INA: TDI product offerings -– billet CCV 1.9/2.0/2.5 TDI FLUIDAMPR & more

robnitro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
Yeah, I know we wish for a heavier damper due to the diesel application though that will not come to fruition.

That being said, call me lazy or w/e though I'm indifferent to that, but I'm favoring a complete solution. My 1Z is already incredibly smooth after the rebuild and I did the upgrade for the point of longevity of the motor. If what I remember from TDIMeister is right, the damper works on first order torsion damping.What we feel in NVH is 2nd and 3rd order forces, thus are generated by the 1st order ones.

I also have a 14 lb flywheel and though it isn't harsh, it's noticeable that I have less mass due to how it idles in gear and NVH. I'm curious how this will affect that operation.

I run a 22lb SMF (g60 w sachs vr6 clutch), little to no gear rattle in N.

I've found in modifying the idle speed, there are ranges in which NVH is much higher, and the rest seems to be a compromise between "types" of vibration (resonation).
Around 1050-1150 it gets rougher. Past that its smooth.
Below 903, I found 882 to be optimal. I've also run 819, 840, 861 which seemed ok but it seems like a trade off. Lower rpm than 882 give a bit more industrial truck like vibration, but cut down on random rattles (2001- 177k on the car). Above 882, theres diminishing returns of smoothness.

If you think of it, a typical 6 cyl diesel truck idles around 600 rpm lets say.
That is a firing frequency of (600rpm)/(60sec/min)=(10rps) x (3 firing per rev)= 30 hz
On our tdi at 900rpm, 900/60=15x2=30 hz.
So, we pretty much have the same power stroke frequency as a cummins i6, in newer cummins it can even be higher rpm (less vibratory). So seeing how smooth our engines are compared to trucks, just speaks volumes about the pendulum mount system isolating NVH from the body!
So it's pretty much
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
Your engine internals are stock, but mine are not. We are running different engine mount setups too due to generational differences. Either way, I don't know if the tolerances for the MK IV were the same as the MK III's, but I had about a 5 gram delta in the mass of each cylinder's pistons and rods. When I balanced everything I ended up with I component off more than 1 g and the total mass of each assembly within 0.5 g of each other. I notice balancing marks on my flywheel too.

That being said, my engine is running really smooth. The NVH. I have isn't due to imbalance, but lack of mass on the crank. The lower mass alloys the engine to rev faster, though how much of an effect this has is debatable, but also alloys the engine to backlash more easily. Now, the engine my not actually start to travel backward, which I doubt it is, but it's easier to stall because the lower moment of inertia allows the engine to slow down more easily between combustion events.

But I digress. My NVH isn't as bad as stock, but this damper isn't for NVH, but more for damping the kick from combustion and the rapid deceleration on the other components. I may raise the idle, or I may go back to a heavier flywheel, but those aren't a current concern.
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
This damper isn't going to incorporate more fluid? Even if not, a sale is a sale and I won't have to have a spacer made, based on your initial post for this batch.
The issue with the IZ/AFN is that it is a much larger dampner from the factory. The later ones and similarly 1.9TDI MK4/2.0 TDI MK5/6 all have the same OD as the current offering.
The next issue is the accessories for water pump & power steering...



I think if they say that is the solution, the spacer should be included. God forbid they say the spacer you got made is wrong, and blame issues on that. (been there with vendors at my job- always liability risk).
I hate to be "that guy" but the above post is one of the main reasons why people try not to develop parts for the TDI crowd. It is a pulley....not a fuel pump. If you are not comfortable running one spacer or not then simply don't use one. The spacer is needed for the MK1-3 TDI's because it was designed for a MK4 engine.
So cliff notes for use of a 1.8T pulley current offering
MK1-3 - spacer required
MK4 - machining required
MK5/MK6 - direct fit

Some of the guys (who read this thread) purchased ALH units KNOWING there belts would be off by 1mm. One even stated
"like 1mm is going to cause that much belt deflection on a 1600+mm belt)
Technically 1mm could cause belt deflection but at least there are guys out there trying to make the product work for them.
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
The issue with the IZ/AFN is that it is a much larger dampner from the factory. The later ones and similarly 1.9TDI MK4/2.0 TDI MK5/6 all have the same OD as the current offering.
The next issue is the accessories for water pump & power steering...
Yeah, I know the clearance is low for between the power steering pulley and the damper on the 3rd gen. Thanks for the insight as to the other generational differences though.
 

Satiro

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Location
Spain
TDI
IBIZA 1.9TDI 110hp AFN 1998
The issue with the IZ/AFN is that it is a much larger dampner from the factory. The later ones and similarly 1.9TDI MK4/2.0 TDI MK5/6 all have the same OD as the current offering.
The next issue is the accessories for water pump & power steering...
wow, seems like that's not worth it for the mk3 platform for sure... sad to hear about that
 
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robnitro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
The issue with the IZ/AFN is that it is a much larger dampner from the factory. The later ones and similarly 1.9TDI MK4/2.0 TDI MK5/6 all have the same OD as the current offering.
The next issue is the accessories for water pump & power steering...

I hate to be "that guy" but the above post is one of the main reasons why people try not to develop parts for the TDI crowd. It is a pulley....not a fuel pump. If you are not comfortable running one spacer or not then simply don't use one. The spacer is needed for the MK1-3 TDI's because it was designed for a MK4 engine.
So cliff notes for use of a 1.8T pulley current offering
MK1-3 - spacer required
MK4 - machining required
MK5/MK6 - direct fit

Some of the guys (who read this thread) purchased ALH units KNOWING there belts would be off by 1mm. One even stated
"like 1mm is going to cause that much belt deflection on a 1600+mm belt)
Technically 1mm could cause belt deflection but at least there are guys out there trying to make the product work for them.
Yes, exactly. But when I was pointing out that the "development" cost isn't really a big deal as they claim to be, I got flak. Meanwhile, now you are saying "it's just a pulley".
So what is it? Some super complicated thing that needs tons of R&D to develop for an application, or as you now talk, just a pulley that can be used interchangeably from gas 1.8 to a TDI?

As Digital Corpus' disappointment shows, and your simple response of "just use a spacer" just shows how much marketing crap there is to say it has to be "developed" when in fact it is not that much more than "machining a pulley".

I'm all for new tech, but I am against techno hype.
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
Yes, exactly. But when I was pointing out that the "development" cost isn't really a big deal as they claim to be, I got flak. Meanwhile, now you are saying "it's just a pulley".
So what is it? Some super complicated thing that needs tons of R&D to develop for an application, or as you now talk, just a pulley that can be used interchangeably from gas 1.8 to a TDI?

As Digital Corpus' disappointment shows, and your simple response of "just use a spacer" just shows how much marketing crap there is to say it has to be "developed" when in fact it is not that much more than "machining a pulley".

I'm all for new tech, but I am against techno hype.
Not sure where the hostility is coming from but I don't respect what I post as technical data being defuncted to "techno hype".

From the top in Layman's terms.
- If TDI owners want a TDI specific dampner engineered from the ground up it will need "tons of R&D" whether you think that is simple or not as it will take minimum 6 months based on the track record for the VR6 & 1.8T products brought to market.
This requires a vendor (us) purchasing every single TDI pulley available , sending all of them to Fluidampr and then Fluidampr designs a "basic" pulley where there is a common element amongst all (in this case the 4 hub bolt) then marketing a pulley for each specific application. Based on what I have here for the TDI's there are 4 different pulleys:
- MK3 AAZ/AFN TDI = 028 105 243 T
- MK4 ALH TDI = 038 105 243
- MK5 2.0 TDI = 03G 105 243
- MK6 2.0 CBEA TDI = 03G 105 243
- VW Camper 2.0 TDI (twin turbo) = 03L 105 243
(and I am sure more part #'s will arise)

That is 4 different parts so 4 projects that need to go through the R&D process. Fluidampr does not see a market for the TDI crowd which is where we came in. For the 2.0 TFSI & 1.8T crowd , they saw a market as it was as simple as pre final machining drilling 4 holes instead of 6 and vice versa.

My goal is this. Work with Fluidampr to NOT completely redesign a new pulley but to modify the current 1.8T offering to have a 6mm longer back hub and 2mm thicker mounting face. There is an MOQ of 50 units for this but they are at least willing to work with us on this front. This will allow us to cover most of the TDI motors with 15-20 minutes of machine work before they are sent out to be black zinc plated.

From reference the ALH pulley weighs 2118g whereas the Fluidampr unit weighs 2805g. They both have an OD (top of the rib) of 138mm.

Based on reviews by forum users (most recent done by Fouchest on his compound charged TDI) the 551201 Unit which was designed for the 1.8T works for most applications and here is how:

If you have the following:
028 105 243 T
This pulley has an OD of 148mm (so 10mm larger in diameter than the ALH unit) then you can use the Fluidampr 1.8T unit but you need a 6mm spacer. There is no 148mm OD pulley from Fluidampr and in order to get a 148mm unit , there is a MOQ of 50 so unless 50 AFN/AAZ/AHU users come forward and state they want a Fluidampr replacement for 028 105 243 T then it will not happen. Now using the 1.8T which others have done in the past , you will need a billet accessory drive for the v-belt portion of the power steering & water pump because the Fluidampr face is much thicker than the 028 105 243 T face.

038 105 243
As a forum user Serge pointed out , this pulley sits approx 1.6mm too close to the timing belt face compared to the Fluidampr. it is the same 138mm OD. This pulley falls into the 50 MOQ Custom units we are mentioning above. So if you own an ALH , we will machine off 6.1mm (1.6mm + 4.5mm) off the back mounting face) and will supply the necessary hardware for the pulley or we supply a 1.8T unit machined ~2mm off the rear face.

03G 105 243
If you have this pulley , then it follows the same as above 038 105 243

03L 105 243

This is the crafter pulley so you will need a drive for the secondary plane.

HTH
Issam
 
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turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Yeah, I know we wish for a heavier damper due to the diesel application though that will not come to fruition.

.
Curious but why do you want a heavier damper?
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
To further damp the magnitude of the torsional vibrations along the accessory belt
But by design, it's what it does and IMHO, making it heavier is simply going to stress the crank and maybe cause issues down the road, IE the front snout snapping off, which I've seen happen.
 

Turboguy

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Location
New England
TDI
Golf, Passat
Looks like your and everyone else's prayers might get answered.
I submitted a rendering tonight of what modifications need to be made to the current 1.8T unit to make it work on all the TDI's. The end product will be application/customer specific so please bare with me while Fluidampr & I work out the details.
I am going to push to have the pulley NOT have a "1.8T" or any other markings on it other than the Fluidampr logo. The AAZ and other pre-1999 TDI's require a spacer and the ALH / Post 1999 1.9 TDI's require machining so the mounting face is going to get alot thicker (thus adding weight). Now comes the fun part of R&D and seeing how we can incorporate it all without interfering with the viscous coupling. Once Fluidampr's lead Engineer comes to an agreement , we will move forward with a batch which will then be finalized inhouse here @ INA and then black zinc plated to the customer's specs.

in layman's terms we are making 1 pulley and then machining the mounting hub to suite your engine. It will be marked for THAT specific engine to avoid confusion when reselling to another party should you decide to remove it in 2-3 years.

I would like one for a 99 ALH. Thank you for your efforts.
 

robnitro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
Hey, even though I'm not looking to get it, I can thank you for the effort dealing with them to bring it here.
I just don't appreciate the doublespeak that comes out, which I termed "techno hype".

My problem is that you and some others were explaining this as some extreme R+D needed, but I explained how liquid dampers work and self balance. It was something that was snuffed off as my ignorance of how "complicated it is" alluding to the idea that fluiddampr has done extensive testing for every engine. Yes, they do, but nothing of the balancing, but the machining- which is what one person joked about machining under drive pulleys.

Yet now there is irony where the 1.8t one is being used for example, with machining. JUST LIKE WAS EXPLAINED BY MY POST, FLUID DAMPERS SELF BALANCE AND DON'T NEED MAGICAL "CALIBRATION" AS WAS CLAIMED.

So, it turns out it is JUST MACHINING needed. No problem, it will work as a fluid damper balances itself!!! Including the spacer would be a good way to make it useable instead of making people go and find their own machine shop.

It just kind of irked me like DBW would give half truths, not in proper context to make people who question things as "ignorant" or what not.

Not sure where the hostility is coming from but I don't respect what I post as technical data being defuncted to "techno hype".

From the top in Layman's terms.
- If TDI owners want a TDI specific dampner engineered from the ground up it will need "tons of R&D" whether you think that is simple or not as it will take minimum 6 months based on the track record for the VR6 & 1.8T products brought to market.
This requires a vendor (us) purchasing every single TDI pulley available , sending all of them to Fluidampr and then Fluidampr designs a "basic" pulley where there is a common element amongst all (in this case the 4 hub bolt) then marketing a pulley for each specific application. Based on what I have here for the TDI's there are 4 different pulleys:
- MK3 AAZ/AFN TDI = 028 105 243 T
- MK4 ALH TDI = 038 105 243
- MK5 2.0 TDI = 03G 105 243
- MK6 2.0 CBEA TDI = 03L 105 243
(and I am sure more part #'s will arise)

That is 4 different parts so 4 projects that need to go through the R&D process. Fluidampr does not see a market for the TDI crowd which is where we came in. For the 2.0 TFSI & 1.8T crowd , they saw a market as it was as simple as pre final machining drilling 4 holes instead of 6 and vice versa.

My goal is this. Work with Fluidampr to NOT completely redesign a new pulley but to modify the current 1.8T offering to have a 6mm longer back hub and 2mm thicker mounting face. There is an MOQ of 50 units for this but they are at least willing to work with us on this front. This will allow us to cover most of the TDI motors with 15-20 minutes of machine work before they are sent out to be black zinc plated.<SNIP>
 
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INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
So, it turns out it is JUST MACHINING needed. No problem, it will work as a fluid damper balances itself!!! Including the spacer would be a good way to make it useable instead of making people go and find their own machine shop.
Which is what we are trying to avoid.
i.e.
2 options:
1. Make it with a hub extension and we do the end machining in house to the customers specific engine.
2. Fluidampr makes 29083984 different configurations ...

I think option 1 is best ;)
 

Nash_TDI

Veteran Member -TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Location
Louisville, ky
TDI
2000 Silver Jetta TDI
for the water pump , alternator etc? Been making them since 2005.
No different than the gas offerings.
search EAA Engineering on vwvortex as I handed off the pulley sales to him.
Thats kinda why I thought it was relevant to this thread. I knew you guys made them.
 

oldpoopie

Vendor
Joined
May 14, 2001
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
Well I just ordered a 1.8T one from Issam. When it gets to me I'll snap some comparison photos and show just how little needs to be machined off.
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
Well I just ordered a 1.8T one from Issam. When it gets to me I'll snap some comparison photos and show just how little needs to be machined off.
Today we took the following for CM for more accuracy:
- 06A 1.8T crankshaft + crankshaft gear + accessory pulley
- 06A 1.9TDI crankshaft + crankshaft gear + accessory pulley (ALH)
The actual difference from crankshaft snout base to first rib on the serpentine pulley is approx 2.00mm give or take so all of those that wanted an ALH specific pulley , we are machining the Fluidampr down 2mm (it is presently 5mm thick) and adding a 4mm thick washer + SS hardware for installation.

For reference the ALH from the back of the pulley to 1st groove = 11.41Xmm and Fluidampr is 13.41Xmm

HTH
 

dirtride

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Location
GROK-west coast, USA
TDI
2003 Golf
Just to clairify, are these being machined and shipped out now for an ALH or is there a wait for a 50 unit minimum order before they are shipped?

Thanks
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
Just to clairify, are these being machined and shipped out now for an ALH or is there a wait for a 50 unit minimum order before they are shipped?

Thanks
For ALH those that want , we are machining the back end of the 1.8T unit and shipping them out. Those that do not want the following:
- Machined back end
- 1.8T logo on the face
- "gas part on diesel car"
will have to wait. So if you don't fall into the above category then we got you covered ;)
 

INA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2.5 TDI
UPDATE
Had a 1 hour conference call with Fluidampr yesterday afternoon to discuss moving forward with the TDI pulleys.
Cliff notes and reiterations discussed previously
- Machining the current 551201 (1.8T) Fluidampr to fit 1.9 TDI motors no longer makes them SFI certified (any of you drag race your TDI professionally? No? thought so :p)
- Streetdamper (a subsidiary of Fluidampr) will move forward with a production run of a unit to meet our specifications and will arrive uncoated ready to machine. The internals will be the EXACT SAME as the 551201 unit but will not be SFI certified since machining has to take place on them.
- Units will allow TDI's users to upgrade from rubber dampener to viscous dampner.
- Machining will be performed inhouse and stamped specific to the application for the customer.
- Upon completion , units will be black zinc plated to give the original finish supplied with the 551201 units.

You can all rejoice now!
 

Lensdude_com

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Location
Edmonton, AB
TDI
99.5 MK4 Jetta (ALH) "Betty" (sold), 2005 MK4 Jetta (BEW) "Stinky-Pete"
...I'm guessing this means we are still in the 'who wants one for what' stage?
or are you ready to start invoicing the list of subscribers?
 
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