LUK 17-050 clutch

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
"Wobble" revisited...

Wobble that I'm experiencing is happening between the DMF assembly and the end of the crank. It's like the DMF is teetering around on the crank end. These things are pretty heavy to be holding up steady. All bolts are running in, so it's not like I have things misaligned.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
"Wobble" revisited...

Wobble that I'm experiencing is happening between the DMF assembly and the end of the crank. It's like the DMF is teetering around on the crank end. These things are pretty heavy to be holding up steady. All bolts are running in, so it's not like I have things misaligned.
it should be fully seated over the crank boss and flat against the crank face before you start threading the bolts in
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
It's hard to tell because it's wobbling around on me: hard to hold, line bolt holes up and start tightening. I'll admit that I'm making it a bit hard in that I have the trans on the floor out in front of the crank end and I'm kind of trying to do this side-saddle. But, I don't think it would be any different if i were doing it head-on.

If I push on one side of the DMF it will shift a bit, like it's closing distance on that side (I can't quite tell- not really trying to over-emphasize this action).

If I were skewed then I'd think that it wouldn't be wobbling, the bolts would be pulling it a bit slanted off the boss in which case tightening would tend to stop it from wobbling (and it would seem that some of the bolts really wouldn't want to run in?).
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I guess I'm going to back out all the bolts and try this again, see if I can get the thing to sit flush/hold still while I get bolts started. Might first look to wrestle with it head-on to see if I can get a sense of whether it's seating flush: look for an even gap between the DMF and the block edges. Just can't see how one can hold one of these things in place while tightening bolts w/o having it shift around.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
It should sit nicely over the crank snout - they are the same diameter - like a rotor on a hub, it should fit over but not have any play.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Is one supposed to install these things with an alignment tool? The kit I got did not have one: ID Parts' site shows a picture of the kit with one, though they don't list it. I know that they are a must with SMFs.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
As the PP/flywheel/friction plate are preassembled, the friction plate is clamped in between and couldn't move/align even if a tool were used.

I haven't needed one on the three that I have installed.

Always a good idea to at least eyeball the concentricity / alignment of the friction disc splines to the hole in the crank.
 

flashmayo

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Location
Santa Cruz CA
TDI
'03 Jetta - Gator Tuned
I just received one of these clutch sets bought from Amazon for $157 plus tax, free delivery. The whole thing is assembled, so it should thread right in if lined up properly. I think if you get all the bolts started, or even 3 of them started, then get the flywheel firmly up against the end of the crank, you'd be able to hand tighten the three. Then install the other three.
It's probably wobbling just due to the weight and the sidewinder position you are coming at it from. Time to go knock on the neighbor's door for an extra hand.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Got a better head-on working position and decided that things had to be OK so I went ahead and tightened down on the bolts. After a bit they became a little easier to turn (I'm thinking this is the threadlocker?) and then they readily, and firmly, snugged up. The short 3/8" ratchet presented quite a strain on my arms and I was afraid that I could be stripping the bolts. Anyway, it was just a matter of ignoring the wobbling until I actually got bolts tightened down enough: I could see that shaft alignment was OK; and since all bolts were going in that meant that I had the right alignment on the bolts and holes as well.

I rummaged around a bit in the Bentley and in the clutch section there's no listing for torque specs. Sigh. I'm a bit lazy to rifle around any more so I grabbed a spec of 44 ft-lbs plus 1/4 turn from here. Could someone confirm that this is valid still, and for the DMF?
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
Got a better head-on working position and decided that things had to be OK so I went ahead and tightened down on the bolts. After a bit they became a little easier to turn (I'm thinking this is the threadlocker?) and then they readily, and firmly, snugged up. The short 3/8" ratchet presented quite a strain on my arms and I was afraid that I could be stripping the bolts. Anyway, it was just a matter of ignoring the wobbling until I actually got bolts tightened down enough: I could see that shaft alignment was OK; and since all bolts were going in that meant that I had the right alignment on the bolts and holes as well.

I rummaged around a bit in the Bentley and in the clutch section there's no listing for torque specs. Sigh. I'm a bit lazy to rifle around any more so I grabbed a spec of 44 ft-lbs plus 1/4 turn from here. Could someone confirm that this is valid still, and for the DMF?
that is the correct torque and it's also listed on the info sheet that should be in the luk box
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
My "box" was empty (except some packaging paper). I ended up finding the spec in another section in Bentley (it's one of those coin flip things on where to place that info- I'd figure it should go under the clutch section, but they put it in the engine- flywheel, which works, though moreso for an SMF I'd think).

Anyway, thanks for the support. All is going back together w/o further incident.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Following up...

I measured 24 lbs pedal effort on the wife's car and 30 lbs on my car. Interestingly the clutch in my car was (I just replaced it- see below) smoother than hers. Both are/were original clutches.

After seeing the dyno register 258 ft-lbs of torque on the wife's car (same config as mine) I decided to not take a chance on the Luk holding it and went with an DC Stage 1 clutch (from Bora Parts): much pricier, but I felt the peace of mind was worth it (if the Luk didn't hold the power then I'd be doing the clutch work all over again- time is too important to me).

I have about 400 miles on the DC clutch now. It's all that Bora Parts claims- smooth and quiet. When I get a chance I'll use the same methodology to measure pedal effort. The real measure, however, is how my wife finds it, and she says that she really likes it; so, I'll be putting one in her car.

All said, I'd still recommend the Luk 17-050 for anyone that's keeping their car stock (or no more than say a Malone 1.5 tune).
Well, I figured out why the clutch in the wife's car felt harder. Turns out it had a Valeo SMF in it. No idea how that ended up in this car: PO didn't mention it; I think he got the car with about 130k miles on it; we got it from him with 143k miles.

I just installed a Luk 17-050 in the [wife's] car. And, well, yes, the clutch is far and away easier (and that was a priority). I may look to check pedal effort in the same manner that I used to do those other checks. I'd also be curious to compare the clutch in my other Golf, it has an 02m (6spd) and a PD DMF: it's a very light clutch as well, though I am pretty certain that it is spec'd to handle more power. I backtracked on my earlier position regarding whether the Luk could hold the power of this car after finding that the son's car [acquired post my 2015 posting] with one of these clutches in it, similar sized nozzles but with a Malone Stage 3 tune (done after he got the car) seems able to hold the power.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
I just installed a Luk 17-050 in the [wife's] car. ..... I backtracked on my earlier position regarding whether the Luk could hold the power of this car after finding that the son's car [acquired post my 2015 posting] with one of these clutches in it, similar sized nozzles but with a Malone Stage 3 tune (done after he got the car) seems able to hold the power.

I was going to say that while I don't know the upper limits, the 17-050 I installed in the B4 Passat held just fine with the StageII and PP520s, as well as being a heavier car, along with a taller aftermarket 6th gear from Eurotuning.

Unless one was going wild with their tune/larger turbo etc, the 17-050 does well.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Her car had dyno'd mid-to-high 250s. Not real sure how accurate the dyno was. I DO know that her car tends to punch a little harder than the other cars (mine being configured the same): slight spike. ID Parts suggests that this clutch can hold 260 ft-lbs. I'm not sure if that is based on the general notion that one should go about 20% higher than what one expects to have/use: 250-ish plus 20% would push upwards of 300 ft-lbs. They also show the Valeo as being able to hold 230 ft-lbs. That, for the most part (she did experience a slip up a very steep hill, once, not long ago), the Valeo in the car held the existing power, would suggest that the Luk will be OK. I'd be kicking myself really hard if this doesn't pan out: not a real fun job doing clutches here.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Eh, everything is a compromise. If she can use the power "wisely", and not exceed the limits of the clutch, she'll have the best of both worlds - light pedal effort in a clutch that will hold the power her car makes.

That said, if she abuses (her perogative) the clutch and it slips, the only alternative will be something with better clamping force, but likely much higher pedal effort.

Just need to teach her the signs of impending slippage. :D
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Yeah, she understands. She'd experienced slippage with the old clutch not long ago (I think around 194k miles- quite some time before this I'd been targeting replacement at 200k miles). Going up that steep hill and experiencing (for the first time) the slip she then down shifted.

If anything, it's been ME that's been responsible for pushing for an easier clutch. I've always felt a bit guilty about being responsible for her switching from a newer car with an automatic. As mentioned, she'd diminutive; and, we're not getting any younger.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I put a 17-050 in my wagon a few years ago and it never held. Bad idea. But I was making about 300 lb/ft at the time. Mild tune, or mild tune and nozzles should be OK, but I think that's the limit. This is not the same clutch as VW put in the '99.5 MKIV cars.
 
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jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I put a 17-050 in my wagon a few years ago and it never held. Bad idea. But I was making about 300 lb/ft at the time. Mild tune, or mild tune and nozzles should be OK, but I think that's the limit. This is not the same clutch as VW put in the '99.5 MKIV cars.
yeah, they are only rated for about 275 so of course it slipped out of the box, that being said my well broken in 17-050 held up pretty good behind a 17/22 and pd150 nozzles... proper break in is critical on these clutches
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Perfect timing! I was wondering what folks here considered was a proper break-in process. Read lots of different answers from out on the Internet and best I could come up with was to run it fairly easy for about 500 miles. That is what I did with the clutch in my car (DC Stage 1) and that appears to have produced good results.
 

03TDICommuter

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
Old thread, but appropriate subject. Does the Luk kit come with flywheel bolts?

My 'new to me' 01' NB is slipping with a Malone stage 1 in 5th with heavy throttle. (224K miles on original clutch). I'm making a shopping list and so far from reading everything, I should get the Luk kit, a new pivot ball for the fork, and the clip for the fork. Anything else like bolts? Which bolts can be successfully re-used?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Kit comes with flywheel bolts. You will need new transmission and dogbone mount bolts, those are single use.
 

williambill

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Location
Dry Prong, LA
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
RockAuto lists this clutch for $186 plus shipping. Installed one in an ‘02 Jetta (not mine) a few years back. Very nice kit and loved it. Be sure to get your one time use bolts like IBW mentioned above. Got mine from Idparts.
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
I was considering getting this kit as well, however I learned that the clutch itself is not sold separately from the DMF. So in other words you need to buy a whole new kit if the clutch needs to be replaced.

Went with the G60/VR6 conversion instead. Was more expensive but sachs clutch is sold separately . Very nice action and feel, totally worth it and chatter isn't very significant at idle.
 

03TDICommuter

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
I was considering getting this kit as well, however I learned that the clutch itself is not sold separately from the DMF. So in other words you need to buy a whole new kit if the clutch needs to be replaced.

Went with the G60/VR6 conversion instead. Was more expensive but sachs clutch is sold separately . Very nice action and feel, totally worth it and chatter isn't very significant at idle.
I understand your logic for a SMF, but for a DMF I keep reading that the DMF itself usually fails before the clutch disc. And at $200 shipped for the whole set, it's not that bad a price.

BUT - how do you like the G60/VR6 conversion? Any downside?
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
I understand your logic for a SMF, but for a DMF I keep reading that the DMF itself usually fails before the clutch disc. And at $200 shipped for the whole set, it's not that bad a price.

BUT - how do you like the G60/VR6 conversion? Any downside?
Both my previous Jettas had the original DMF but the clutch was either replaced or needed it done. Whether the LUK DMF is more durable is a factor however due to the low price it seems doubtful. Since DMFs are failure prone anyway, It seems logical to just eliminate it altogether and use a SMF. That and the lack of a LUK standalone replacement clutch assembly was my thinking anyway.

The only downside is the chatter at idle. The VR6 clutch is very light and easy to engage. I had an '03 golf with the SBC Stage II Daily/ G60 and the G60/VR6 is lighter, better for daily driving. VR6 can hold Malone stage II just fine.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
The OE Sachs clutch in mine has right at 300k miles on it and is still working fine. It WILL obviously need replaced at some point, but I'm not sure how you argue with that service life for any clutch....
 

03TDICommuter

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
The OE Sachs clutch in mine has right at 300k miles on it and is still working fine. It WILL obviously need replaced at some point, but I'm not sure how you argue with that service life for any clutch....
Nice! If I didn't do the Stage 1 Malone, I'm sure mine would have lasted that long. Going to start ordering parts, and start looking up how painful it is to change on a beetle. In the meantime I'm being careful with the throttle.
 
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