IS DSG programming necessary

texsize

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Location
southern california
TDI
2013 jetta DSG.
I have ECU tune (both .5 and 2.0) from Malone but have not bought or performed a DSG flash yet. If I upload the 2.0 tune to the ECU does/will the DSG limit the amount of power I can transfer to the tires?
I spoke with Kerma and they claim that the DSG transmission does not limit the torque transfer. The DSG tune is strictly to make the transmission shift quicker/better.
texsize
 

travis45

Veteran Member
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Dec 25, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
14 Sportwagen, 96 Passat TDI Sedan
That is not the way I understand it. The DSG has a programmed torque limit and will dump power if it reaches that point.

I suggest you speak with a Malone tuner.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
There is certainly a torque limiter in the DSG transmission on all DSG models, be it gas or diesel. Where it's set per model is different, on the EA189 platform it is intrusive in certain scenarios with just an ecu tune. You could have power limited at times, such as mid corner, and because of that we consider it a required tune. You could run a stage 2 without DSG tuning, it's not recommended, and we always send two ECU tunes (one with stock torque) in that case. You could always try it out, just be safe and expect a power cut at some point, although it's fairly hard to test off a dyno. Mark and Keir experienced this on HPA's dyno like six? years ago. HPA was the first to start using DSGs in racing applications, they are local to us and we've taken these developments very seriously. We do custom DSG tuning on big power gas cars as well.

To get around the torque limiter you can falsify the torque output values to the transmission. As a result, the transmission will try to limit slip as it occurs, rather than correctly calculating how much force it needs to apply based off the values it's given. This can result in more heat build up, clutch wear, and potentially warping. That is an unprofessional way to tune a car.
 
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KERMA

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Sep 23, 2001
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here
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99 beetle and 04 jetta

I spoke with Kerma and they claim that the DSG transmission does not limit the torque transfer. The DSG tune is strictly to make the transmission shift quicker/better.
texsize



This is not something anyone at kermatdi would say. I think there is some misunderstanding going on here, or it was heard wrong. There is so much more to the kerma dsg tune than just the optimized shift patterns, but that will likely be what's immediately recognized by the driver. Lots of development time went into achieving a specific feel and it's a lot more than simply bumping the whole maps a flat percentage like you will see elsewhere.

If you have a kerma ecu tune, we consider the dsg tune to be optional, but very desirable and nice to have. Without it, the car will run fine, but sometimes it will shift a bit differently than you would expect. If you have a malone ecu tune I would definitely say that I understand why you would want to avoid that "face plant" experience (as buzzken once put it on these forums). I feel this is a good example of how we sweat the details to the point of obsession, to make the driving experience as rewarding as possible. It took more effort and time to find the solution, but we want to give the customer a choice with regards to the dsg tune, not force them to spend more money.

It's the difference between being able to "kinda tell" that there's a tune, and "OMFG this is awesome"
 

jsrmonster

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Red Lion, PA
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15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Max Torque limiter is typically 410nm (305 ftlb?) in dsg controller and ecu oem limiter is at approx 260ftlb (depending on car & sw ver)so you can easily run a stage1 tune up to 300ftlb w/o burping throttle on oem dsg controller sw. You can see all torque limiter values in vagcom. However most tuners miss the ecu 2D limiter and require the dsg tune too with stg1 to keep it from studdering under loads. You can also edit a certain y axis linearity to spoof reported torque to dsg. No one does this it gives a much better throttle response. Been doing this on vw/MB/and bmw's diesels for years. ;-))
 

travis45

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
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14 Sportwagen, 96 Passat TDI Sedan
Tell me more JSRMONSTER. Is there something more I can fiddle with in VAGCOM over my Malone DSG tune? Does the Malone DSG tune cover the 2D ecu limiter you speak of?
 

jsrmonster

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Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Tell me what your max cylinder pressure is for a hard wot 3rd gear pull (field 0141) and I'll tell what your max hp/ torque is.
;-))
 

Keir@malonetuning.com

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Canada
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none
Editing the ECU to fool the DSG is beyond reckless its just stupid.

A stage 1 tune from us is well over 300 ft/lbs. ( remember the car determines this at the flywheel ) So it's required. This is why we have a stage .5 tune.

No other make has used a temic DSG box like VW has since 2004, so I'm not sure where they play in to this.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
How sharp is the torq limiter cut off?

If you're easing into it will you not notice as much as stomping on it? We by no means track the car, just looking for better passing pick up throttle response.

Flashzilla arrived yesterday for the '15 Passat, and was hoping to just get stage 2 and be done, now second guessing myself.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
How sharp is the torq limiter cut off?

If you're easing into it will you not notice as much as stomping on it? We by no means track the car, just looking for better passing pick up throttle response.

Flashzilla arrived yesterday for the '15 Passat, and was hoping to just get stage 2 and be done, now second guessing myself.
EA288s have different DSG software and don't have as much interference, they also make a bit less torque and a tiny bit more power up top. Shy of track use you shouldn't notice it.

DSG software isn't available for the EA288 jetta/golfs yet as there's a different plug, haven't really had any problems. We have no intention of falsifying data outputs to the transmission, it's easy to do, but it's the wrong approach.
 

yrktreg

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Location
York, PA
TDI
2014 Treg TDi Exec, 2010 JSW TDi DSG
Would scaling the torque to the DSG possibly cause it to slip since it isn't getting a true torque output reading from the ECU?

I know the DSG TCU can compensate when it detects slippage, but this doesn't seem like the best approach to me...

But what do I know :p
 

Macradiators.com

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Nov 2, 2015
Location
Romania
TDI
2.0 CR 360hp
On high power cars they remap the DSG, also increase clamping pressure to 16-17-18 bar from the stock 13bar
Not all do it, but a few i know do.

I will remap dsg also in a few days hoping to deal with 600+Nm on the DQ500.
If this version wont work i will have no choice but to spend 6-700€ for TVS Engineering DSG remap, they personalize the tune, 800Nm torque, LC and so much more.
 

Keir@malonetuning.com

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Joined
May 11, 2016
Location
Canada
TDI
none
Would scaling the torque to the DSG possibly cause it to slip since it isn't getting a true torque output reading from the ECU?

I know the DSG TCU can compensate when it detects slippage, but this doesn't seem like the best approach to me...

But what do I know :p
Yes this is exactly it, yes it will, but its a reactive approach, and with how much torque a diesel makes, its even harder to stop it from slipping when it starts.

And if you overheat the pack, the intermediate plates warp, and then the clutch is ruined. it'll drag, become hard to shift, and eventually will fail.

The stock programming is also garbage in comparison to what you get in a flash. All modes get benefits, S and M mode the most. But after the flash, the transmission should last longer with less wear.
 

BLAQ

New member
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Jul 1, 2019
Location
Colorado Springs
TDI
2015 Golf TDI MK7
EA288s have different DSG software and don't have as much interference, they also make a bit less torque and a tiny bit more power up top. Shy of track use you shouldn't notice it.

DSG software isn't available for the EA288 jetta/golfs yet as there's a different plug, haven't really had any problems. We have no intention of falsifying data outputs to the transmission, it's easy to do, but it's the wrong approach.
Is DSG software available now for the EA288s now from you guys? I have a 2015 Golf TDI with Rawteks stage 2 tune and the ECO delete kit. I also just put on your guy's muffler delete so she's wide open. Talked with a malone dealer up in Denver Colorado and they said I dont need a DSG tune? Hope this is false LOL



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Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
Yes has been available for a couple years, have different tooling for it since the kess units still don't support MQBs, working with dq500s etc too. Welcome to shoot us an email at info@malonetuning.com

ea288 DSG software is a fair bit different and tq limiters are set higher, still livens things up a fair bit though.
 

BLAQ

New member
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Location
Colorado Springs
TDI
2015 Golf TDI MK7
Yes has been available for a couple years, have different tooling for it since the kess units still don't support MQBs, working with dq500s etc too. Welcome to shoot us an email at info@malonetuning.com

ea288 DSG software is a fair bit different and tq limiters are set higher, still livens things up a fair bit though.
Awesome, thinks for the info man I will do that!

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raffshore

Well-known member
Joined
May 29, 2006
On high power cars they remap the DSG, also increase clamping pressure to 16-17-18 bar from the stock 13bar
Not all do it, but a few i know do.

I will remap dsg also in a few days hoping to deal with 600+Nm on the DQ500.
If this version wont work i will have no choice but to spend 6-700€ for TVS Engineering DSG remap, they personalize the tune, 800Nm torque, LC and so much more.
on my car their tune wouldn't even hold 730nm measured on our (your claimed to optimistic dyno) so good luck with that
 
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