No Mod w/o DPF Replacement?!

N2UADTDI · Aug 24, 2017

Our 2009 Jetta is scheduled to be at the dealer early next week for the fix. The DPF was replaced under warranty with a 2 piece system early on when the HPFP failed and caused a DPF code. What will the dealer do? Will they replace the DPF because it's a 2009 and that's what they are told to do? Or will they say no new DPF? The tailpipe is clean and no CEL. Car has 200k miles on it now.

GIDDY_UP_GO · Aug 25, 2017

I honestly think that we should start making phone calls to the lead counsel and let them know what is going on! I think VW is shafting us on this and the court should hear about it! VW should be made to fix the cars irregardless of what code is being showed on the VCDS.

Granted if someone has completely removed their emissions equipment I could see them making you replace it before the mod, but if the car is throwing a code and the code needs to be fixed and cleared before the mod, then VW should pay for it!

Kevinski4 · Aug 25, 2017

GIDDY_UP_GO said:
I honestly think that we should start making phone calls to the lead counsel and let them know what is going on! I think VW is shafting us on this and the court should hear about it! VW should be made to fix the cars irregardless of what code is being showed on the VCDS.

Granted if someone has completely removed their emissions equipment I could see them making you replace it before the mod, but if the car is throwing a code and the code needs to be fixed and cleared before the mod, then VW should pay for it!

Are you trolling or serious? If serious, would you sell someone a car with known issues and then offer to warranty the parts that you know are bad when the repair is going to cost you a couple thousand?

meerschm · Aug 25, 2017

N2UADTDI said:
Our 2009 Jetta is scheduled to be at the dealer early next week for the fix. The DPF was replaced under warranty with a 2 piece system early on when the HPFP failed and caused a DPF code. What will the dealer do? Will they replace the DPF because it's a 2009 and that's what they are told to do? Or will they say no new DPF? The tailpipe is clean and no CEL. Car has 200k miles on it now.

good question.

might be hard to get a straight answer before hand. I think they do not even know until they get the car in and run the process.

but if the DPF is clean, you should be good to go anyway.

they will give you 4 years on the car. which is not a nice as a new DPF and sensors.

SkeeterMark · Aug 25, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
Are you trolling or serious? If serious, would you sell someone a car with known issues and then offer to warranty the parts that you know are bad when the repair is going to cost you a couple thousand?

I would absolutely expect them to warranty the whole existing system, and replace anything defective prior to the mod.
Your anecdote is not applicable. VW is the party that sold a vehicle with known issues, and now they expect customers to pay for the repairs to their faulty system.
I can't find the link right now, but there was an article where a VW employee stated that the cheat was at least a partial cause to emissions component failures, specifically the DPF, and that 23O6 was supposed to reduce the issue (save them warranty work/$) in addition to masking the cheat itself.

Of course they are/were financially motivated to not make repairs to the DPF under warranty, but I think they should take responsibility for any issues and pretty much extend original warranty on any of the components involved up to the time of modification, and then for the extended period. It doesn't seem unreasonable for them to take care of the small number of people in this position.

I'm sure there are many, many of us who are on the verge of a DPF failure, so they will still be replacing them on a lot of the modded vehicles, minus the very low mileage ones, under the extended warranty anyway. Seems like it would really make sense to include correcting any issues that are not from intentional vandalism and make it all work the way it should have in the first place.

Mcdmarkd · Aug 26, 2017

Yeap Same boat here. 2010 Jetta. giving $3200 est to replace the dpf and Egr because of the 401 code.

N2UADTDI · Aug 26, 2017

meerschm said:
good question.

might be hard to get a straight answer before hand. I think they do not even know until they get the car in and run the process.

but if the DPF is clean, you should be good to go anyway.

they will give you 4 years on the car. which is not a nice as a new DPF and sensors.

So what if I got under there and welded the 2 pieces together? It would not look like the original but they would have to replace the DPF. Or would this be considered an unauthorized modification?

meerschm · Aug 27, 2017

N2UADTDI said:
So what if I got under there and welded the 2 pieces together? It would not look like the original but they would have to replace the DPF. Or would this be considered an unauthorized modification?

They are not stupid.

the VW service system will also have a record of previous service done to your car.

Kevinski4 · Aug 27, 2017

SkeeterMark said:
I would absolutely expect them to warranty the whole existing system, and replace anything defective prior to the mod.
Your anecdote is not applicable. VW is the party that sold a vehicle with known issues, and now they expect customers to pay for the repairs to their faulty system.
I can't find the link right now, but there was an article where a VW employee stated that the cheat was at least a partial cause to emissions component failures, specifically the DPF, and that 23O6 was supposed to reduce the issue (save them warranty work/$) in addition to masking the cheat itself.

Of course they are/were financially motivated to not make repairs to the DPF under warranty, but I think they should take responsibility for any issues and pretty much extend original warranty on any of the components involved up to the time of modification, and then for the extended period. It doesn't seem unreasonable for them to take care of the small number of people in this position.

I'm sure there are many, many of us who are on the verge of a DPF failure, so they will still be replacing them on a lot of the modded vehicles, minus the very low mileage ones, under the extended warranty anyway. Seems like it would really make sense to include correcting any issues that are not from intentional vandalism and make it all work the way it should have in the first place.

You have that backwards. Their system is not "faulty" from a reliability standpoint. Not as it relates to "cheating" anyway. Cheating on NOX (and NOX only) means underfueling which means less soot, fewer regens, and better MPG. Fewer regens mean fewer thermal cycles of the DPF which it the root cause behind the cracking issue. Cars with the "fix" applied will have shorter DPF life than those without.

SkeeterMark · Aug 28, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
You have that backwards. Their system is not "faulty" from a reliability standpoint. Not as it relates to "cheating" anyway. Cheating on NOX (and NOX only) means underfueling which means less soot, fewer regens, and better MPG. Fewer regens mean fewer thermal cycles of the DPF which it the root cause behind the cracking issue. Cars with the "fix" applied will have shorter DPF life than those without.

Exactly what data/study shows that more thermal cycles is the root cause?
So ok, the cheat provided less regens....and look at all these poor folks that have cracked DPF's. It's just as likely that prolonged periods between regens could be the culprit, or some other side affect of the system.

But let's say you are correct. Then we might guess that DPFs would be cracking at maybe 20 or 30k miles if the cars were regenerating as often as they should be. Seems like it would really make it a weak link if it were subject to the amount of regens it should actually be going through.

So if that's true, then they must have designed the part to work with the cheat. Surely they would have had to expect them to have a serviceable life expectancy or they would have been replacing DPFs on every car.

Following that line of thinking, we might conclude it's underdesigned and should be replaced with one made to work in the new conditions. I'm not saying it does or doesn't crack because of more/less heat cycles because personally I don't know, and know of no study defining a cause, but either the DPF won't handle increased regens, or it was adversely affected by the cheat. Either way, they should replace them if they are bad, and probably will be replacing a ton of them under the new warranty for those that don't have the problem yet.

meerschm · Aug 28, 2017

The fix description book says that some checks run in the normal course of things will be less sensitive than before the fix.

my guess on this is that this means that the car after the fix is applied will be slower to throw a code for EGR presssure due to soot leaking past the DPF, and clogging up the low pressure EGR tube.

I was more than a little surprised by this, having through that they would make it more likely to catch failed DPFs.

Have not seen direct test results, but I expect that even a cracked DPF catches and converts quite a bit of the soot which otherwise would be passed out the tailpipe.

the cracking of DPFs seems common, but is far from universal.

93celicaconv · Aug 28, 2017

Why would VW want to catch more failed DPFs after the fix, now that VW has a 4 year or more warranty on them after the fix? It makes sense to me this change (if this is what the change is) was designed to catch less of the failed DPFs, so there would be fewer VW would be on the hook for to replace.

drsven · Aug 28, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
You have that backwards. Their system is not "faulty" from a reliability standpoint. Not as it relates to "cheating" anyway. Cheating on NOX (and NOX only) means underfueling which means less soot, fewer regens, and better MPG. Fewer regens mean fewer thermal cycles of the DPF which it the root cause behind the cracking issue. Cars with the "fix" applied will have shorter DPF life than those without.

My understanding, going back to the 23O6 update - This triggered the regen cycle more frequently reducing the overall peak temperature of the DPF. Pre-23O6 flash triggered less cycles, but the peak temperature levels were much higher.

Let's face it, if you're still running the original DPF, it was probably subjected to both programs which may have contributed to component failure.

VW should have included replacing the DPF for all vehices as necessary while applying the fix.

740GLE · Aug 28, 2017

meerschm said:
They are not stupid.

the VW service system will also have a record of previous service done to your car.

And what if you had it replaced at one of the countless indy shops that many people use instead of dealer.

To the OP, sounds like you accepted the fate to your wallet handed to you by the dealer a lot better than I.

IMO no MIL, no replacement needed. What if these DTCs were stored after your local indy shop replaced the DPF and EGR? BTW the soot would still be on the tail pipes.

But alas this is typical VW corporate vs Dealer gobbledygook.

740GLE · Aug 28, 2017

93celicaconv said:
Why would VW want to catch more failed DPFs after the fix, now that VW has a 4 year or more warranty on them after the fix? It makes sense to me this change (if this is what the change is) was designed to catch less of the failed DPFs, so there would be fewer VW would be on the hook for to replace.

Cause the EPA really wants more people running around with cracked DPF, VW pocketbook 2, EPA 1,000,000

Im surprised by it being laxed as well

skycrane · Aug 28, 2017

for me, i have gone 4 days so far with the " fix" without the P0401 code poping up. Before that i would be lucky to go a day before it poped up. I highly doubt they replaced the DPF in the car, and did the 3 other open recalls in the day they had my car.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481109

here is my thread with the pic of the dealers invoice for the "fix". But be warned... its a HUGE pic

Kevinski4 · Aug 28, 2017

SkeeterMark said:
Exactly what data/study shows that more thermal cycles is the root cause?
So ok, the cheat provided less regens....and look at all these poor folks that have cracked DPF's. It's just as likely that prolonged periods between regens could be the culprit, or some other side affect of the system.

But let's say you are correct. Then we might guess that DPFs would be cracking at maybe 20 or 30k miles if the cars were regenerating as often as they should be. Seems like it would really make it a weak link if it were subject to the amount of regens it should actually be going through.

So if that's true, then they must have designed the part to work with the cheat. Surely they would have had to expect them to have a serviceable life expectancy or they would have been replacing DPFs on every car.

Following that line of thinking, we might conclude it's underdesigned and should be replaced with one made to work in the new conditions. I'm not saying it does or doesn't crack because of more/less heat cycles because personally I don't know, and know of no study defining a cause, but either the DPF won't handle increased regens, or it was adversely affected by the cheat. Either way, they should replace them if they are bad, and probably will be replacing a ton of them under the new warranty for those that don't have the problem yet.

Something tells me your day job is not in the engineering field of diesel engine development & calibration, working for a large engine manufacturer.... I do have some SAE books on diesel engine emissions treatment I could loan you if you wanted to study up though.

SkeeterMark · Aug 28, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
Something tells me your day job is not in the engineering field of diesel engine development & calibration, working for a large engine manufacturer.... I do have some SAE books on diesel engine emissions treatment I could loan you if you wanted to study up though.

Something tells me you don't have very good business sense for being a vendor on the TDI site and having such a condescending attitude toward the members, aka customers.

As was pointed out, more frequent regens at a lower temperature would theoretically be easier on the DPF, if in fact that is the cause of the cracking. If it is being caused by high temperature cycling, they designed a system which was not capable of withstanding the temperatures they put it in service to meet.

Your books on emissions treatment cannot possibly address manufacturing defects or poor mechanical design which produced a product subject to failure under "normal" operating conditions. You cannot rule out this as the reason, or a contributing factor.

While I may agree with your assessment, there is absolutely no hard evidence that is the cause. Show me studies on this particular DPF and where it is shown to crack at a certain temperature, or during a heat cycle....the very thing it was designed to do. If it is simply heat cycles, it's a failure by design, and should by all counts be warrantied up to the time of the modification.

As I also previously stated, it's not the fault of the customers that VW took 2 years to come up with the fix, during which time many of them may have suffered the damage to the DPF. While normal maintenance of your vehicle is expected/required, dealing with any part of the emissions system used for cheating emissions and customers should not be the owner's responsibility.

drsven · Aug 28, 2017

Good points. I think there has always been a question as to whether or not the DPF hardware was engineered properly to withstand the soot load regeneration thresholds written in the initial vehicle software. Some had stated that at least part of the last pre-Dieselgate software update (among other things) was to help extend the DPF life.

SkeeterMark said:
Something tells me you don't have very good business sense for being a vendor on the TDI site and having such a condescending attitude toward the members, aka customers.

As was pointed out, more frequent regens at a lower temperature would theoretically be easier on the DPF, if in fact that is the cause of the cracking. If it is being caused by high temperature cycling, they designed a system which was not capable of withstanding the temperatures they put it in service to meet.

Your books on emissions treatment cannot possibly address manufacturing defects or poor mechanical design which produced a product subject to failure under "normal" operating conditions. You cannot rule out this as the reason, or a contributing factor.

While I may agree with your assessment, there is absolutely no hard evidence that is the cause. Show me studies on this particular DPF and where it is shown to crack at a certain temperature, or during a heat cycle....the very thing it was designed to do. If it is simply heat cycles, it's a failure by design, and should by all counts be warrantied up to the time of the modification.

As I also previously stated, it's not the fault of the customers that VW took 2 years to come up with the fix, during which time many of them may have suffered the damage to the DPF. While normal maintenance of your vehicle is expected/required, dealing with any part of the emissions system used for cheating emissions and customers should not be the owner's responsibility.

Kevinski4 · Aug 29, 2017

SkeeterMark said:
Something tells me you don't have very good business sense for being a vendor on the TDI site and having such a condescending attitude toward the members, aka customers.
As was pointed out, more frequent regens at a lower temperature would theoretically be easier on the DPF, if in fact that is the cause of the cracking. If it is being caused by high temperature cycling, they designed a system which was not capable of withstanding the temperatures they put it in service to meet.
Your books on emissions treatment cannot possibly address manufacturing defects or poor mechanical design which produced a product subject to failure under "normal" operating conditions. You cannot rule out this as the reason, or a contributing factor.
While I may agree with your assessment, there is absolutely no hard evidence that is the cause. Show me studies on this particular DPF and where it is shown to crack at a certain temperature, or during a heat cycle....the very thing it was designed to do. If it is simply heat cycles, it's a failure by design, and should by all counts be warrantied up to the time of the modification.
As I also previously stated, it's not the fault of the customers that VW took 2 years to come up with the fix, during which time many of them may have suffered the damage to the DPF. While normal maintenance of your vehicle is expected/required, dealing with any part of the emissions system used for cheating emissions and customers should not be the owner's responsibility.

Good grief. I gave you the answers and you told me you don't believe it even though you say you don't understand it. Some of us in the industry have been working with DPFs for 20+ years. And yes there are SAE books out there entirely on DPFs, their design, function, and standards. Has anyone other than internal VW done studies on VW's DPFs? No. Why would they? Anyone in the industry just has to glance at it's shape and goes "oh, that's going to crack". I've heard it many times from my coworkers. If you heat and cool something enough times it will fail. Certain shapes are more susceptible to that. Your engine goes through one thermal cycle each time you start it and shut it off. Your DPF goes through thermal cycles of varying degree each time you press and release the throttle pedal. The fact that the filter typically lasts 2-3 times longer than what the EPA requires the manufacturer warranty should be impressive, especially when it's expanding and contracting with temperature changes different amounts in different directions. My point is, any effect "dieselgate" had on the life of VW's DPFs, is negligible at best.

phantom1260 · Sep 13, 2017

In the Red said:
A little. Have a case number and appointment is Friday. He did not say they will eat total cost of dpf but I can push for that( his words) and they will do something. If they back out at last minute they will be stuck with car. I ll change to buyback
and leave car at dealer.

So what was the outcome here? Did you have to pay for the DPF?

I'm going in on Sept 19 and I have the P0401 code. Not sure what to expect.

Especially since I have not heard of anyone in Canada go in for the fix yet. I don't know if they will handle the DPF issue any differently.

In the Red · Sep 13, 2017

phantom1260 said:
So what was the outcome here? Did you have to pay for the DPF?

I'm going in on Sept 19 and I have the P0401 code. Not sure what to expect.

Especially since I have not heard of anyone in Canada go in for the fix yet. I don't know if they will handle the DPF issue any differently.

Modification was done a week and a half ago. Dont think they replaced dpf. No mention of it when I picked up car. Sticker under hood shows they did not replace it( dpf box was npt checked). But....today on a highway trip light came on. Scanned car and got po401 AND po2002. Also got a call from Dealer on Friday asking for me to come by at my convenience to replace on of the sticker or something lile that. Am going to call today to make appointment to have it checked. As far as I am concerned they are on the hook at this point. Would not have done the fix if I knew I needed $2000 worth of emmissions parts right after they performed recall

740GLE · Sep 14, 2017

In the Red said:
Modification was done a week and a half ago. Dont think they replaced dpf. No mention of it when I picked up car. Sticker under hood shows they did not replace it( dpf box was npt checked). But....today on a highway trip light came on. Scanned car and got po401 AND po2002. Also got a call from Dealer on Friday asking for me to come by at my convenience to replace on of the sticker or something lile that. Am going to call today to make appointment to have it checked. As far as I am concerned they are on the hook at this point. Would not have done the fix if I knew I needed $2000 worth of emmissions parts right after they performed recall

Dealer isn't on the hook, VWoA is on the hook to reimburse the dealer for the warranty work.

My pure random thoughts.

I'm sure VW calculated the risk of X% of failed DPF/emissions junk that will need to be replaced with this new warranty, the question is is that X% worth more than what they would be shelling out if VW bought the car back and crushed it? My guess is heck yeah.

Even if VW pays half of what the buy back cost value on warranty work for these fixed cars, VW is still coming out a head. VW prob assumes each car probably has 4-5K of potential warranty work and they'd still be in the green vs shelling out $10-$19K for what could have been a crushed car.

No Mod w/o DPF Replacement?!

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