TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

04PDWagon

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04 Jetta Wagon
Also, what metals are found where in the motor?

What material would be present in the UOA for a worn cam, worn lifters, worn turbo bearing, etc.
 

SUNRG

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04PDWagon said:
I know I've been driving the car a little harder around town lately but 85% of my driving is still highway at 65MPH.
if anything, IMHO you're not driving hard enough. IMHO it's good for your high-performance turbocharged engine, and the spirit of the driver, to periodically enjoy pedal-to-floor accelorating in 2nd and 3rd. shift just as the needle crosses 4k RPM. remember to stay safe and observe all posted speed limits.
What kind of effect would running B30 have on the oil? What should I look for in the UOA that would show any effect from BIO?
IME - good B30 will have no negative effects on the oil. i run B33 almost exclusively. my PD has been fueled with virtually all BioDiesel (B5 to B100) since new.
I'm also considering a Diesel Geek By-pass filter kit. What are your thoughts on that?
in general & IMHO i don't think oil bypass filtration is necessary to enjoy outstanding TDI performance for 400k+. i don't have a bypass filtration system installed and don't plan to.
 

Dimitri16V

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TornadoRed said:
I've had several UOA from Mobil Delvac 5w40, and the moly is always 0 or 1 ppm. 193 ppm in Dmitri's sample doesn't belong unless it was added -- or unless there was a lot of topping-up oil that wasn't Delvac.
I did use LiquiMolly friction reducer. Maybe I did not put enough ..:D
Lab said sodium could be from additive but I think it is contamination, collecting the sample was not exactly neat.

Weather is getting colder so I will switch to ELF 5W-30 LLX. This car accumulates 1,500 miles /wk and traffic can be murderous sometimes around here so when I get the chance it gets floored. Atleast there is no soot in the turbo that way..
 
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highender

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2012 Jetta TDI
SUNRG and others...

here is my first UOA again...

I have a 2002 Jetta with 122,970 miles , have shell rotella 5w-40, and amsoil bypass filter. Lots of other mods. Runs on B100 most of time, but with some additives... Last oil change was 9000 miles ago.


Fe 52
Cr 2
Ni 0
Al 1
Cu 5
Pb 4
Sn 0
Cd 0
Ag 0
Ti 0
V 0
Si 8
Na 6
K 2
Mo 18
Sb 0
Mn 0
B 10
Li 0
Mg 15
Ca 3487
Ba 0
P 1280
Zn 1486


I collected the oil using a not so good method....meaning I did clean the Pela container and let some oil run thru....and then collected the oil from mid level ( not bottom ) of the oil dipstick , after running the already warm engine again. The oil collected was about 1 qt...which I mixed up before pouring into sample container...Not the best method, I agree (it was late at night).

TornadoRed and others say that Fe is high....but what about the other tested molecules/compounds ? What does each one mean ? Why do they test Ca ?

I mean to ask , in general, why do they test the ones that they do, and what do the values indicate ?? Can you explain the values..where it is normal range, high range, etc..? Like a blood test we get at physical checkups...each test will give more information ( like high Cholesterol will tell me to lay off the fried chicken) ....

Assuming that my sample is reasonably representative, how long more should I run the oil before oil change...?



Thanks....
 

TornadoRed

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Dimitri16V said:
I did use LiquiMolly friction reducer. Maybe I did not put enough ..:D
Lab said sodium could be from additive but I think it is contamination, collecting the sample was not exactly neat.
Whatever the source for the sodium, it's not very much.... only typically there's less than 5 ppm.

Looks like if I want to know whether Lubro-Moly MoS2 is any good when blended with Delvac, I'll have to test it myself. Your test was inconclusive.
 

TornadoRed

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highender said:
I mean to ask , in general, why do they test the ones that they do, and what do the values indicate ??
All your questions can be answered here:
http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf

... except for how much longer you can go between oil changes. After you learn what the numbers mean, then you can decide for yourself.

I don't recall exactly what I said before, but 52 ppm of iron after 9000 miles is only slightly elevated. If it was 35 or less, I'd say everything was perfect. Everything else is perfect.
 

whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
TornadoRed said:
All your questions can be answered here:
http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf
thanks for that link. UOA has been a hot topic at work recently and we have the Deere propaganda, but I't nice to see some other information. When I'm sober, I'll read this stuff and see what we can learn.

BTW, last UOA on my Jeta showed 12.something for viscosity and it noted that it was slightly out of range for 5-40 oil. This isn't the first time I have seen a viscosity reading that was near the borderline. Maybe I need to switch to some other oil when I do my next oil change at 60,000 mi.
 

Dimitri16V

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TornadoRed said:
Whatever the source for the sodium, it's not very much.... only typically there's less than 5 ppm.

Looks like if I want to know whether Lubro-Moly MoS2 is any good when blended with Delvac, I'll have to test it myself. Your test was inconclusive.
I will use it again with Elf Solaris and re-test. the way this car is used it won't take long.
 

SUNRG

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Dimitri16V said:
I will use it (LiquiMolly friction reducer) again with Elf Solaris and re-test. the way this car is used it won't take long.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

IMHO this is an exceedingly bad idea that will almost certainly result in downgrading the performance of the $11/liter ELF Solaris LLX.
collecting the sample was not exactly neat
i'm almost afraid to ask - but how did you collect the sample you sent to the lab?
highender said:
I collected the oil using a not so good method....meaning I did clean the Pela container and let some oil run thru....and then collected the oil from mid level ( not bottom ) of the oil dipstick , after running the already warm engine again. The oil collected was about 1 qt...which I mixed up before pouring into sample container...Not the best method, I agree (it was late at night).
IMHO disregard these results as there's a very high likelyhood that they are inaccurate/unrepresentative.
 
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rjr311

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My 507 analysis w/bio

2004 PD PAssat wagon. Dealer put ELF 507 in at 30,000 miles in March 2007. Driving is mostly in town short trips. Use b70+ with occasional 100% D2 use depending if out of supply range. Air filter was changed at 20K.

Sample taken at 40K miles, Used Cat labs. Sample was collected by draining from plug, rinsing bottle few times, filling bottle, spilling bottle partially, allowing more from bottom of oil pan to drip into bottle to fill ( not needed as only 2 oz required but I wanted to have enough if I needed 2nd oil opinion). Not sure if this last step allowed extra metals to drain late or ..

I then sucked all oil from topside as well. Put 507 back in. Plan on checking at 45K this time.

Wear metals
Al 12 Ca 1707 Cr 1 Cu 11 Fe 66 Pb 12 Mg 14 Mo 1 Ni 4 P 614 K 6 Si 7 Na 7 Sn 0 Zn 759

Oil Condition
ST 22 OXI 30 NIT 11 SUL 27 W N A N F N PFC 0 V@100 11.3 TBN 4.0
ST = soot, W=water, A=antifreeze, F=Fuel, PFC=??, but it is '0' :)

I dont think I like these data values but since car is at 40K the iron level could still be normal and inline with "new" engine.

Any thoughts ?
Thank you, robert
 
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SUNRG

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rjr311 said:
2004 PD PAssat wagon...
2.0L 134hp TDI invariably produce more wear metals than 1.9L 100hp TDIs. so, since the oil was in for the 10k from 30-40k ODO (young engine) this is IMHO a good UOA. if it were my TDI - since your oil change procedure was very thorough (drain & extract) i would not worry about sampling again at 45k, i'd sample and change at 50k and use that UOA to begin to determine if future OCIs can safely go beyond 10k. remember to only compare your UOAs with your own and those from other 2.0L 134hp TDIs.
 

wjdell

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12 Pb - Ni 4 - Cu 11 ---- seems high even for a 2.0. Check at 45k good idea. If you show less than half of these numbers then it may indicate your 2.0 OCI needed to be shorter for the break in.
 

Dimitri16V

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SUNRG said:
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

IMHO this is an exceedingly bad idea that will almost certainly result in downgrading the performance of the $11/liter ELF Solaris LLX.
i'm almost afraid to ask - but how did you collect the sample you sent to the lab?
sucked it out from filter housing with turkey baster...
The additive did not affect M-1 why you think it will "downgrade" the 507.00 oil. I don't care about the Fe number. PD engines will produce more Fe than ALH, there is more wear happening uptop than we would desire. It is the nature of the engine. FYI, I had not had the lifter tick with Mobil-1/MOS2 combo for 10K miles. It happened with Motul specific though.
 
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highender

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TornadoRed & SUNRG ....> Thanks for your input.

I think I will change oil in 1000 miles...and then get another sample when changing....and then , go from there.

great info...and thanks for the link...
 

TornadoRed

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highender said:
TornadoRed & SUNRG ....> Thanks for your input.

I think I will change oil in 1000 miles...and then get another sample when changing....and then , go from there.
Nothing in the UOA you posted suggested that you need to switch to a shorter oil change interval. If you do, you'll be draining perfectly good oil. Do you have another vehicle that you can pour it into?
 

rjr311

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wjdell said:
12 Pb - Ni 4 - Cu 11 ---- seems high even for a 2.0. Check at 45k good idea. If you show less than half of these numbers then it may indicate your 2.0 OCI needed to be shorter for the break in.
well, I will do it the right way. I can pick up some bottles from CAT in advance and if I skip the TBN ( the oil test guy says he doesn't put much weight behind the results ) it is only $10.

I know, I know that $10 is 20% of the cost of a oil change ... but _I_ want to know what is going on under the hood where I can't see.

I did not put in a magnetic plug - will do so next time. And would love a bypass filter although my soot number I think is like .1% with conversion.

I saved the oil that I removed last spring and I may have CAT test that just to see what it looked like. ???

thank you for comments. ( that is why I posted )
 
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wjdell

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rjr311 - you may also want to consider Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 507 oil after three LLX . If you are using Elf then price is not a issue. Mobil has proved time and time again then can build a good oil. The 507 is made in Antwerp Belgum and they make some very good products. Its just a suggestion that maybe a BORON MOLY fortified 507 make work better for you in your 2.0. Your soot is good at .2 so I do not see it as the factor.
 

rjr311

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wjdell said:
rjr311 - you may also want to consider Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 507 oil after three LLX . If you are using Elf then price is not a issue. Mobil has proved time and time again then can build a good oil. The 507 is made in Antwerp Belgum and they make some very good products. Its just a suggestion that maybe a BORON MOLY fortified 507 make work better for you in your 2.0. Your soot is good at .2 so I do not see it as the factor.
when I bought the oil, ELF was the only 507 available ..
Due to shipping and travel I ended up w/oil shipped to work and oil I picked up at Impex. So I used the oil @ Impex and saved the shipped oil until this week.
When it is next swap time I will review results from 20K miles of use.
my bio use will be down to 40% or so .
 

SUNRG

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Dimitri16V said:
sucked it out from filter housing with turkey baster...
definitely discard the UOA results
[The additive did not affect M-1 why you think it will "downgrade" the 507.00 oil.
IMHO it did downgrade the M1. your Fe wear rate using this oil is higher - much higher than GMARK's.
I don't care about the Fe number. PD engines will produce more Fe than ALH, there is more wear happening uptop than we would desire. It is the nature of the engine.
maybe during the wear-in process, but after that Fe wear in PDs should be similar to ALH. At least this is what I've seen.
FYI, I had not had the lifter tick with Mobil-1/MOS2 combo for 10K miles. It happened with Motul specific though.
sounds good. but too many variables to tell if this was caused by the M1, the additive or something else. add and remove one variable at a time. repeat. then you begin to establish cause and effect.

cheers!
 

TornadoRed

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Dimitri16V said:
sucked it out from filter housing with turkey baster...
SUNRG said:
definitely discard the UOA results
I don't know if that's such a bad way to draw a sample, if the turkey baster was clean. Oil drawn from the filter housing should be identical to oil drained from the sump.

I'd wager that if you drew three samples, one from the drain plug, one sucked through the dipstick tube, and one sucked up from the filter housing, they would all be very close.
 

SUNRG

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rjr311 said:
Sample was collected by draining from plug, rinsing bottle few times, filling bottle, spilling bottle partially, allowing more from bottom of oil pan to drip into bottle to fill ( not needed as only 2 oz required but I wanted to have enough if I needed 2nd oil opinion). Not sure if this last step allowed extra metals to drain late or ... Any thoughts ?
i just wanted to note that when catching oil during the drain:
  1. pull the plug - immediately after engine shutdown
  2. wait ~2 seconds
  3. then catch a sample directly into the sampling container that comes with the UOA kit
it's that simple and it's easy to be consistent with this proceedure.
 

SUNRG

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TornadoRed said:
I don't know if that's such a bad way to draw a sample, if the turkey baster was clean. Oil drawn from the filter housing should be identical to oil drained from the sump.

I'd wager that if you drew three samples, one from the drain plug, one sucked through the dipstick tube, and one sucked up from the filter housing, they would all be very close.
TR - all I'm going to say is that there's no way i'm endorsing the "turkey baster from the oil filter housing" sampling method :D.
 

TornadoRed

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SUNRG said:
TR - all I'm going to say is that there's no way i'm endorsing the "turkey baster from the oil filter housing" sampling method :D.
Take another look at Dimitri's results... not that bad.

It's a better method that some I've seen, like taking a sample from a previously used Pela extractor.
 

SUNRG

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TR & WJ - you're scaring me.

have you ever seen someone send a full turkey baster to a lab for oil analysis? neither have i. so the first opportunity for inconsistency/contamination is the oil being in two containers (note: all sampling methods labs do endorse employ only the sampling container the lab sends with the UOA kit.)

another problem is i'm not confident oil remnants in the oil filter housing are representative. immediately after shutdown - oil extracted from the middle of the reservior via a measured length of sampling tubing and oil captured mid-stream while draining via the drian plug are lab endorsed as representative - as is oil sampled via a petcock valve while the engine is running.

oil that drips off the outside (dirty side) of a filter into the filter housing, and is then slurped up with a turkey baster and squirted into a UOA sampling container is no where near as reliably representative.

it doesn't matter how the results look - if they're inaccurate / non-representative they are not of value.
 

TornadoRed

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dhdenney said:
What would poultry show up under on a UOA?
Dimitri's UOA showed a slightly high level of sodium, a fairly common chemical found in kitchens.
 

wjdell

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What about the fact my petcock valve has copper tube. I understand the drawing from filter housing may give a high reading - but I do not undestand why you think - clean plastic would effect it. Its high temp plastic just like the plastics used in sampling devices. I feel petcock is the best and thats why I installed mine. Not to mention the ease of use, I open and close a valve. Messing around with some device was not for me. It would require storage, if I need to take a sample while not at my garage. Carry this in the trunk.
 

dhdenney

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TornadoRed said:
Dimitri's UOA showed a slightly high level of sodium, a fairly common chemical found in kitchens.
I wasn't really looking for an answer as I was trying to be Mr. Funnyman but good point nonetheless. Seems to explain the sodium. The salt from the turkey baster!
 
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