PD Engine stalls when Hot; won't restart . .

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
. . . Until it has completely cooled down.

2004 Golf PD, 37,000 miles; Located in Mass. - time of issue is June 2006 - ambient temps in the 70-80s deg F. Everytime this has happened, I had at least 3/4 full tank of diesel.

After driving 2.5 hours (about 140 miles), then a lot of stop and go, I had trouble starting the engine - felt like air in the lines, so I tightened my hose clamps and it would start again. Then I start driving and it would stall out without warning (driving down hills, in stop+go traffic). I'd pull of the side of the road, let it cool down, then it would start again only to die about 3 minutes later. Towed it to the VW dealership and they noted that the glow plug light wasn't coming on and the engine wouldn't start. Let it cool down and the glow plug light comes on = engine starts. They said they'd hold it for the night, run tests in the morning, test drive it and let me know whats up.

Picked it up this morning and they VAG-COMM'd it and the TDI computer wasn't throwing any codes at all, so VW says they can't find anything wrong with it - they took it out for a 20 minute test drive and it ran fine, so they sent me home with my car.

Drove on the MASS pike from Pittsfield towards home (Leominster, MA), and it died on the pike in Springfield. Got it towed with AAAplus to the VW shop in Leominster (only to find that it is no longer a dealership as of last month = no warranty work at this shop). After the tow truck driver dropped the car (2 hour drive = adequate cool down period) = car starts and I was able to manuever it in the lot

Any suggestions?

I fear that it may be the glow plug relay?? - I thought I read something about this as a TSB (technical service bulletin??) and a number of these repairs have been required under VW warranty??

Does this issue sound anything like that?

The VW shop in Pittsfield never heard of it and the former Leominster VW shop said if there are no codes from the TDI computer, they will have a difficult time finding the problem too (and I'll have to pay for it since they don't do warranty work).

My closest VW dealership is about 35 miles away, and I don't think my car will make it without dying again. I bought my car used from a VW dealership, so I don't know if I have VW roadside assistance or not (I think I maxed out my AAA service for this year already).
 

v8volvo

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Location
WA
TDI
2001 Jetta
Problems in the GP system might affect starting, but they would not account for the stalling. Once a diesel is running, it's running until you stall it yourself, or turn it off. I think you're on the right track with a fuel supply issue...fuel filter? Loose line connections? Blocked pickup screen? Check those. Could also be related to the fuel-injection system. Check wiring connections, grounds, look for coolant migration, etc. Something is killing the fuel for some reason.
 

khill

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Midwest, USA
in tank fuel pump?

Mine failed in an intermittent fashion. There was no real pattern to it. Good luck, and do not leave home without your cell phone. KHILL
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Not sure if it could be the intank fuel pump since the engine only dies when it is at full operating temperature for about 30-45 minutes - then the other clue is that the glow plug light indicator does not come on at all after the engine stalls out.

When the engine cools down, the glow plug light indicator comes on for a brief moment and the car starts.

Is there any kind of temp sensor that would throw off the ECU, thus causing the engine to die when its at full operating temperature for the 30-45 minute time period?

If so, I would expect that a failing temp sensor would be detected by VAG-COMM?
 
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Stafford Virginia 22556
TDI
96 glx variant tdi
I've never seen a PD electrical system before. Since it's a hot running problem, I would guess something like a main power relay. Gets hot, a weak solder joint opens and the car dies. Joint cools off and closes the circuit again, car runs. Now, you just have to figure out which relay it could be. Go find a neighbor with a PD engine, and swap relays one at a time til you find the culprit.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
It does sound like a fuel starvation problem. Next time it stalls, make sure you can hear the in-tank electric feed pump come on when you turn on the key. McBew said you can hear the pump alot better if you lift up the rear seat. Both he (his mom's '04) and I have had the in-tank pump fail. No sound, pump no workie.

Another thought, is the VIN of your car within the recall range for the "tandem, pump recall"? That's the fuel/vacuum pump on the left of the cylinder head, driven by the camshaft. Some '04s and 05s had defective fasteners on the pump, causing fuel and air leaks and no run or poor running. The dealer should verify if it needs the pump replaced under the recall.

Third guess is the fuel filter got plugged. The dealer should put a new filter on it as part of the warranty work.

--Nate

--Nate
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Sheesh, is the relay 109, or is it the fuel pumperoni? Magic 8 ball says....

"Answer is murky."

No! Wait. Since we know that sometimes the glow plug light doesn't come on, that would indicate an electrical problem. Take a look at that Relay 109. Grey is good, Black is bad.

**Runs to look at my relay 109...**
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Relay 109 = Power Supply Relay??

The VW shop in Pittsfield said they swapped out my "power supply relay" with a brand new one, but it did not fix my problem.

Is the power supply relay the 109??

I'm going to bring it in to an "official" VW shop today or tommorrow.
 

TEM

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Location
Decatur, Illinois
TDI
04 Jetta 5m Platinum Grey TDI
I recently had a very similiar problem with my 04 Jetta PD. I thought it was the fuel filter. Changed it out, it seemed to fix it for a couple of days. The dealer said there was air in the lines. The car stalled on the road. I had it towed to the dealer, he purged the lines and they said it was fixed. The next day the hoopty barely started on my way to work.

I had noticed a diesel fuel odor in the cabin prior to this problem, checked for leaks and found nothing. Then a week or so later, the wonderfully engineered tandem pump began leaking fuel.

The dealer replaced the fuel pump under warranty, although I had 55k miles on it. That seemed to fix the problem, the car starts fine and runs fine.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Ry-dog said:
The VW shop in Pittsfield said they swapped out my "power supply relay" with a brand new one, but it did not fix my problem.

Is the power supply relay the 109??
yes it is.
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
TEM -

Was your VIN on the list that the recall was issued for?

I checked the list and my VIN is outside the range for the recalls. I was curious to know if yours had this problem and your VIN was outside the recall range too.
 

TEM

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Location
Decatur, Illinois
TDI
04 Jetta 5m Platinum Grey TDI
No. It was not on the VIN List. They gave me some crap about Passats being under the recall, but never heard of the problem for the Golf or Jetta.

I politely raised some hell and the service manager was nice enough to give me another. I think they are only under warranty for 24k. So I guess I was lucky they replaced mine with 55k on it.

I think he realized its very rare for a fuel pump to go bad in 2 years time.

Believe me, they will do anything in their power to not admit the pump is the problem.

I can't be 100% sure you have the same problem I had, but it sure sounds very similiar.
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Thanks for the info, TEM.

Did you notice whether your glow plug indicator light would be off when trying to start up?

I think my problem sounds similar too, but it has happened 8 times or so and the same theme always occurs - engine is at full operating temp for 30 minutes or so, then it dies. When I try to restart after the stall, the glow plug indicator light is OFF and won't even blink on for a second.

When the engine cools down, the glow plug indicator light comes back on, and the engine starts.

Thanks. Ryan
 

TEM

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Location
Decatur, Illinois
TDI
04 Jetta 5m Platinum Grey TDI
Mine died three times when hot. Just driving down the highway and bam, nothing. I only noticed the glow plug light off once, and that was the last time it konked out.

I had difficulty starting it during the morning. Once it got going it would run ok. Then I would park it for a while and I would have difficulty starting it again. But towards the end of this problem it would stall while I was driving. Always convenient when your in BFE.

Your problem may well be glow plugs, you never know with VWs and their 3rd grade electrical engineers.

Normally, if I have electrical working and the car won't start or run properly its a fuel managment system.

Then again we are talking VW.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
It is consistent with the relay 109. I'll just be surprised if it is the 109, I though the newer style was made better. However, cheap and easy to swap out.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
My vote is its a fuel starvation issue. One of the two fuel pumps must be on its way out. Check those first.

--Nate
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Drove it to the closest dealership yesterday after work (~30 miles one way). It made it no problem - after I parked it at the dealership, I tried starting it several times and it fired up everytime (glow plug light worked too). I was suprised - I figured it would definitely die on me.

Anyway, I took a very close look at my tandem pump and did not see any signs of leakage at all - my VIN is outside the range on the safety recall notice. I did include a copy of this notice when I dropped of my car in case they never heard of it.

I will post back when I get some answers - my guess is that they will find nothing wrong and send me on my way.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Ask them to check the intank pump! Intermitent failures are hard to diagnose. At least my pump failed suddenly, so the dealer had no problem finding my problem after my car was towed to them.

--Nate
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Stay on secondary roads and let the problem develop. Then, when it dies for good, it is easier to find.

Or the fire adjuster can find the source of ignition. :D
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Quick update

Dealership called today and they started getting into it this afternoon. They wanted to hear the issues again and were trying to replicate the problem by allowing the vehicle to idle in the parking lot!?!? I guess they thought it would heat up and stall itself out. I also thought you weren't supposed to let these TDIs idle.

Anyway, they didn't see any of the symptoms I described, but they took my word and started investigating the electrical system and the ECU. They explained that they can already see that there is a communication problem with the ECU and will do further diagnosis tomorrow. They classified this problem as and electrical problem for now . . .
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
Found It!!

Dealership has test driven my car several times and could not find my problem - they called me yesterday afternoon to tell me that they will check one more thing out and likely return it to me today.

Just got a call - they found the problem - the ECU is overheating, thus causing the engine to die when hot.

Ordered new ECU, will replace on Monday.
 

TornadoRed

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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Ry-dog said:
Just got a call - they found the problem - the ECU is overheating, thus causing the engine to die when hot.

Ordered new ECU, will replace on Monday.
I don't know, it seems strange to me that this would appear on a 2004 model with 37k miles. If the ECM was going to fail, it should have failed much sooner.

Keep us informed, Ry-dog.
 

d2305

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Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Location
Pensacola FL
TDI
14 Ram EcoDiesel
Wonder if this is another case of throwing parts at the problem and hoping it fixes the problem.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
I vote "yes" for the throwing parts issue. I'd bet that it has a bad relay or a bad ground.
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
They said they were basically stumped and had to rely heavily on their internal VW help support network. They were told that they have had other ECM (or ECUs) fail on the PDs within warranty period and symptoms appeared to match my problems.

They biggest clue that they had was that the glow plug light won't come on when the engine is hot = no start. This lead them to believe the communications problems were all related to electrical issues and they said the ECU (or ECM) is the brain that tells the iginition system to operate. If the brain is too hot (overheated), it does not give the proper signal(s) to the igintion system and won't start.

The stalling out when at operating temps for a long time - they say is also related to the ECU/ECM overheating.

You guys are taking the wind out of my sails - come on!! This is got to be it!!

Besides, isn't this unit a bit pricey to be just "throwing parts" at the problem or is this no big deal to VW?

I guess I'll know when I get the car back next week - I'll keep up with the post.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
rdkern said:
I vote "yes" for the throwing parts issue. I'd bet that it has a bad relay or a bad ground.
I'll say it one more time...... Did the dealer check (ideally replace) the electric in-tank fuel pump?

--Nate
 

Ry-dog

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Location
Central Mass
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportswagen
They said they did not replace the in-tank pump as they were fishing an electrical problem.

Would a failing in-tank fuel pump cause glow plug indicator light to not come on? I didn't think they would be related at all.

I hear where you are coming from - no start/stall likely caused by fuel starvation, but the no start/stall is also directly related to hot engine. The hot engine doesn't let the glow plug light come on = no start. Engine cools down, glow plug light on = start.

So, would a hot engine correlate/cause the in-tank fuel pump to intermitently fail?

Its been stressful borrowing a car and to finally hear that they identified the issue based on other warranties with similar problems made me optimistic that my car will be fixed. As it currently stands, I cannot trust my car for anything and I was afraid VW would send me home without doing anything. So when they called me yesterday saying they found the problem, I was pretty excited.

I will at least have the piece of mind that I have a new part in the car and keep positive that it won't die on me and leave me stranded again and again.

If this doesn't do it, then I'll press them hard on the in-tank pump.
 
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