Fuel additives

TornadoRed · Mar 11, 2010

pleopard said:
If you do choose to use an additive, make sure it at least claims to be ULSD compatible on the packaging. I recently picked up some Stanadyne PF from a dealer in PA and discovered it was old stock and not their reformulated stuff for 2007+ engines. If you get Stanadyne PF, make sure it is NOT Part # 29409 (at least this was the number in the 16oz bottle). I believe all new part numbers begin with a 3, but the safest bet is to look for the ULSD label. It's a good thing I discovered this before putting it in my tank. You'd think by now all the old stock would be depleted.

The tiny amount of sulfur in that old container would have made no difference at all. Even several tankfuls of LSD, ~500 ppm of sulfur, would probably not cause any damage, so how could a few ounces do so?

Tin Man · Mar 11, 2010

Shore its compatible - its 99% ULSD already!

Anything to sell it!

TM

Cool Breeze · Mar 12, 2010

Tin Man said:
Lets see, at 40 mpg over 300,000 miles that's about $150? Seems a bit low for that many miles. I would wager it cost you more.

I would also wager that the fuel pumps were not as frequent or as bad from standard diesel fuel as your statement implied.

It would be clear that we should all use additive if the big rig fleet owners routinely used additive, which apparently they don't. The big rigs go for a couple of million miles I hear. Also, when ULSD came out, it was clearly stated that prior to that, quality of diesel fuel was not as high overall/average.

Sorry, I'm still on my first fuel pump at 173,000 miles for the CDI. My 2002 NB TDI was sold with its original fuel pump at 156,000 miles. Anecdotal yes. Strategy: use brand name fuel for better additives. Don't trust aftermarket additives for their ability to mix with different quality of fuel and different additives already in the fuel. Don't trust aftermarket additives that have no data nor offer any hint as to their ingredients, and their sales pitches are not precise enough to know if the benefits are infinitesimal.

Cheers.

TM

I'll make it easy and do the math for you.

80oz bottle PS Diesel Kleen w/Cetane boost: ~$13.45 and treats 250 gallons. So using Tornado's numbers of 300k miles @ 40 mpg = 7,500 gallons of fuel.

7,500 gallons of fuel = 30 bottles of 80oz PS which would cost ~$403.

Now I'll take it a step further. Additional savings depends on whether or not you chose to use normal or premium diesel. In my little world non-premium diesel runs on avg 15 cents/gal cheaper (it's currently .23 cents/gal cheaper). So using Tornado's numbers of 7,500 gallons burned. I would save ~$1,125 using non-premium diesel alone and IF I supplemented that with PS my savings would drop to $722. Wow..I'd actually still come out ahead. Now I don't know what the cost of B2/B5 is because only ~3-4 places sell it and they're 30 minute drive out of the way.

To increase his savings Tornado could buy higher concentrate PS which treats 7,500 gallons for ~$163.

My point is if you're getting the same MPG's the actual cost is minimial. No harm no foul.

Tin Man · Mar 12, 2010

Cool Breeze said:
I'll make it easy and do the math for you.

80oz bottle PS Diesel Kleen w/Cetane boost: ~$13.45 and treats 250 gallons. So using Tornado's numbers of 300k miles @ 40 mpg = 7,500 gallons of fuel.

7,500 gallons of fuel = 30 bottles of 80oz PS which would cost ~$403.

Now I'll take it a step further. Additional savings depends on whether or not you chose to use normal or premium diesel. In my little world non-premium diesel runs on avg 15 cents/gal cheaper (it's currently .23 cents/gal cheaper). So using Tornado's numbers of 7,500 gallons burned. I would save ~$1,125 using non-premium diesel alone and IF I supplemented that with PS my savings would drop to $722. Wow..I'd actually still come out ahead. Now I don't know what the cost of B2/B5 is because only ~3-4 places sell it and they're 30 minute drive out of the way.

To increase his savings Tornado could buy higher concentrate PS which treats 7,500 gallons for ~$163.

My point is if you're getting the same MPG's the actual cost is minimial. No harm no foul.

Would be nice, if the additives actually worked. Just don't know, and the additive makers won't give us the data.

TM

Red Rado Tdi · Mar 12, 2010

Any one use fppf fuel power? I was thinking of getting some, can't find any near me and was going to order online, (any suggestions for where). I picked up diesel kleen but wanted to go with the other stuff unless somoe suggests something better. I was also going to install the cat 2 micron fuel filter, I understand that I need the kit, is it hard to install?
Thanks

Bob_Fout · Mar 12, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
Any one use fppf fuel power? I was thinking of getting some, can't find any near me and was going to order online, (any suggestions for where). I picked up diesel kleen but wanted to go with the other stuff unless somoe suggests something better. I was also going to install the cat 2 micron fuel filter, I understand that I need the kit, is it hard to install?
Thanks

I've been using that and Stanadyne this winter. Bought mine from amazon.

DoubleLifeOfVeronique · Mar 12, 2010

I've used Stanadyne this winter and my car ran much smoother & quiter. I stopped using it and the car runs louder. I don't mean to say my 09 Jetta is loud at all, I'm just saying it's a lot quiter with the Stanadyne, then plain diesel. I don't know if I will use it again till next winter, but it did make a difference in how my car ran. I'm not for additives, or against them, I'm just telling you what I experienced

Bob_Fout · Mar 12, 2010

DoubleLifeOfVeronique said:
I've used Stanadyne this winter and my car ran much smoother & quiter. I stopped using it and the car runs louder. I don't mean to say my 09 Jetta is loud at all, I'm just saying it's a lot quiter with the Stanadyne, then plain diesel. I don't know if I will use it again till next winter, but it did make a difference in how my car ran. I'm not for additives, or against them, I'm just telling you what I experienced

Same here, I was very impressed with cold starts (0*F and up) and general running with Stanadyne, and with FPPF. Much better than Power Service's additive offerings.

Red Rado Tdi · Mar 12, 2010

so I could get fppf from amazon? that diesel kleen that I got I guess is crap? How about the cat 2 filter? Any suggestions? Is it worth it / hard to install?

ProfBooty · Mar 13, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
I was also going to install the cat 2 micron fuel filter, I understand that I need the kit, is it hard to install?
Thanks

No, very straight-forward. Pretty much the same as changing out the OE fuel filter.

Bob_Fout · Mar 13, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
so I could get fppf from amazon? that diesel kleen that I got I guess is crap? How about the cat 2 filter? Any suggestions? Is it worth it / hard to install?

This is the link for FPPF Total power, for winter/year round use. You can get FPPF Fuel power at almost any truck stop. I've had good results from Howes products, also from almost any fuel station along the Interstate or truck stop.
http://www.amazon.com/Total-Injector-Cleaner-Detergant-Cetane/dp/B002OFOHOY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1268479657&sr=8-1

I would not say Power Service additives are crap.

Ton · Mar 13, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
Any one use fppf fuel power? I was thinking of getting some, can't find any near me and was going to order online, (any suggestions for where). I picked up diesel kleen but wanted to go with the other stuff unless somoe suggests something better. I was also going to install the cat 2 micron fuel filter, I understand that I need the kit, is it hard to install?
Thanks

What does fppf stand for?

Bob_Fout · Mar 13, 2010

Ton said:
What does fppf stand for?

It's the company name.

http://www.fppf.com

hgsmith · Mar 13, 2010

I like my Nicktane 1 micron fuel filter. All synthetic fuel filter but if you want to use a cat 2 micron it will fit.

securityguy · Mar 13, 2010

www.opti-lube.com

The OL-XPD is the way to go. I know of no one that's used it that has had anything negative to say about it. I am now on my second gallon and love it...car drives better than it ever did both when new and on PowerService. Well worth the cost IMO.

Red Rado Tdi · Mar 14, 2010

cool thanks I will try some of that stuff out and my fuel filter was replaced 10k ago. when should I be changing it next? Still on the fence about the Cat 2 filter the kit is expensive but so are the oem filters but the cat replace is cheaper.

Bob_Fout · Mar 14, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
cool thanks I will try some of that stuff out and my fuel filter was replaced 10k ago. when should I be changing it next? Still on the fence about the Cat 2 filter the kit is expensive but so are the oem filters but the cat replace is cheaper.

Factory fuel filter interval is every 20K miles.

pgenis · Mar 14, 2010

additives I use and see the results

RalphVa said:
I'm not using an additive in my 2010 TDI until VW tells me which one. I frankly don't believe the lubricity issue. Mercedes was using direct fuel injection in gasoline engines since the 1950s. Gasoline has nil lubricity.

I do believe that there is a problem with wax drop out with ULSD because I experienced this in my 2004 diesel tractor. The engine on it was cutting out after 30 minutes to an hour's use. I emptied the tank and found a couple globs of whitish/yellowish wax near the outlet line from the tank. So, I use an additive in its fuel to protect against this. It seems that the old additive called kerosene is less effective in preventing wax formation in ULSD than it did in the preULSD diesel.

This wax formation is only a problem below about 10 F. My TDI is parked in the garage where it seldom goes below about 40 F. So, I don't need an additive in its tank for wax protection.

I use Seafoam in my carbureted engines. It's great for those. I've heard that it isn't so good in injected engines. Really don't know. It definitely cleans up and keeps carburetors clean on both 4 cycle and 2 cycle gasoline engines.

When I joined the forum back in 2006 I did it, because no one I talked to, knew if using a diesel additive is a good idea. And I talked to a lot of folks in and around DC. So I joined and read for several month - there is a lot of info here. I was ready by the time the car was 1 year old - I began using diesel additives. Power Service game me noticeable increase in power and decrease in fuel consumption. I used 10 onces per full tank (15-16 US gal).

Last year at the Fest, I got AMSoil diesel concentrate. I tried it alone and it gave me no change in power, but a noticeable decrease in fuel consumption. Since AMSoil says I should use its concentrate with the cetane booster (Power Service is that among other things), I now use both at the same time. Each time I fill the tank, I add 3 ounces of AMSoil concentrate and 9 oz of Power Service.

Peter

pgenis · Mar 14, 2010

Power Service too caused diesel to run quiter

DoubleLifeOfVeronique said:
I've used Stanadyne this winter and my car ran much smoother & quiter. I stopped using it and the car runs louder. I don't mean to say my 09 Jetta is loud at all, I'm just saying it's a lot quiter with the Stanadyne, then plain diesel. I don't know if I will use it again till next winter, but it did make a difference in how my car ran. I'm not for additives, or against them, I'm just telling you what I experienced

I see similar results with the Power Service additive in both 2006 Jetta TDI and 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD. Adding AMSoil diesel concentrate also decreases diesel consumption. No noticeable increase in power in Jeep, but a noticeable increase in power in Jetta.

Peter

TornadoRed · Mar 14, 2010

Red Rado Tdi said:
cool thanks I will try some of that stuff out and my fuel filter was replaced 10k ago. when should I be changing it next? Still on the fence about the Cat 2 filter the kit is expensive but so are the oem filters but the cat replace is cheaper.

The CAT filter kit is expensive, but will pay for itself in about 80k miles and you can always transfer it to your next TDI, and the one after that, and so on. So it will save you money in the long run, unless your doctor has given you six months to live.

pgenis · Mar 14, 2010

Thanks! Interesting Facts!

IFRCFI said:
In short, yes.

A couple of good reads:

http://www.enertechlabs.com/Ultra_Low_Sulfur_Diesel_Facts.htm

Note the section on why manufacturers are silent on additives.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=974029

Whatever you use, make sure it is ULSD compatible.

I use Opti-Lube XPD

I found especially interesting the second link to the diesel/additives study. I suspect, I will be looking for the bio-diesel source very soon - as soon as my supply of AMSoil's Diesel Concentrate and Power Service Diesel Kleen is depleted.

Peter

Tin Man · Mar 14, 2010

Originally Posted by IFRCFI
In short, yes.

A couple of good reads:

http://www.enertechlabs.com/Ultra_Lo...esel_Facts.htm

Note the section on why manufacturers are silent on additives.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=974029

Sorry, what BS!

The first link is to a sales site that sells chemicals for all sorts of automotive purposes including windshield washer fluid: no scientific data on their lubricity improver.

The second link is to an ill-conceived "study" using raw ULSD with very high wear scar and no additives from the fuel supplier (this kind of diesel is not obtainable at the retail level) which then goes on to show how aftermarket additives significantly improve the lubricity of this heretofore untreated fuel. It does not describe any benefits of aftermarket additives to fuel already treated by the fuel suppliers.

The study was conducted in the following manner:
-The Research firm obtained a quantity of “untreated” ULSD fuel from a supplier. This fuel was basic ULSD fuel intended for use in diesel engines. However, this sample was acquired PRIOR to any attempt to additize the fuel for the purpose of replacing lost lubricity. In other words, it was a “worst case scenario, very dry diesel fuel” that would likely cause damage to any fuel delivery system. This fuel was tested using the HFRR at the Southwest Research Laboratory. This fuel was determined to have a very high HFRR score of 636 microns, typical of an untreated ULSD fuel. It was determined that this batch of fuel would be utilized as the baseline fuel for testing all of the additives. The baseline fuel HFRR score of 636 would be used as the control sample. All additives tested would be evaluated on their ability to replace lost lubricity to the fuel by comparing their scores to the control sample. Any score under 636 shows improvement to the fuels ability to lubricate the fuel delivery system of a diesel engine.

So, might as well advise the fuel suppliers which additive package to use. As if they don't already know! Trouble is, due to well known variability in base stock/crude oil, different sources of diesel are likely to require different additive packages to have best overall performance.

TM

Tin Man · Mar 14, 2010

TornadoRed said:
It was more, I have records in my spreadsheet, showing when I made online purchases of Primrose. I have also made a few purchases of PS, and a one-time purchase of something else. So I know for a fact that I've spent over $200 and probably more than $225 -- still a tiny amount compared to what some spend on additives.

According to the raw ULSD additive study results, Primrose Power Blend made the lubricity worse! Guess your fuel pump would last even longer had you not used additive at all, according to this data! Add to that the poor showing PS had in this "study" you may have caused more harm than good!

Personally, I am not a gambling man, but my money is obviously not on the additives. I take my chances with whatever odds there are that the fuel pump will fail from allegedly poor lubricity (and not from any other fuel quality or other engineering flaw) and to have to replace it.

Cheers.

TM

TornadoRed · Mar 15, 2010

Tin Man said:
According to the raw ULSD additive study results, Primrose Power Blend made the lubricity worse! Guess your fuel pump would last even longer had you not used additive at all, according to this data! Add to that the poor showing PS had in this "study" you may have caused more harm than good!

The stuff I use is the 405-C PowerMaster Plus -- I have no idea whether my results would be different with a different Primrose product or not.

If lubricity is all one wants, then I agree that B02 is adequate. Most additives, including Primrose, claim other improvements.

20IndigoBlue02 · Mar 15, 2010

GTIDan said:
For me. VW Say's 'don't use um' and I don't but I do purchase my fuel from any of the above companies.

While it really doesn't apply to you, unless you hit the Big Bear Lake area of SoCal, in the past VW has recommended additives primarily for gelling concerns in the winter time. They recommend Stanadyne All-season formula.

Tin Man · Mar 15, 2010

TornadoRed said:
The stuff I use is the 405-C PowerMaster Plus -- I have no idea whether my results would be different with a different Primrose product or not.

If lubricity is all one wants, then I agree that B02 is adequate. Most additives, including Primrose, claim other improvements.

What exactly were the improvements, other than lubricity, that would make your fuel pump last over 300,000 miles?

TM

MacBuckeye · Mar 16, 2010

I haven't seen anyone mention Lucas Fuel Treatment. What scares me (and I'm guessing most of you) is that it says you can use it for both gas and diesel engines. Yikes!

So what exactly is in this stuff that it can treat both gas and diesel???????
"cleans and lubricates fuel system"
"neutralizes low sulfur fuel problems"
"increases power and MPG"
"increases life of pumps and injectors"

I used both PS and Stanadyne. Not sure I notice any differences with or without additives. I might try Optilube when my stash runs out to see if I notice any improvements. Approaching 27K miles and car runs like a champ!

aja8888 · Mar 16, 2010

FWIW, I use good-sourced biodiesel (we are lucky here in Texas) at a rate of 1 quart per tank of D2 for lubricity purposes. In the winter (when we have it) I add 4 ounces of Power Service to the D2 to keep the fuel from gelling.

pleopard · Mar 16, 2010

The MSDS sheet indicates the formulation is entirely different, and I'm not going to mess around with something that's a potentially ash-forming fuel additive. Has anyone given any consideration to what may happen to certain chemical compounds when they hit the catalyst material of our shiny DPFs?

dieselfuel · Mar 17, 2010

pgenis,

I believe bio-diesel is worth the time and effort to seek out a commercial source of it.

I bought two 5 gal. "cans" and fill them up twice a year. I try to time my 1 hr. drive to get the bio, before I do a fuel filter change. Then, I also top off my tank with the B100. Usually, that give me about a mixture of B60-B75 in the tank.

Yes, I think B100 is worth seeking out and using it as a fuel additive. 1/4 - 1/2 gln. per tank (16 gln.) is really all you need.

Good luck,

Fuel additives

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