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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old May 30th, 2012, 08:31   #1
sledstorm1
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Default Gasoline particulate emissions

I have been noticing that some of the newer direct injected gas motors have sooty tail pipes. Ford's ecoboost f150 are bad for this and I have also noticed it happening to new Hyundai sonatas. One sonata was so bad the bumper was stained above the exhaust outlets, it remined me of my old 05.5 brm jetta. Are gas vehicle allowed more particulate emissions then diesel's?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 09:02   #2
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Yep. And that is why they'll be getting particle filters soon, too.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 10:57   #3
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Yep. And that is why they'll be getting particle filters soon, too.
Has your wife fitted you for one yet?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 11:06   #4
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Originally Posted by sledstorm1 View Post
...Are gas vehicle allowed more particulate emissions then diesel's?
No, but the particle emissions from gasoline engines tend to be much smaller than the particle emissions from diesels. PM emissions are currently regulated by mass in NA, and the extremely small particles from gasoline engines have almost no mass.

The particle number emissions from gassers are much higher than the particle number emissions from diesels with DPF, and in some common driving conditions, are as high or higher than diesel engines WITHOUT DPF.

In Europe, diesel cars now must meet a very strict particle number emission limit (6X10^11 particles per km), and DI gassers will have to meet a relaxed particle number limit of 6X10^12 particles/km starting in 2014, because DI gassers can't meet that limit at this point (and a significant number of MPFI gassers can't either)...





Source: Walter Piock, Guy Hoffmann, Axel Berndorfer, Patrick Salemi and Bernd Fusshoeller; “Strategies Towards Meeting Future Particulate Matter Emission Requirements in Homogeneous Gasoline Direct Injection Engines.” SAE International, 2011-01-1212

Last edited by wxman; May 30th, 2012 at 11:09.
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 10:17   #5
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Excellent comparison of the gasoline 2012 Passat PZEV vs the Passat TDI. the study was based on real world testing too.



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Old June 3rd, 2012, 10:34   #6
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Has your wife fitted you for one yet?

That would be a 'farticulate' filter, right?

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Old June 3rd, 2012, 11:59   #7
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Excellent comparison of the gasoline 2012 Passat PZEV vs the Passat TDI. the study was based on real world testing too....
Thanks!

Those are total emissions in the well-to-wheels stage that I calculated using EPA emission factors. The second graphic serves to illustrate that even using Euro 5 exhaust emissions for the TDI, the overall WTW emissions are LOWER than the PZEV gasoline version because of the much higher well-to-pump (WTP) emissions of gasoline (and another reason why I think the U.S. should have just adopted the Euro exhaust emission standards for diesels).
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Old June 4th, 2012, 07:54   #8
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So from this data, I am wondering how long it will take the epa to mandate particulate filter use on direct injected gasoline motors. When this happens it should level the playing field between gdi and diesels as far as production costs.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 07:59   #9
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and problems....
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Old June 5th, 2012, 10:04   #10
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Here's a graphical depiction of the particle size distributions of real-world gasoline (SI) and diesel particle emissions (taken from a CARB - *CARB* - document - Lev III PM Technical Support Document, “Development Of Particulate Matter Mass Standards For Future Light-Duty Vehicles.” Appendix P, page P65)...





The "Diesel Fleets" in the graphic are conventional diesels (no DPF). During "acceleration", the SI fleet average particle number exceeds the conventional diesel fleet almost across the entire particle size distribution field.

For reference, the following graphic demonstrates how effective DPF is compared to conventional diesel (even though the y-axis is in different units - particles/kg of fuel consumed in the first graphic; particles/cm^3 in the second graphic)...




(From Mayer et al,"Nanoparticle-Emission of EURO 4 and EURO 5 HDV Compared to EURO 3 With and Without DPF."; SAE 2007-01-1112)
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Old November 29th, 2012, 03:41   #11
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As an interesting reference, albeit from 2010, the US government looked at well to wheel total emissions of different engine types in vehicles: they don't even look at conventional internal combustion diesel to compare to but use diesel engines under the hybrid category.

There is such a bias in the US against diesels, this category isn't even looked at much of the time, it seems, even though the majority of large trucks and locomotives use it.

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Old December 2nd, 2012, 15:05   #12
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
No, but the particle emissions from gasoline engines tend to be much smaller than the particle emissions from diesels. PM emissions are currently regulated by mass in NA, and the extremely small particles from gasoline engines have almost no mass.
It is exactly the smaller particles that stay up in the air longer. That's why smog in the LA area is much higher on the weekends when less trucks and more cars are on the road.

The same smaller particles get deeper and more easily stuck in the lungs. That is what impairs lung function and gives a higher risk of cancer.

But as we all know, CARB doesn't want to know the truth. That's why they ignore the weekend effect.

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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
As an interesting reference, albeit from 2010, the US government looked at well to wheel total emissions of different engine types in vehicles: they don't even look at conventional internal combustion diesel to compare to but use diesel engines under the hybrid category.

There is such a bias in the US against diesels, this category isn't even looked at much of the time, it seems, even though the majority of large trucks and locomotives use it.

TM
Funny, looking at that number, it is not really a diesel hybrid, but a diesel alone that easily gets that number. I suppose they put it under hybrid to hide that the diesel engine alone is cleaner than gas. There is definately some shady stuff going on!

I'm not confident about the ethanol numbers. Perhaps on CO2 it scores lower, but then- there is much less energy per gallon of ethanol.

What is also interesting is the plug in electric battery car gets similar ratings to diesel. Despite that, the electric cars are overhyped as the solution to our problems. Just like CARB ignoring the weekend effect.

Last edited by robnitro; December 2nd, 2012 at 15:10.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 12:21   #13
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Originally Posted by robnitro View Post
It is exactly the smaller particles that stay up in the air longer. That's why smog in the LA area is much higher on the weekends when less trucks and more cars are on the road.

The same smaller particles get deeper and more easily stuck in the lungs. That is what impairs lung function and gives a higher risk of cancer.

But as we all know, CARB doesn't want to know the truth. That's why they ignore the weekend effect.



Funny, looking at that number, it is not really a diesel hybrid, but a diesel alone that easily gets that number. I suppose they put it under hybrid to hide that the diesel engine alone is cleaner than gas. There is definately some shady stuff going on!

I'm not confident about the ethanol numbers. Perhaps on CO2 it scores lower, but then- there is much less energy per gallon of ethanol.

What is also interesting is the plug in electric battery car gets similar ratings to diesel. Despite that, the electric cars are overhyped as the solution to our problems. Just like CARB ignoring the weekend effect.
Yes, exactly.

Don't forget, the large particles that make diesel smoke black fall to the ground and are decomposed organically, not usually making it to the lungs anyway.

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Old December 10th, 2012, 09:47   #14
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Default Preliminary Particle Emissions from Gas-Hybrid Vehicles

A few studies have recently looked at real-world particle emissions from hybrids compared to conventional gasoline vehicles. One study looked at the hybrid and conventional versions of the Toyota Camry. The results may be surprising to some...

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...Across 5 replicate real-world runs, the average total cumulative particle number (3 to 3000 nm particle diameter) emission rates measured for the hybrid vehicle were two times higher than that of the conventional vehicle, despite the hybrid vehicle's internal combustion engine (ICE) being off 16 to 57% of the run duration....
Robinson, Mitchell K., Holmen, Britt A., "On-Board, Real World Second-by-Second Particle Number Emissions from a 2010 Hybrid and Comparable Conventional Vehicle."


This should be considered "preliminary" since the paper has not yet been published and thus has not been peer-reviewed (as far as I know). Nevertheless, it doesn't appear that hybrids are any better (actually worse in this study) than conventional gasoline vehicles with respect to particle emissions, even when running with the ICE off part of the time.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 10:05   #15
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Another very recent study on gasoline particle emissions...

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...In the case of diesels, the limit value necessitates the installation of very efficient wall particulate filters which have been shown to be equally or even more efficient in capturing sub-23 nm particles [41]. It is not clear however whether particulate filters will be required to control the particle emissions of gasoline vehicles. Port Fuel Injection (PFI) vehicles are generally found to emit below the diesel limit following the regulatory procedure [8], but were reported to exceed this threshold when a CPC with a lower cut-off size is employed [42]. Direct Injection Gasolines (G-DIs) were found to exceed the diesel limit by as much as one and a half orders of magnitude [8]....
Athanasios Mamakos; Urbano Manfredi, "Physical Characterization of Exhaust Particle Emissions from Late Technology Gasoline Vehicles." European Commission, Joint Research Centre, Institute for Energy and Transport, 2012 (Page 46)
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