Flipped V6 trans into Tdi Vanagon. Tim Shettle adapter plate

I started another thread about a flipped transmission adapter and swap (here: https://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=451265), but that adapter plate swap was an utter failure, so I’m starting a new thread here.

The approach below is wholly new (for me… other people have done it already), and hasn’t been exclusively covered in other threads out there. So. I’m writing it up here.

Tim Shettle said only about 6 people in North America have ordered his plates. This number should be much, much higher; this is absolutely the best engine and transmission combination for these vans, and it’s the lowest cost! If you love you some vanagon, this is THE way to go.

I bought a transmission adapter plate and cv adapters from Tim Shettle for around $550.00 usd. Website here: http://ultimate-engineering.co.uk. The exchange rate is exceptional against the pound right now (March 14th 2016), so if you have any inkling of doing this: do it now!

Along with the adapter plates, I bought a 2000 V6 5 speed (code DVZ) for $230.00. You can probably get one for much less if you’re a little patient and crafty. I got the linkage and shifter along with the transmission—make sure you do too.

Also need a Starter, Flywheel, Pressure plate, and clutch plate. About $500.00 for everything.

So. I’m into it for about $1,250.00 total. One of my original goals was to keep the cost of this reasonable and make it easy enough to accomplish. Of all the options out there (see my other thread for analysis of all the options), I think this one is the most reasonable, and relatively easy to accomplish. Although, I would have like to have kept it close to $500.00 total.

Potential cost savings include only buying the transmission adapter plate (the cv adapters are as much as the plate). That would have knocked around $250.00 off the adapter price. Getting a friend who is in Great Brittan to bring the adapter bits to you, instead of paying for shipping. Making the adapter plate myself. And/or sitting at home and staring at a wall and not doing this insanity in the first place. For convenience, and because I have the $$$ right now, I went the route I did, but it wasn’t without a certain amount of consternation. But my larger point is that it is possible to make this even more affordable. Getting the transmission for free (or close to it) is possible. I’ve seen many manual passats on CL lately for as little as $300.00. just getting the transmission and parting the rest out would make it worth it, and probably then some!

This transmission adapter plate opens a door that a TDI Vanagon needs: now there are reasonable transmission options (both cost, and ideal gearing wise)! I have a DVZ transmission, but I think you could just as easily put the tdi 5, or even tdi 6 speed in there with this adapter plate. I’m not doing that because those are expensive, and I’m not sure they’d be worth the extra money as the gearing might be too low then—but the bigger point is that there are options for transmissions. This has been a big hurdle for me, and I’m sure many others out there.

Below I’ll document how I accomplished my linkage setup, how the installation goes, and then impressions and reports on how it all works. A big thanks to Tim Shettle!

Today, April 15th, I drove the thing for the first time with the new transmission. At 55 mph the rpms were at 2085! It was just dreamy! There was some vibration, especially when I asked for power. I think the axles aren't happy, but all and all I'm extremely happy with the result!

Tim wanted me to not show the adapter plates. He said they're hard to make, but easy to copy, so I'm going to skip the part where I actually attach the transmission to the engine. Kinda juicy, I know, but attaching it is braindead easy so...

Here it is attached for the first time

I just put the engine on the ground and then slid them together. In retrospect I wish I would have taken the engine out all the way. You practically have to anyway, and it's worth it.

It's necessary to lower the engine 40mm (about 1-9/16"). Also need to make it go forward 10mm (about 3/8"+).

Here is the adapter I made for the other side

Don't make fun of my welding. I'm a functional welder!
The axles felt like they were too close to the enclosure at the wheel so I cut off some bits there. Not sure I needed to, but it made me feel better:

I’m really proud of the linkage setup I came up with. Others have done boat cables, and you can order stuff that will make it all work from Tim.
My setup is quirky to say the least. The shifting pattern is upside down and backwards, just like the transmission!. 1st is far away from you and back, 2nd is far away and forward, third is in the same spot! 5th is closest to you and back, and reverse is in the same spot, but you don’t have to push down or anything. The feel of it going into the gears is similar to how it used to function; that is to say that it feels like a big wooden spoon stirring a 65gallon drum. There is little to indicate when you’re in gear, or neutral, or what gear you’re in. Just like VW designed it!
What’s the advantage of using the original gearing then, you ask? Good question!
First of all, it’s free. Second, it is easy! It’s so insanely easy! All the boat cable setups looked like engineering works of art. Ok not quite that, but they do look complicated. This is just cutting the old, cutting the new, welding the two together, a little bend here or there between friends, and voila! It’s ready to be shifted. I’ll get used to the shifting pattern. I think. If nothing else, it’s a good theft deterrent.

Looking forward to hearing more about how it works out for you. I agree that a stout recent trans is a big upgrade over trying to make a decades old transaxle up to snuff and lower cost too.

How much ground clearance do you have with the lowered engine/trans? Pics of the van with all installed would be interesting too

Congrats!
Mark

I reused/modified the rear/front transmission mount as well (direction is a tricky thing on these!). One existing hole lines up perfectly with one of the studs on the V6 transmission. It’s weird.
So. Just screw the old plate on. Mark the new holes needed and cut them! There are 4 altogether. The bolt on the very top hits right were there is a void on the old mount, so I welded a piece in there to catch it.
Also need to extend the arms (the duckbill!) at the bottom so it catches the doughnut. And drill new holes there.

markd89 said:

Looking forward to hearing more about how it works out for you. I agree that a stout recent trans is a big upgrade over trying to make a decades old transaxle up to snuff and lower cost too.

How much ground clearance do you have with the lowered engine/trans? Pics of the van with all installed would be interesting too

Congrats!
Mark

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I measured after it was all installed and I got 8". Plenty for me. There is a particularly low spot that I think could be eliminated with some ingenuity, but the height doesn't bother me at all. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them for you. My suspension is completely shot, so my van sits a little funny, but I'll get some perspectives so you can get the idea .

Andrew

I tapped the old oil drain plug and put in this thing I found in the plumbing section. It worked great! Where the old vent was, I just plugged it with a screw. The old cap even fit on top of the new fitting... It was meant to be.

i think rhd conversion to go with shift pattern..

It is right hand drive! I was trying to think of what it reminded me of, and it was was the drive from Durban to Cape Town. I was sitting on the other side, obviously, but it was the first time I had to conceptualize shifting that way. It should go with the conversion; to all of you who reengineered it to shift like a normal VW: shame! .

Here are the new measurements. Looks like I was optimistic by an inch or so, but what's an inch between friends (that sounds sort of creepy!).
The very bottom part that sticks down and that I measured to, could be cut off, I think, but you would sacrifice one of the precious few bolt holes that go through all 3 setups (trans/adapter plate/engine). Probably wouldn't be worth the 1" you'd get back.

(And yes, my exhaust is hung to the tow loop with the ground wire from 10g romex. It works brilliantly!)

Here are incredibly blurry shots of my inaugural run last night with my wife, while attempting to take pictures of the speedo and scanguage tachometer. I'll get better documentation today.

2045 rpm's at 53 mph ±...

I'm looking for 944 porsche axles. I think I need them for the angels the original ones ended up at. Anyone have a good set lying around... Andy, I'm looking at you .

Haha! Much better:


I'm really happy with these rpms in 5th!!!

Ordered 944 axles today. It was like a popcorn machine back there every time I went around a corner. Also when I accelerated from about 35-50 everything shook like I'd put a quarter or two in the receptacle by the bed... but not in a good way. I think the 944 axles might alleviate at least some of that. The oem vanagon cv's don't have great flexibility when the angle gets too severe. The 944's should fix that, and if they don't fix the shaking too, I'll get new motor mounts.
...Speaking of motor mounts; welding in new-- more sophisticated mounts is becoming more and more appealing...

Andrew

nice tranny swap, kinda wish i'd gone this route on my van, spent way too much $$$ on improving the 091... i think it would be pretty easy to flip your pattern back to the stock b5 pattern by moving the shift lever fulcrum below the shift rod attachment point ... also thought it was 914 axles you wanted but i'm probably wrong

does this gearbox have an lsd?

jimbote said:

nice tranny swap, kinda wish i'd gone this route on my van, spent way too much $$$ on improving the 091... i think it would be pretty easy to flip your pattern back to the stock b5 pattern by moving the shift lever fulcrum below the shift rod attachment point ... also thought it was 914 axles you wanted but i'm probably wrong

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Based on this conversation on the samba-- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=517688
I bought 944 axles. And Andybeez said he bought 944's for the extra angle coverage they provide so it must be right!

I've been imagining different ways of making it shift the "right" way. I was thinking about a fulcrum point in the middle that switches it like you're talking about, but just under the stick shift would probably be easier.
I can imagine shifting backwards might get old eventually. Right now it's nice because it was easy, and I can just use the thing... I'll see how much it annoys me going forward and then leave it or change it from there.

dokatim said:

does this gearbox have an lsd?

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I think all cars do... Don't they? Why do you ask.

In other news-- now I'm all hot and bothered to add cruise control. I must have it! My Scangauge (Sg) doesn't read mph (I verified that the speedo in the van was right, or close to it, with a speedo app I have on my phone. I think it's called speed box. On my other cars, and when I go through mph checkpoints in town the app on my phone seems pretty spot on. The van speedo is within a mph or two of being right-- even with 17" tires!).

Since the Sg doesn't read mph, I'm thinking there's no vss hooked up... Also, the speedo cable in the dash runs off a wheel? Weird. Anyway, I'll have to figure out the vss signal thing; if anyone has pointers, I'm all ears. I've got the wiring part for the cc stalk-- I set one up in a rabbit tdi swap I did not too long ago and got proficient at everything that goes into that part.

factory cruise easy to add... all the cruise parts stayed the same from 83-93 aka vac pump, control box, the pod bracket is the misc aspect, so can build one easy at gas pedal.. the speed sensor reads at the speedo head.. held in with 2 screws.. the cruise stalk/turn lever is the hard to buy part.. vut a factory cruise vanagon did happen.. you can even replace the clock in a gas tach cluster to a jetta diesel tach to have factory tach..

my first retro fit of factory cruise i built my own harness.. just copy from the book.. then i found quantiums to have the perfect no cut and remove harness vs all the rest that are part of the nain harness.. i did my first add in back in 94.. and i did add cruize and tach to a diesel vanagon back in 02ish.. along with power nirrors

if you added a piece like on the steering rack of a mk2... in the middle of shift tube, it should mirror the shift pattern..

annieneff said:

I think all cars do... Don't they? Why do you ask.

In other news-- now I'm all hot and bothered to add cruise control. I must have it! My Scangauge (Sg) doesn't read mph (I verified that the speedo in the van was right, or close to it, with a speedo app I have on my phone. I think it's called speed box. On my other cars, and when I go through mph checkpoints in town the app on my phone seems pretty spot on. The van speedo is within a mph or two of being right-- even with 17" tires!).

Since the Sg doesn't read mph, I'm thinking there's no vss hooked up... Also, the speedo cable in the dash runs off a wheel? Weird. Anyway, I'll have to figure out the vss signal thing; if anyone has pointers, I'm all ears. I've got the wiring part for the cc stalk-- I set one up in a rabbit tdi swap I did not too long ago and got proficient at everything that goes into that part.

Click to expand...

Not all cars come with LSD. VW Mk2/Mk3/B3/B4 never came with LSD standard. I don't think MkIV did either. It's kind of expensive.

Steve

Steve Addy said:

Not all cars come with LSD. VW Mk2/Mk3/B3/B4 never came with LSD standard. I don't think MkIV did either. It's kind of expensive.

Steve

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It is clear to me that I don't know what LSD is then... It's not a limited slip differential, I take it.

the lsd is more posi traction vs a standard diff... think early quattrwhere you culd lck the diff via the vacume button.. and as far as i know only quattros and syncros have lsd in vws.. traction control haldex type cars use the brakes to stop the spnning of the wheel that spins.. so yup no lsd in factory vw fwd stuff unless you purchas a qualif type diff

annieneff said:

It's not a limited slip differential, I take it.

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Yes it is They are pretty rare in modern production cars though. Some high performance / sporty rwd models get them, like M5, Miata etc. Very rare indeed in fwd models since they can make the handling quite aggressive - the only car I can think of with one is the mk1 Focus RS. Everything else relies on the ABS / ESP electronics.

VAG have, afaik, never fitted a front LSD in any model. The only Quattro model I know of with a rear LSD is the original V8 sedan which had a Torsen. Up until very recently longitudinal Quattro meant a centre Torsen, but even that has been replaced by electronics on new models.

Porsche did use LSDs in some of the 944s (using Audi 016 transmissions but in the back) but they are very rare indeed and these days demand as much as an aftermarket LSD such as a Quaife or Peloquin. The Boxster which also uses Audi transmissions just does the LSD function electronically.

I don't believe there is a bolt-in LSD for the 012 that you have since it's not used in performance models. The options for longitudinal LSDs are (afaik) limited to the 01E 6-speed since that's what everyone uses for high power outputs.

This might be useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeLm7wHvdxQ

annieneff said:

... Also, the speedo cable in the dash runs off a wheel? Weird.

Click to expand...

Yeah the older bugs speedo comes off the drivers side front wheel.

Looking good!

markd89 said:

Looking good!

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Thanks Mark!
I get the new 944 axles on Monday, looking forward to throwing those in there and seeing what difference they make. If they're the cureall I'm anticipating... I. think. that. will. be. it... I hesitate to write that!
Until then, I've been driving it sparingly this week as I think the popping axle thing is not a sign of good health.
Lots more to come next week--

Andrew

cool, i'm really looking forward to seeing this thing roll out... please take pics of those 944 axles ... are you just using the joints ?

Got the 944 axles about noon yesterday and had to do a bunch of responsible stuff, so I didn’t get them installed until just now…

WOW, what a difference! I’m going to recommend to Tim Shettle that he very strongly encourage anyone doing this to get these axles. They aren’t expensive (around $150.00 for the pair), and the difference is absolutely remarkable.





My old axles were a little pathetic and old, but I’m sure that doesn’t account for the significant difference. It used to be that when I asked for power especially around 40, it would shake and bounce around and make it clear it was objecting. When I went around any corner, I could hear the old axles popping. The passenger side axle is only a few years old. I changed it in some parkinglot in Astoria Oregon. It was a Napa thing. The other one (driver side) could very well have been the original. It was gross and crusty in every way. I felt bad putting it in there when I was finishing up with the transmission install, but I figured if it worked, why not.





Anyway, the new axles are an unequivocal success. It drives like a normal car now! Smooth and quiet. The difference is just spectacular! I took it on a long drive just now (25± miles). At the end of the drive there was a nice long steep hill. It’s comparable to the steeper parts Stevens Pass (pretty steep), but not as long (obviously). I didn’t try to do it in 5th, but it pulled just fine from 50-60 all the way up it. It had about 15lbs of boost the entire way up so it was working pretty good. I didn’t try to go to 5th only because it’s hard to get into and I don’t think I could have successfully got into it before slowing down too much. But going over the pass at 60 in 4th gear will be just fine with me, if that’s what I end up needing to do. On the flats In 5th I got to 65 a few times and for the first time in this van it didn’t feel scary. The engine was quiet and smooth. Part of the reason my pictures of the rpms and etc are so blurry is because the van was shaking so violently. All of that is gone now.

Best of all, the clutch (1.8t) held tight with no signs of slippage, and it was silky smooth with no vibrations or bad sounds. I really think this is the exact Vanagon VW should have made (if they were capable of it back then). I just can’t imagine a better setup at this point.

That said… There is still so much to do! An oil leak to track down and take care of, transmission fluid keeps on coming out of the top of the transmission. I put a 1’ extension hose on that fitting I put on there, but it’s just spraying out of there now. Annoying, since I had my engine bay pretty clean. My turbo oil drain hose still doesn’t angle down. I’ve messed with that thing more times than I’ll ever admit. I think I’m going to have to finally break down and tap a new hole somewhere. There are stupid skylites that someone put in that leak. The interior is gross from sitting all winter and needs a good detail… And on, and on.
But! It’s oh so nice having the major systems in there, and working so well! Man I love how this van drives!

I’ll keep track of mpg’s and report back. I’ll also fess up to any issues that arise from all this, but I’m hoping to just be tying up the other loose ends from now on.

Cheers!

Andrew

Dear lord transmission fluid is going everywhere! On the way back from the store there was some smoke and upon inspection when I got home I saw it was because the 1' hose with a reducer on the end was squirting trans fluid all over the exhaust manifold! Yikes. Otherwise, it was very successful though.

So: what's happening here? I put about 4 liters of trans fluid in there, maybe a little more. But I've probably lost a liter by now. Why isn't it staying in there? And ideas on this one?

4 liters? how much is supposed to be in it? seem excessive..

so only 2 ways i know stuff gets blown out a vent...

1 overfilled

2.. a bearing thats over heating.. causes hot spot.. gear oil boils up out the vent.. something id worry inverting one could cause

4 liters is more then a gal of gear oil.. i think you need to check for its proper fill amount