Suspect timing belt on 04 Golf

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
Hi there! Been lurking a while, and happy/sad to post about an issue I'm having.

The car is a 04 Golf, BEW engine, been driving/fixing it for almost a year. Poor thing had fallen into neglect, sat on a farm unused for a year. By far, the hardest repair I've done on it was cleaning all the mouse piss out of the AC ducts.

Anyway. It has just over 208 k miles on it, and the timing belt was changed at 120 k. I made a mistake: I thought the changing interval was 100 k, but looks like it's 80 k for the BEW engine.

So a couple weeks ago I'm driving home, an it felt rumbly when stopped. Putting it in park at stoplights alleviated that a bit. About a mile later it rumbles at 30 MPH, and is starting to sound slightly bad in park as well. I'm near home and decide to continue, not in denial that something is wrong.

Just two blocks from home it starts to sound awful, not suddenly but not gradually, kind of a knocking sound. The car is shaking, not severely, but noticeably. I park it immediately and turn it off.

Oil and engine lights are off. I checked the oil and its fine. I started it today (dumb?) because I had to move it, it makes something in between the characteristic diesel Arr Arr Arr (but much louder) and more of a knocking noise.

The question at last: how likely is it that changing the timing belt will fix this? Don't get me wrong, the timing belt needs changing, what I'm worried about is the possibility of it being something else.

Thanks!
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
No way to know over the interwebs... until you pull off the timing belt covers and thoroughly inspect the timing belt for missing teeth. :) :)
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
Potentially dumb question: suppose teeth are missing, or something obvious is off. Would fixing this be a good bet, or is there a fair chance the engine (or something else expensive) is shot? That's my main worry :)

I guess the real question is: would it be smart if a person who sees a TDI as a practical means of getting around (as opposed to a love item :)) looked into fixing this, or sold it as is for something like 1000$?
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
Short answer - Yes, your engine will have a catastrophic failure if the cam and crank go out of time.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
So you have an automatic trans.? Does it make the rumble sounds in neutral as well? If not, it may be a transmission issue, not the timing belt.
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
So you have an automatic trans.? Does it make the rumble sounds in neutral as well? If not, it may be a transmission issue, not the timing belt.
That's a great idea. I'm a bit scared of starting the car again, but I think I should do this.

I just did a VCDS-lite autoscan, skipping the irrelevant parts:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Friday, 15 December 2017, 12:01:00:0


Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,19,22,29,35,36,37,39,46,47,55,56,57,75,76

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 038 906 016 H
Component: R4 1,9L EDC G000AG 6327
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 08316
VCID: 19454E679081
No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09A-927-750.LBL
Controller: 09A 927 750 AM
Component: AG5 Getriebe 09A 0251
VCID: 769F65DB41DF
2 Faults Found:
00300 - Transmission Fluid Temp. Sensor (G93)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01314 - Engine Control Module
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent



No chance this ECM thing might be to blame? I'd figure if the problem was electronic it wouldn't manifest gradually (this all happened over 15 mins/3 miles).
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
For gods sake pull the timing belt cover off and take a look. It takes 5 minutes the first time you do it.
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
heh...

So I'd opened the hood and looked carefully when it happened a couple weeks ago,nothing obvious. Today, for god's sake no less, I decided to check out the timing belt in person. First, impatiently pulling the cover back after removing just one clip:



But other things seemed off. That boost tube, which I've handled to the point of intimacy at this point, seems... bent. And the cover dislocated? Pushed against the intake flap? Was it like that before? No...





Come to think of it, whole engine looks sunk.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh. Now I see! It's my engine, it's falling off.





At risk of sounding like a broken record, anyone have an opinion on practical fixability? Risk of severe damage having occurred? I think I like this car more than I want to admit, but I don't want to spend thousands.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Who did the timing belt service? If I had to guess they didn't replace the single use mount bolts. This can cause the mount or the bracket on the block to fail, breaking the tab on the block. Dieselgeek has block repair kits. https://www.dieselgeek.com/collections/broken-vw_block-repair-kits

However, I don't think that's your major problem. You need to have someone pull the valve cover and look at the lifters for evidence of piston to valve contact, and probably pull the cylinder head to see if any damage has been done. If you've had piston to valve contact you'll have to have the head repaired including new valves, followers, and a camshaft, most likely. If you're lucky there hasn't been any damage to pistons or cylinder walls.

If someone else is doing the work it could well cost thousands.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Those giant detailed photos don't help me much.
Do a good inspection of the belt and appurtenances.
Is it pretty tight? Maybe the tensioner failed, teeth got sheared or a roller bearing went.
Good idea to not start it. You can rotate by hand to aid with inspection.
The knock sound is a bit scary. Not much you can do over this interweb thing for now.
You had event, sounds like it got out of time and valves met pistons, never a good thing.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Rich at Fix-Um Haus in Portland knows how to deal with this kind of event. You might want to have it towed to him for evaluation.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Yeah, I'd say that broken motor mount is your problem. The timing belt looks pretty good, but sounds like it's due for a new one anyhow.
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
Who did the timing belt service? If I had to guess they didn't replace the single use mount bolts.
My dad, I'll bet your guess is correct :(

Those giant detailed photos don't help me much.
Do a good inspection of the belt and appurtenances.
Is it pretty tight? Maybe the tensioner failed, teeth got sheared or a roller bearing went.
Not even for entertainment? Belt's tight, I'll take a closer look soon.

However, I don't think that's your major problem. You need to have someone pull the valve cover and look at the lifters for evidence of piston to valve contact, and probably pull the cylinder head to see if any damage has been done. If you've had piston to valve contact you'll have to have the head repaired including new valves, followers, and a camshaft, most likely. If you're lucky there hasn't been any damage to pistons or cylinder walls.
If someone else is doing the work it could well cost thousands.
Inspection sounds easy, I'll do it myself. Would it amount to checking clearances?

I've always done my own service, but I just don't have time for a timing belt replacement now. If the valves turn out ok I'll be extremely happy to change my mounts myself (and have someone replace the belt ASAP)! High hopes. Will let you guys know what happens. Thanks so far :)
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
Update! I thought hard about how to proceed, and concluded that an engine with 200+ k miles isn't worth trying too hard to save. So, I half-assed it! I firmly supported the engine from below, peered in to make sure nothing is blatantly pressing against the timing belt/pulleys, and cranked it.

Sounded very normal, except for a light chattering sound which I assume/hope is loose engine mount bolts.

Speaking of which, the mount itself is yielded as shown in the pic in the other post. It's not the culprit though; the lowermost bolt on the engine mount bracket lost its head, while the other two above are loose (and presumably bent). First photo shows the bracket, peeled away.

The timing belt looks pristine, new almost. I cranked it a bit a few times in order to inspect most of it, no missing teeth. So, my theory on the early symptoms is that the loose bracket pushed against the belt cover and possibly belt hard enough to throw things off without actually skipping.

I could be wrong of course, but considering the low cost/effort required in replacing the mount and mount bracket bolts I intend to do that and hope for the best.









 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
To check the belt you have to crank the engine with a socket & breaker bar from the center bolt on the crank pulley.
Might have to take some plastic off to access it.
Do NOT crank the engine from the cam pulley or backwards. Mark the belt with a crayon as you go so you know how far you went and when you made a complete revolution.
The valve cover is easy to get off but you need a 5mm allen socket. (iIrc)
You will see the round lifters under the cam.
If there's spider web cracks it's from a valve hitting a piston.
Did your dad have to correct lock tools for the cam when he did the belt?
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Properly replace the mounts and while you are there, check to see if the cam is still in time with the crank. If it is, then motor on. If it isn't, then pop the valve cover and inspect the cam followers and the cam.

Actually, inspect the cam either way.
 

najel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Location
Madison Lake, MN
TDI
2002 Golf 5 speed
You're fairly close to the timing belt change interval, even if timing is good now, if you have the motor mount bracket off to fix this issue, you might consider doing the timing belt at the same time. This job would involve removing a lot of the same parts.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
I thought hard about how to proceed, and concluded that an engine with 200+ k miles isn't worth trying too hard to save.

TDI engines have a lots of miles to give. 200K is more like midlife.

Totally worth saving if it's just the motor mounts and not much of anything else. Don't let your dad do the next timing belt. :D
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
TDI engines have a lots of miles to give. 200K is more like midlife.
Oh? Nice to know. I'm irked by VW overall reliability, but am impressed with the engines I've dealt with.

So, I wasn't clear at all. I didn't just crank it, I started it and let it run for 30ish seconds. Sounded normal except for faint aforementioned rattling, which again I assume is due to loose mount bolts no longer held down by the sagging engine.

I'll check static timing at least, and though I really, really want to change the belt myself I just don't have the time/energy right now. I'll let you guys know what happens, thanks much for the tips and for the opportunity to share my troubles!
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
The actual culprit turned out to be the engine mount bracket. Not my picture:



The head on the lower bolt was later found on the ground. The upper left bolt appears to be held in place with some kind of repair, which broke. The upper right bolt was the last thing holding this side of the engine: bent and mostly out.



This bracket buckled and put pressure on the timing belt and pulleys. I'm not sure exactly what was making the knocking sound, but I looked the system over and it still looks really healthy: there's no way a tooth has been skipped (and if it has, there's no way it's come back, so I should in theory observe a severe timing problem if the engine is started).



So, I replace two of the mount bracket bolts, skipping the third one for now because its hole is busted (luckily, there's a fix). I just want to see if the car runs normal, y'know. I replace the mount while I'm at it, and put just 30 ft lb on the bolts so that they don't stretch yet.

It starts right up and sounds quite normal. I carefully peek into the timing belt pulleys kind of expecting them to wobble what with them bearing half the weight of the engine, but they look just fine.

I drive off, and as soon as I try to rev a bit up hill hear a little boom sound and the car loses power. I limp back and it turns out forgot to clamp the boost hose properly: it opened up. Fixed that, went around the block uphill and down, and it sounds/feels fine.

I'll get the timing belt replaced ASAP and ask them to torque the bolts and apply the broken hole fix. That's my story, thanks for listening :D
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Well, from what I see, you have done well, grasshopper. Now don't drive it except to get it fixed. oldpoopie is in Gresham and can take care of you.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
I drive off, and as soon as I try to rev a bit up hill hear a little boom sound and the car loses power. I limp back and it turns out forgot to clamp the boost hose properly: it opened up. Fixed that, went around the block uphill and down, and it sounds/feels fine.

I'll get the timing belt replaced ASAP and ask them to torque the bolts and apply the broken hole fix. That's my story, thanks for listening :D
I missed on one of my boost hoses also, it happens.
I glanced through the thread and am not clear if you are over due for the belt change or it was changed recently.
The latest picture did not look like a new belt.
If you are going the do it get a proper belt kit which should include all the rollers, tensioner, water pump, and TTY bolts needed.
Do you have the specialty tools needed for this? Some online stores rent them.
 

ben_pcc

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Location
Portland, OR
TDI
04 Golf
It's due now and the next drive will be to someone (likely oldpoopie!) who'll fix it. I don't have the tools, time, or love. I'm not suggesting the belt's new by any stretch, just that it doesn't look like failure is imminent. Still, I'm not driving it anywhere but to get it fixed.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
OK, I wasn't clear either.
Didn't want you to have another surprise going down the road. :eek:
 
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