economy and no DPF compatibility.

I guess something had to be compromised when creating a do-it-all VW specification. The FE issue is probably why the V10 and R5 TDIs are still required to use 506.01 - e.g. VW does not want fuel economy estimates to drop in vehicles equipped with these larger engines.

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Old March 30th, 2005, 03:16   #84
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

but still nobody has given me a good solid engineering reason why it is bad idea
Generally speaking, a 2-valve OHV diesel could have some of the benefits you've outlined previously; however, what you are failing to see is that VW engineers have chosen pumpe-duese injection technology. Its main benefit is a shortened injection interval and higher pressures over a distributer pumped or common-railed system, if I understand correctly. Since the distance from cam lobe to PD plunger is so short, there is very little mechanical lash. Moreover, diesel fuel is a COMPRESSIBLE fluid. That means that over a fuel tube length of more than a few inches, it will exhibit the hydraulic compression-wave effect (a compression wave travels up and down the length, and the mass flow of fuel is concordantly slowed because you have to wait for the compression wave to travel. Addtionally, the wave spreads out the duration of the injection window in a manner related by the Navier-Stokes equation, dependent on temperature, viscosity, fuel makeup and additives, shear-forces and other factors.) This is one of the inherent design limitation of the VE pumped design. It is why VW engineers chose to not simply increase the injection pressures of the VE pump. It would have had a longer injection duration, and this would have complicated timing and reduced parameter flexibility for meeting emisions and fuel economy goals!

Recall that the Tdi's are injected rather late (retarded timing) to limit NOx production. Simply advancing the timing into the optimal range will accomplish a slight increase in power and fuel economy (if power not used all the time) in the VE design--(while NOx will go up.) However, there is a limit to this, as the hydraulic effect means that the injection duration will have a fixed width unless you upgrade nozzles. This is the primary reason why nozzle upgrades are the preffered first upgrade at tdiclub!

The engineers are trying to balance NOx limiting strategies with power and efficiency. If they were to try to activate a PD nozzle by rocker, in turn activated by pushrod, in turn activated by cam lobe, there would be more mechanical lash in addition to the hydraulic effect. The net result would be an injection interval spread out MORE (and more variable(!)) than the current PD design. It would probably be WORSE than the VE design. Purely speculating, (since I don't have a supercomputer to solve the Navier-Stokes for this), I'd guess that the arrival time distribution would be gaussian or skewed gaussian, since there are ~16 differnt molecules in standard D2.

I am quite confident that if VW engineers were given carte-blanche to design a clean-sheet Tdi motor, they would ABSOLUTELY retain an overhead cam. Engineers aren't boneheads, you know. They have reasons for what they do.

Your ideas about 2-valve OHV design would certainly be fine for actuating valves but at increased parts cost. There's a reason no one is doing OHC. The next wave may be peizo-electric actuated direct injectors. Common rail also has room to grow and develop. The engineers still have lots of play in required parameters. Pumpe-duese opened up a new window of parameter 'play space' for the engineers. That is why VE has been abandoned. They'd run out of parameter 'play space' with that design. No way to meet future NOx emmissions goals and hit the other goals concurrently.

That's my 2 Wheatbacks.

Alrighty, back to 504/507 topic: Can't wait for them to get this deployed in NA It will simplify things nicely!

PS: I think you should read the FAQ if you haven't in a while. It lays out the theory pretty well.

Edit: added post-script. Caveat: I'm no engineer--I'm a chemist, but I appreciate the complexity of the fluid dynamics involved.
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Old March 30th, 2005, 11:11   #85
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Thanks nicklockard sounds reasonable to me. I agree pushrods would never work to operate the unit injectors that's why I said use fuel lines and I never took into account the affect the larger volume of fuel down stream of the plunger would have, good point. Although a OHV would work great on a VE motor but that's only academic now with PD. I work with electronics and pulses and oscillations all have to taken into account. For me it has always been about the engineering and not to prove somebody else is wrong. I drive my wife nuts with my ramblings on engineering and she wants me to talk about feelings. Now If you could convince me 505.01 is not a VW conspiracy. Dan
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Old March 30th, 2005, 15:51   #86
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I drive my wife nuts with my ramblings on engineering and she wants me to talk about feelings.

I feel that VW engineers felt good about the new 505.01 specif..er...'feeling.'

Okay, enough of my silliness. 505.01 is just a very good oil for its intended application. Recall that Tier II bin5 Euro standards are approaching for them. VW needs every little trick up their sleeves to meet new emissions mandates and fuel economy goals. That is what is driving 505.01 and 506.01, in addition to the extreme lubrication requirements.

I 'feel' it's a Euro and CARB state conspiracy!
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Old March 30th, 2005, 16:18   #87
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Yes the way we do motor oil in the US could use some improvement but I sure don't want to go the European way. God forbid chevy oil in a ford it will blow up. Oils that don't damage after treatment make sence. More often than not a quality oil will work well many different engines if the viscosity is right. The European way is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Old April 6th, 2005, 17:00   #88
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

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Old April 6th, 2005, 22:26   #89
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Default Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

just to make it aaaaaa little bit more....

A slippery job
Tips on engine oil

Engine oil is an essential lubricant for a car. But it also performs other functions, such as cooling, protecting, sealing, cleaning and transmitting forces. The tips set out here will show how you as a motorist can help your engine oil carry out its numerous tasks and so extend the life of your engine. And that will benefit the environment too.

Oil level

If the oil level is too low the engine may be damaged due to overheating of the oil and lack of lubrication.
Aftermarket products promising to eliminate the need for oil to run the engine are ineffective. They are bound to damage your engine.
If the oil level is too high (overfilled) the engine will exhibit excessive friction loss (churning), resulting in high fuel consumption, loss of power and possibly also engine damage. Furthermore, the engine will burn too much oil, and so pollute the environment.

Checking the oil level

The engine oil level is checked using a dipstick. The dipstick always shows two marks between which the oil level should be indicated. The distance between the top and bottom marks roughly corresponds to around one litre of oil. The oil level should be checked every time you refuel.

To check the oil, park the vehicle on a flat surface, switch off the engine and wait a few minutes for the oil to collect in the sump.
Withdraw the dipstick fully and wipe it off at the bottom. Then re-insert it all the way in. Pull it out again and read off the oil level.
The oil level is at its optimum if it is close to the top mark (Maximum).
Never let the oil level fall below the bottom mark (Minimum). If the oil level is too low, top it up, then check again.
Be sure to close the filler cap properly, to prevent oil splashing out into the engine compartment.
And by the way: too much oil is bad as well, because if the surplus oil is drawn into the crankcase breather it will be emitted through the exhaust to the open air. On vehicles fitted with catalytic converters, the oil may combust in the catalytic converter and damage it.

Topping up oil

All engines consume oil; some more than others. Increased oil consumption may be due to the engine design and/or the lubricant quality. It may also result from a poor quality of oil (see below).

The same oil as is already in the engine should be used for topping up.
The best solution is to carry in your boot a spare bottle of oil with a screw cap and a level indicator on the side. That way you will be sure your engine is using the right oil and you can use the level indicator to measure the amount of oil you pour in precisely.
Mixing different products may lead to increased oil consumption and possibly engine damage if an unsuitable oil is used. Mixing oil may also cause problems when making product liability claims.

Oil pressure

If the oil pressure warning lamp comes on and remains lit while driving, switch off the engine immediately. Check the oil level and top up as necessary (see above).
You should in any case take the vehicle to a dealer to make sure the loss of oil is not due to a technical fault.
If the warning lamp lights up at idle and goes out when you accelerate, the oil is too fluid and should be changed as soon as possible.

Oil quality

If low-quality oil is used, the results may be higher fuel consumption, increased wear symptoms, build-up of deposits and - ultimately - engine damage (see above). With the right lubricant a car's engine runs more smoothly, particularly when undertaking frequent cold starts at low ambient temperatures.

So-called synthetic single-grade oils are more fluid and so lubricate faster, reaching all the friction points in a cold engine within a very short space of time. They also protect the catalytic converter and save fuel. As a result the vehicle produces less pollution.
Synthetic high-performance oil is usually more expensive than a mineral oil, but the engine and the environment will benefit from the additional investment.
You should in any case make sure the product is approved for use in your vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer. Consult your dealer, or refer to your Owner's Manual.
Oils for diesel engines are not usually approved for use in petrol engines.

Oil change intervals

Despite major leaps forward in its development, engine oil is nevertheless subject to a degree of wear, and must still be changed after a certain period of time. High temperatures lead to the formation of ageing products. In diesel engines, in particular, the oil may thicken due to sooting. The additives protecting against dirt deposits, wear and corrosion gradually lose their effectiveness, and cannot be fully restored by topping up. Consequently, the vehicle manufacturers stipulate regular engine oil changes.

Since July 1999 some Volkswagen vehicles have qualified for extended service intervals (ESI). They are only possible in conjunction with the use of appropriate fully synthetic long-life engine oils. Depending on the engine and model variant, service - and thus oil change - intervals can be extended to as much as 30,000 kilometres or a maximum of two years for petrol engines and 50,000 kilometres or a maximum of two years for some diesel engines. The PR number "QG1" on the vehicle data sticker indicates whether a vehicle qualifies for extended service intervals.
Volkswagen has designated 58 engine oils as conforming to VW standard 503.00 for petrol engines and VW standard 506.00 for diesel engines and as qualifying for extended service intervals.
A further 22 oils are approved to VW standard 503.01 for turbo petrol engines.
According to standard 506.01, 10 lubricants are approved for engines with pump/nozzle assemblies.
All ESI engines can also be run on conventional oils. However, the service interval display must then be reprogrammed and the oil changed after a maximum of 15,000 kilometres or one year. The same shorter interval applies if the driver has topped up more than half a litre of conventional oil when unable to obtain a suitable long-life lubricant.
Use of a high-grade engine oil is especially important when a vehicle is subject to a lengthy oil change interval and taking into consideration the conditions under which it is run (urban traffic, short trips, driving at full throttle). It is also advisable to change the oil earlier than stipulated when the vehicle is run under extreme conditions, such as after long trips on dusty roads or if you run a number of short trips during the cold season, when the engine seldom or never reaches its operating temperature.
The oil filter must also be replaced at every oil change.
The oil change should best be carried out by a dealership workshop. They will use an oil conforming to the manufacturers' specification and replace the dirtied oil filter. They will also be able to drain and store the used oil in the correct manner and arrange for it to be collected by an authorized disposal company.
Caution: Do-it-yourself oil changing demands technical know-how and skill. Errors may result in engine damage, or lead to oil being introduced in an uncontrolled manner into the soil, causing serious environmental damage. The perpetrators of such actions may be subject to severe penalties. Furthermore, if you change the oil yourself you will usually have to ensure proper disposal of the used oil and the filter by taking it to an authorized used oil collection point. That is often inconvenient, time-consuming and costly.

Oil standard and its especially release

Standard 503.00 and 506.00

Agip Agip 7005
Antar Antar Innovia Premium
Aral Aral SuperTronic 2
Avia Aviasynth PD 0W-30 -longlife-
Castrol Castrol Longlife
Cepsa Cepsa Star Top Synt
Elf Elf Evolution
Esso Esso Ultron (Long Drain)
Fina Fina First
Fuchs Fuchs TITAN Supersyn SL PCX
Galp energia Galp Formula 503/506
Gulf Gulf Formula XT
Igol Igol Process 503/506
Kuwait Petroleum Q8 Formula Excel ED
Liqui Moly Liqui Moly Synthoil Longtime Plus
Meguin Ultra Performance Long Distance
Mobil Mobil SHC Formula V
Mobil Mobil TE
Motul Motul Specific 50300 - 50600
OMV OMV full syn extra
Pentosin Pento Super Performance
Repsol Repsol Elite ECO-XXI
Repsol Repsol Elite Turbo Life 506.01
Shell Shell Helix Ultra AD
SRS Schmierstoff Vertrieb Wintershall ViVA 1 SLV
Techno Tecar-Motorenöl 50300 und 50600
Texaco Havoline Synthetic
Texaco Havoline Synthetic
Total Total Activa 9000
Total Total Quartz 9000
Valvoline Valvoline SynPower XL
Würth Triathlon Endurance
Zeller+Gmelin Divinol Syntholight

SAE Viscosity Grade: SAE 0W-30
VW Standard(s): 50300/50600

Standard 503.00, 506.00 and 506.01

Addinol Addinol Mega light MV039
Agip Agip 7007
Aral Aral SuperTronic LongLife II
BP BP Visco 7000 LongLife II
Castrol Castrol Longlife 2 Top Up
Castrol Castrol SLX LongLife II
Elf Elf Evolution CRV
Esso Esso Universal LD
Fuchs Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL Longlife Plus
Kuwait Petroleum Q8 Formula Excel EDX
Mobil Mobil SHC Formula LD
Motul Motul Specific 506 01 506 00 503 00
Shell Shell Helix Ultra X
Texaco Havoline Synthetic 506.01
VAPS Vapsoil 506 01
Veedol Veedol Syntron LongLife II

SAE Viscosity Grade: SAE 0W-30
VW Standard(s): 50300/50600/50601

Standard 503.01

Addinol Extra light MV 038
Agip Agip 7006
Aral Aral SuperTronic
BP BP Visco 7000 Special
Castrol Bot SLX/A
Castrol Castrol Formula SLX
ESSO Esso Ultron (Fuel Economy)
Fuchs Supersyn SL
Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL
Fuchs Labo RC
Ginouves York 748
Huiles Labo Labo RC
Kuwait Petroleum Q8 Formula Special
Liqui Moly Liqui Moly Synthoil Longtime
Meguin megol Motorenöl Super Leicht Lauf Multisynth
Mobil Mobil 1
Motul Motul 6100 LL-01
Oel-Brack Quaker State Synquest
Panolin Panolin Racing Synth DC
Pentosin Pentospeed 0W30VS
Shell Shell Helix Ultra
Teboil Teboil Diamond Plus
Texaco Havoline Synthetic DS
Unil Opal Opaljet 32 S
Valvoline Valvoline Synpower MXL
VAPS Vapsoil 50301
VAPS Vapsoil SYN 030
Veedol Veedol Syntron

SAE Viscosity Grade: SAE 0W-40 (for Agip, Aral, Mobil), SAE 0W-30 (for others)
VW Standard(s): 50301
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Old April 12th, 2005, 05:46   #90
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Fuel Economy: 43/42/38
Default Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

I have seen people go back and forth on this whole oil thing and I have a suggestion. I bought my 99.5 golf with 30k a year ago and have used Royal Purple 15w 40 formulated for diesel since I got it and not only have I not had any motor issues with it but also when I did my injector nozzles over the weekend I decided to scope out the manifold because I see all the clogged ones on the forums after 15-20k miles. Well my car now has 88k on it and has never been cleaned and other than a reletively thin film of oil on the walls I have virtually no clogging. If that doesnt win you over than price point is great. You can get 5 gallon ordered through most local auto stores for less than a U.S bill.
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